179 replies to this topic

[Hoofmaster]

So how does the following values look for the maximum gold cost of Hell Forging:

 

Upgrade 1) 75,000

Upgrade 2) 150,000

Upgrade 3) 300,000

Upgrade 4) 600,000

Upgrade 5) 1,500,000

 

Total cost: 3,300,000 gold

 

+ the 2 Fallen Sword Points per level as before.

 

Also the bonus would be split as it currently is so if the item has two stats, at Hell Forge level 5, it would gain +25 to each stat or +5% (whichever value worked out higher).

 

Note I've also talked to BigGrim and the gold creatures drop will be around 300 again in the next content update

[Belaric]

So how does the following values look for the maximum gold cost of Hell Forging:

 

Upgrade 1) 75,000

Upgrade 2) 150,000

Upgrade 3) 300,000

Upgrade 4) 600,000

Upgrade 5) 1,500,000

 

Total cost: 3,300,000 gold

 

+ the 2 Fallen Sword Points per level as before.

 

Also the bonus would be split as it currently is so if the item has two stats, at Hell Forge level 5, it would gain +25 to each stat or +5% (whichever value worked out higher).

 

Note I've also talked to BigGrim and the gold creatures drop will be around 300 again in the next content update

That seems pretty cheap to me.... but I am a mad crazy fool and never stopped hellforging my hunt gear - FF 1600 items all the way!! 3.5million for the final forge? Sure! I was deranged! I stopped hellforging (mostly, still did it a couple of times after the new content came out and I wanted to FF some Kummars boots to hunt in) after my gold/hunt plummeted post 1625 and I was not generating enough gold to forge and maintain guild gold, it became either/or. If the gold/monster gets readjusted up then I will be inclined to start forging my offline gear again with each hunt, as I used to do that pre 1600.

 

Just saying that there are people who kept going beyond 700 with Forging, though I will concede to it not being the statistically smartest thing to do.

 

I don't care if you make it cheaper. I won't cry about my 'wasted' gold. I hit the hellforge button of my own free will.

 

When was the last single stat item? MOM spear? LOL!

Edited by Belaric, 11 December 2013 - 13:11.

[Jonah Tebaa]

I honestly think that gold cost should not be touched.

It is unfair for those who already paid heaps to forge. Plus, a cap on cost is unfair when the reward is a percentage addition to stats. That means that the five forges on an item with 1000 attack and 1000 damage will add 500 attack and 500 damage to it, while a lower level item with half the stats would get half the bonus.

With this fix, instead of lowering the cost, we would have increased the reward to be propportional to the cost.

[jinks]

Im seriously confused about hell forging, Ive just looked at the current system, and cannot for the life of me work out how it is worked out.

 

I used FS Calculator to work out what the stats should be for fully forged Pounamu Warriors Retribution, and its different to what it actually shows in my BP.

 

Did Hell Forging already get changed once?

 

The explanation on the actual forging page doesn't make sense either, it says +50 stat points, plus +1 stat point for each 50 levels.

 

That works out at +82 for a 1600 item, but the actual increase is 105 (which appears to be a total of each level gain)

 

Can anyone explain it for me?

[Staid]

So how does the following values look for the maximum gold cost of Hell Forging:

 

Upgrade 1) 75,000

Upgrade 2) 150,000

Upgrade 3) 300,000

Upgrade 4) 600,000

Upgrade 5) 1,500,000

 

Total cost: 3,300,000 gold

 

+ the 2 Fallen Sword Points per level as before.

 

Also the bonus would be split as it currently is so if the item has two stats, at Hell Forge level 5, it would gain +25 to each stat or +5% (whichever value worked out higher).

 

Note I've also talked to BigGrim and the gold creatures drop will be around 300 again in the next content update

 

 

A final gold cost of 3,300,000 gold to FF 1 item equates to FF'ing a level 709.67742 item. (odd choice, but okay, whatever)

 

Add to that the gold equivalent of the 10 fsp that are also required in this FF'ing (180,000gold/fsp) and you get 5,100,000 gold.

