43 replies to this topic

[Pardoux]

"Hidden" rules are, I admit, a bit of a pain in the #SS, I admit

Maybe it's time for the cows to come out with something more definitive about WHAT IS and WHAT ISN'T acceptable - as "we treat all cases on their merits" is too vague now, I think ..

[yghorbeviahn]

"Hidden" rules are, I admit, a bit of a pain in the #SS, I admit

Maybe it's time for the cows to come out with something more definitive about WHAT IS and WHAT ISN'T acceptable - as "we treat all cases on their merits" is too vague now, I think ..

I really think that shouldn't have rules for doing game things, if it's not acceptable create some kind of code to make it impossible to happen, players should not need to think 'it's better I don't attack again because that could be considered a rule breaking', well, play with all tools the game allows you to play.

We all know those 'relic wars' have happened since day 1, the problem is just by talking about it on pvt messages? 

I say to just let that option open, guilds should be able to defend the relic they control the way they want to, and the attacking guild should be allowed to take the relic the way they also want to.

[EpicPiety]

PvP has no correlation to "relic defense", its borderline menacing.

Edited by EpicPiety, 27 August 2015 - 11:18.

[yotekiller]

PvP has no correlation to "relic defense", its borderline menacing.

Says the person in favor of all reward and no risk in pvp.  Some people want the bonuses given by relics more than others and are willing to go the extra mile to get them.  You know, self sacrifice for best interest of the guild and all that.  PvP and relics have been intertwined since day one and always will be.  If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to help your guild then perhaps you need to find a new guild.

[EpicPiety]

Says the person in favor of all reward and no risk in pvp.  Some people want the bonuses given by relics more than others and are willing to go the extra mile to get them.  You know, self sacrifice for best interest of the guild and all that.  PvP and relics have been intertwined since day one and always will be.  If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to help your guild then perhaps you need to find a new guild.

PvP is a two way street anyways. Easy ways to shut it down . Seeing that the cows punish sometimes for it i'll just listen to them as they treat it as "menacing". If you ask me pvping is a cop out to do with relics. IE you can't defend the relic properly so you resort to it .

Edited by EpicPiety, 27 August 2015 - 11:58.

[Kedyn]

I think a great solution to all of these issues is to remove stamina gain from relics altogether. Leave the XP gain, and the one or two relics with gold gain, but remove stamina gain completely. Leave relics to giving bonuses to stats and enhancements. 

 

Back to the OP, I don't think more stamina gain is needed in this game - you can already get some ridiculous amount with epics, which at the end of the day, are pretty cheap. If you want the highest tier epics, then you may be paying a little more, but the payback period is less than a couple months for most epics now. I remember doing the costing benefit whenever the KKH and Ogaliths first came out, and they were like 1-2 years payback period if you were using them 24/7 at the price of 25 stamina.  

[EpicPiety]

I think a great solution to all of these issues is to remove stamina gain from relics altogether. Leave the XP gain, and the one or two relics with gold gain, but remove stamina gain completely. Leave relics to giving bonuses to stats and enhancements. 

 

Back to the OP, I don't think more stamina gain is needed in this game - you can already get some ridiculous amount with epics, which at the end of the day, are pretty cheap. If you want the highest tier epics, then you may be paying a little more, but the payback period is less than a couple months for most epics now. I remember doing the costing benefit whenever the KKH and Ogaliths first came out, and they were like 1-2 years payback period if you were using them 24/7 at the price of 25 stamina.  

lmao thats just not an option

[Kedyn]

lmao thats just not an option

 

Why not? Removing stamina gain on relics is definitely an option. HCS has made changes before to relics (ie giving them % bonuses rather than just plain). If they feel that they want to remove it, I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

 

Would it make some of the higher guilds who "prize" these relics mad? Probably, but it's not a game changer. 

[EpicPiety]

Why not? Removing stamina gain on relics is definitely an option. HCS has made changes before to relics (ie giving them % bonuses rather than just plain). If they feel that they want to remove it, I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

 

Would it make some of the higher guilds who "prize" these relics mad? Probably, but it's not a game changer. 