 

Do that 9 times to FF just one 9 piece suit, and you get 45,900,000 OR 255fsp total, which averages out to 28.3333fsp/item

 

OMG - Now precisely what % of the FS population do you really think is capable of, or even willing to part with 255fsp every time they want to FF just one suit? That's actually more than the typical player spends on a decent 9 piece suit. (And now it's for a combined stat bonus of 10%, not a 10% across the board stat bonus to all stats?)  Ugh....no.

 

Please refer back to the post that I, yet again, put a lot of time and thought into creating and is located immediately prior to Hoof's lunchtime post today. http://forums.hunted...e=5#entry829184 You'll find that I already raised this very issue (of looking at total forging cost of a 9 piece suit), show some examples of various solutions, sincerely ask that we take a step back to observe the big picture before determining a solution based on the FF'ing of 1 single item, and request that the resources of the average FS player be taken into account.

 

Thank you,

Edited by staid, 11 December 2013 - 15:26.

[Hoofmaster]

I honestly think that gold cost should not be touched.

It is unfair for those who already paid heaps to forge. Plus, a cap on cost is unfair when the reward is a percentage addition to stats. That means that the five forges on an item with 1000 attack and 1000 damage will add 500 attack and 500 damage to it, while a lower level item with half the stats would get half the bonus.

With this fix, instead of lowering the cost, we would have increased the reward to be propportional to the cost.

 

It would add 50 attack and 50 damage, not 500

[Leos3000]

Hoof as now I am unsure of what you mean with your forging change. Can you clarify how each level of forging will work?

Is it:

Level 1 1% added to stats (total 1%)
Level 2 1% more added (total 2%)
Level 3 1% more added (total 3%)
Level 4 2% more added (total 5%)
Level 5 5% more added (total 10%)

Or something else?

Also you. Last proposal on cost is at least much more affordable then it was.

[Vladimir00]

Im seriously confused about hell forging, Ive just looked at the current system, and cannot for the life of me work out how it is worked out.

 

I used FS Calculator to work out what the stats should be for fully forged Pounamu Warriors Retribution, and its different to what it actually shows in my BP.

 

Did Hell Forging already get changed once?

 

The explanation on the actual forging page doesn't make sense either, it says +50 stat points, plus +1 stat point for each 50 levels.

 

That works out at +82 for a 1600 item, but the actual increase is 105 (which appears to be a total of each level gain)

 

Can anyone explain it for me?

 

It should come out to +210 for a lvl 1600 item. The bonus is +1 per HF level for every 50 levels, so if you forge everything 5 times, you're getting +5 additional stat points for every 50 levels. 1600/50 = 32 x 5 = 160 + 50 =210.

 

Given the total stats of those items, that's an increase of a little less than 6%.

Edited by Vladimir00, 11 December 2013 - 16:06.

[Kedyn]

Hoof as now I am unsure of what you mean with your forging change. Can you clarify how each level of forging will work?

Is it:

Level 1 1% added to stats (total 1%)
Level 2 1% more added (total 2%)
Level 3 1% more added (total 3%)
Level 4 2% more added (total 5%)
Level 5 5% more added (total 10%)

Or something else?

Also you. Last proposal on cost is at least much more affordable then it was.

 

Hey All, 

 

Leos has a great proposal here for how the % should work when it comes to forging - having the % jump up more for the 5th forge will make it worth paying the extra (whatever the amount is) rather than just using the HF up to level  4 and level 5's cost outweighing the benefits (as most of the time it does now).

 

I still feel that 7.5% increase for each stat would be nice (and yes each stat is fine with me) as it would bring in a bonus for the older 3 line items with the Hell Forge cost at about 5 million total (that's about 25 FSP at 180,000 gold to fully forge and converting the 10 FSP into gold costs instead) - which keeps Hell Forging cheaper for the higher levels, but keeps a bonus that makes it worth forging items.

 

However, as people have pointed out, an increase at 7.5% each stat may be an overpowering amount, but would make it possible for the Epic Forge buff to have more of an effect. If 7.5% was used for each stat, or even 5%, it will make hunting easier than it already is. I'm looking at the bonus stats to Hell Forging more for other aspects of the game - titan hunting around your level, GVG, PVP etc., and the stat bonus for FF gear there would make a difference in stats so that it may make people want to FF gear rather than having the minimal difference. At 25 FSP per item, it is a little expensive for FF an entire 9 pieces (250 FSP), but I believe it would be worth the cost for the increase in stats. If it becomes a gold sink at 5 million a piece above say lvl 750 (or whatever level), and drops Marketplace gold down to 165k/FSP, it's still only 30 FSP per FF item - which calculates out to be about 270FSP for a FF 9-piece set.

 

Edit: I've looked through Staid's proposed post about keeping the cost of about 100 FSP total all-in cost for a 9 piece set, and I would agree this would make it much easier and cheaper for normal players to FF gear, but with a 5% bonus, I feel that this may be too much of a bonus for too little a cost. I think the idea is great, but maybe cut the bonus % for FF gear for the cheaper offset of cost. I think Hell Forging, if the increase is worth the cost, should be a gold sink for the game. 

Edited by Kedyn, 11 December 2013 - 16:30.

[Hoofmaster]

It should come out to +210 for a lvl 1600 item. The bonus is +1 per HF level for every 50 levels, so if you forge everything 5 times, you're getting +5 additional stat points for every 50 levels. 1600/50 = 32 x 5 = 160 + 50 =210.

 

Given the total stats of those items, that's an increase of a little less than 6%.

 

Using a perfect crafted Pounamu Warriors Retribution as an example, here are how the Hell Forge bonuses look currently and how they would look with the new system:

 

Non-upgraded stats:

Attack: +887

Damage: +2713

 

Then the Hell Forge bonuses would look as follows (Old / New):

 

Upgrade 1: (+5 / 1% split)

Attack: +906 / +891

Damage: +2732 / +2726

 

Upgrade 2: (+10 / 2% split)

Attack: +924 / +896

Damage: +2750 / +2740

 

Upgrade 3: (+15 / 3% split)

Attack: +943 / +900

Damage: +2769 / +2754

 

Upgrade 4: (+25 / 5% split)

Attack: +964 / +909

 

Damage: +2790 / +2780

 

Upgrade 5: (+50 / 10% split)

Attack: +992 / +931

Damage: +2818 / +2849

 

 

Looking at it like that - I don't think it works splitting the percentage. If we look at this again without splitting it it would give the following:

 

 

Upgrade 1: (+5 / 1%)

Attack: +906 / +896

Damage: +2732 / +2740

 

Upgrade 2: (+10 / 2%)

Attack: +924 / +904

Damage: +2750 / +2767

 

Upgrade 3: (+15 / 3%)

Attack: +943 / +914

Damage: +2769 / +2850

 

Upgrade 4: (+25 / 5%)

Attack: +964 / +931

Damage: +2790 / +2849

 

Upgrade 5: (+50 / 10%)

Attack: +992 / +986

Damage: +2818 / +2984

 

 

So I think it would actually be ok to not split the % based on the amount of different stats the item has. As for gold cost, some think is two cheap while others are saying it is two expensive. I think around the 3 million mark + Fallen Sword Points would work out ok

 

Thoughts?

[Kedyn]

 

 

So I think it would actually be ok to not split the % based on the amount of different stats the item has. As for gold cost, some think is two cheap while others are saying it is two expensive. I think around the 3 million mark + Fallen Sword Points would work out ok

 

Thoughts?

 

 

So you're estimating about 25-30 FSP based on market place prices - I don't think that's too much at all for the increase in stats. My only worry would be the total 10% each stat might be overpowering as Doom had mentioned yesterday. While 1 item such as Pounamu would be a total increase of 360 points (split between attack/damage), over 9 pieces of the same stats (total 3,600 points unforged/uncrafted), that would be an additional 3,240 points. I'm not sure how much of an effect this would have for buffs etc, but just wanted to throw some numbers out there while thinking about the total 9 pieces rather than 1 piece at a time.