Would anger anyone who put countless resources into protecting them. Doing that is the same thing as suddenly changing the amount of fsps you get from donating permanently. Or changing a chest from a skill level 750 to 500. Not an option at this point too much invested...and clearly a troll idea imo. What does that do other than anger people? Whose benefiting? Clearly no one. TBH just takes another fun aspect out of the game.

Edited by EpicPiety, 27 August 2015 - 15:19.

[Maehdros]

A little off topic, but I gotta say, relic wars are awesome! Very team building and you see just how well a guild and it's members can work together unselfishly.

[EpicPiety]

A little off topic, but I gotta say, relic wars are awesome! Very team building and you see just how well a guild and it's members can work together unselfishly.

+1

[Calista]

If a 'leveling' guild can use their higher level members to 'defend' a relic, why can't a 'pvp'  guild play to their strength as well, and defend a relic with pvp?  We can't keep another guild from going after the relics we want, but we should be allowed to make it uncomfortable for them. Why tie one hand behind our backs?

 

It wasn't always like that, that the communication was frowned on in a war. It became that after several wars where HCS stepped in and used diplomatic messages against us to stop wars dead in their tracks. Telling another guild we were just defending the relic started to be seen as a 'threat' by HCS. But the last time,  Grim called us bullies and went off about how we couldn't hide behind the 'no demands' or 'no messages' policy we had started practicing. So even that wasn't working to follow the rules, per HCS. 

[EpicPiety]

If a 'leveling' guild can use their higher level members to 'defend' a relic, why can't a 'pvp'  guild play to their strength as well, and defend a relic with pvp?  We can't keep another guild from going after the relics we want, but we should be allowed to make it uncomfortable for them. Why tie one hand behind our backs?

 

It wasn't always like that, that the communication was frowned on in a war. It became that after several wars where HCS stepped in and used diplomatic messages against us to stop wars dead in their tracks. Telling another guild we were just defending the relic started to be seen as a 'threat' by HCS. But the last time,  Grim called us bullies and went off about how we couldn't hide behind the 'no demands' or 'no messages' policy we had started practicing. So even that wasn't working to follow the rules, per HCS. 

PvP is not defending the relic lmao... IDC what you do and how many pvp hits you do its not going to "capture" the relic for you. Nor is it stopping someone from capturing. PvP is something the cows don't want mixed with relic wars. There really is no argument there it is what it is. There are plenty of things i dont like but i generally shut up and accept them overtime.

Edited by EpicPiety, 27 August 2015 - 16:27.

[Calista]

Most people are clearly one side or the other.  The disagreement doesn't happen on the level of 'the relic belongs to HCS'. Everyone agrees with that. Where the sides fail to agree is how far a guild should be allowed to go to defend the relics. If I am hit  by a prestige hitter, I hit 'em back harder to make them go away and leave me alone. If another player hits my guild mate, I help drop them levels so they go away and leave my guild mate alone. If another GUILD comes along and hits my GUILD and takes the relics we are defending,  guess what tactic I want to use to make them go away? 

[EpicPiety]

Most people are clearly one side or the other.  The disagreement doesn't happen on the level of 'the relic belongs to HCS'. Everyone agrees with that. Where the sides fail to agree is how far a guild should be allowed to go to defend the relics. If I am hit  by a prestige hitter, I hit 'em back harder to make them go away and leave me alone. If another player hits my guild mate, I help drop them levels so they go away and leave my guild mate alone. If another GUILD comes along and hits my GUILD and takes the relics we are defending,  guess what tactic I want to use to make them go away? 

IMO pvping someone is just overall stupid...i can easily just bounty every hit and you lose out 5-10x more than the person you hit. Easy to pvp protection up too...so many counters to it . If people want to pvp to "protect" a relic i say let them but i'll be dropping them 10x more levels with hardly any effort from me lol. The problems pvp cause is generally nasty communication starts. Thats probably most of the problem the cows have. That and SOME PvPers used to/still consider it a trophy to pvp someone out of the game lol.

Edited by EpicPiety, 27 August 2015 - 16:47.

[yotekiller]

IMO pvping someone is just overall stupid...i can easily just bounty every hit and you lose out 5-10x more than the person you hit. Easy to pvp protection up too...so many counters to it . If people want to pvp to "protect" a relic i say let them but i'll be dropping them 10x more levels with hardly any effort from me lol.

So you use the BB to make it uprofitable for people to hit you in pvp. Great, that is certainly your right just as it is the right of all guilds to use pvp to make relic attacks unprofitable for the opposing guilds. See how easy that was? Problem solved, carry on.

[EpicPiety]

So you use the BB to make it uprofitable for people to hit you in pvp. Great, that is certainly your right just as it is the right of all guilds to use pvp to make relic attacks unprofitable for the opposing guilds. See how easy that was? Problem solved, carry on.

Not really about being right or wrong here ... just discussing ...There are clear problems with letting it happen and also problems with not allowing it. Ideally if everyone behaved themselves and or don't have bad intentions it would be more or less fine. But we all know that's not the case. Overtime people tend to forget it was over a "relic" and it turns into something far more personal. That's the root of the problem right there.

Edited by EpicPiety, 27 August 2015 - 16:56.

[Calista]

IMO pvping someone is just overall stupid...i can easily just bounty every hit and you lose out 5-10x more than the person you hit. Easy to pvp protection up too...so many counters to it . If people want to pvp to "protect" a relic i say let them but i'll be dropping them 10x more levels with hardly any effort from me lol. The problems pvp cause is generally nasty communication starts. Thats probably most of the problem the cows have. That and SOME PvPers used to/still consider it a trophy to pvp someone out of the game lol.

 

That's why a PvP guild goes on lockdown when the fighting starts, and no messages are allowed to be sent. In my experience, most pvp guilds will kick those breaking that rule in order to protect themselves and stop the trash talking. That was the first change made to try and fix it. Only leadership was allowed to talk to opposing guild. Then the messages sent by leadership were ripped apart, and asking for even a simple apology was making a demand and therefore not allowed. So my guild cut it down so that only the diplomats in the guild would talk to the opposing guild. All I was allowed to say was something along the lines of we were just defending the relic, we had no requests for anything, and directed any further messages to HCS as we were no longer allowed to speak. But even mentioning the relic was considered a threat, so typically the diplomats don't say too much either, and usually then not until approached first. At least that was the point it got too before I stepped out of the diplomat position and left it to nicer people.

 

 

Edit: I was not ever the diplomat for my current guild. That position is well covered. I was a diplomat in the past for another well known pvp guild. So there is no confusion.

Edited by Calista, 27 August 2015 - 17:24.

[Belaric]

Most people are clearly one side or the other.  The disagreement doesn't happen on the level of 'the relic belongs to HCS'. Everyone agrees with that. Where the sides fail to agree is how far a guild should be allowed to go to defend the relics. If I am hit  by a prestige hitter, I hit 'em back harder to make them go away and leave me alone. If another player hits my guild mate, I help drop them levels so they go away and leave my guild mate alone. If another GUILD comes along and hits my GUILD and takes the relics we are defending,  guess what tactic I want to use to make them go away? 

 

O/T to relics. 

 

This is a really interesting point, and one which might help illuminate why PvP participation is less than desired.

 

PvP is used, by Calista's admission to make people go away and either leave her, in the case of a prestige hitter, or her guild mate alone. Leave me alone or I will hit you very hard and /or drop you levels until you leave me alone seems to be the message intended.

 

If you make enough people leave you alone, will you not after a while wonder where the PvP action has gone?

 

How many of the people who now leave you alone, will also have just decided not to bother with the PvP aspect of the game, given the punishment they got for hitting Calista for prestige, or her guildmate for any reason that is deemed worthy of retaliation and/or dropping levels?

 

Maybe they will hit other less abrasive targets for a while, but ironically they will avoid precisely the players who most want PvP action in the game. So is wanting to be left alone what you really want?

[Calista]

I can not speak for every pvp player in that aspect. I can speak for myself. I became a pvp player because I was tired of being hit, or my friends being hit, and everyone being to scared to defend me. The game handed us a perfect way to stick up for ourselves, but our very refusal to use it made it not work. I was frustrated with being a founder and not being able to give my members any defense.  I remember starting the game being very scared of pvp. I didn't want to lose my xp I was working hard for. Then I eventually started bounty hunting, through the encouragement of players like Daleck and Moonfrost, and I learned alot about pvp. I started to realize that there was 2 sides to the story and as I met people I just naturally gravitated further into the pvp game style.