[cyrus7]

As for gold cost, some think is two cheap while others are saying it is two expensive. I think around the 3 million mark + Fallen Sword Points would work out ok

 

Thoughts?

 

I still think it should be based off income from creatures for the item level, however 3M is a lot cheaper than it would currently cost me to forge level 1500+ stuff, so if that's your final offer, I would go with that over the current system.

[jinks]

I think 3 mil + fsp is reasonable for the stat increase

[Hoofmaster]

So you're estimating about 25-30 FSP based on market place prices - I don't think that's too much at all for the increase in stats. My only worry would be the total 10% each stat might be overpowering as Doom had mentioned yesterday. While 1 item such as Pounamu would be a total increase of 360 points (split between attack/damage), over 9 pieces of the same stats (total 3,600 points unforged/uncrafted), that would be an additional 3,240 points. I'm not sure how much of an effect this would have for buffs etc, but just wanted to throw some numbers out there while thinking about the total 9 pieces rather than 1 piece at a time.

 

At 10% it would be an additional 166 stats points in damage. If we changed it from 10% to 7.5% it would be an additional 98 stat points in damage.

[jinks]

I think looking at those stats, 10% is a reasonable return for the cost.

Is the gold cost capped or based on an equation relating to level of item?

[Kedyn]

At 10% it would be an additional 166 stats points in damage. If we changed it from 10% to 7.5% it would be an additional 98 stat points in damage.

 

I think it would be reasonable. I didn't take into account that with the current system, lvl 5 hell forge would be a total addition of 210 points. An increase in total stats of 150 points over 9 items wouldn't be an overwhelming amount.

 

Would the 10% be applied to each stat in 3 stat items as well? 

Edited by Kedyn, 11 December 2013 - 17:27.

[Hoofmaster]

I think it would be reasonable. I didn't take into account that with the current system, lvl 5 hell forge would be a total addition of 210 points. An increase in total stats of 150 points over 9 items wouldn't be an overwhelming amount.

 

Would the 10% be applied to each stat in 3 stat items as well? 

 

I think it would be ok to apply to to 3 stat items as well since the total stat points aren't really increased but instead split across the 3 stats.

[Kedyn]

I think it would be ok to apply to to 3 stat items as well since the total stat points aren't really increased but instead split across the 3 stats.

 

That was my thinking as well - maybe we can see a rise in new 3-stat gear in the future when the updates are made? I know the new fad are 2 piece 2 stat gear, but I don't see why we can't bring back the 2 piece 3 stat gear

 

On a side note - all is good here - I think the community has done a pretty good job discussing this one through. I personally feel that cost vs. increase in stats is a good combination at 3mil gold + 10 FSP - the only question becomes at what level. My guess would be when Hell Forging gold costs > 3.3 mil for 5 forges would be the start level.  

Edited by Kedyn, 11 December 2013 - 17:48.

[Vladimir00]

 

Using a perfect crafted Pounamu Warriors Retribution as an example, here are how the Hell Forge bonuses look currently and how they would look with the new system:

 

Non-upgraded stats:

Attack: +887

Damage: +2713

 

Then the Hell Forge bonuses would look as follows (Old / New):

 

Upgrade 1: (+5 / 1% split)

Attack: +906 / +891

Damage: +2732 / +2726

 

Upgrade 2: (+10 / 2% split)

Attack: +924 / +896

Damage: +2750 / +2740

 

Upgrade 3: (+15 / 3% split)

Attack: +943 / +900

Damage: +2769 / +2754

 

Upgrade 4: (+25 / 5% split)

Attack: +964 / +909

 

Damage: +2790 / +2780

 

Upgrade 5: (+50 / 10% split)

Attack: +992 / +931

Damage: +2818 / +2849

 

 

Looking at it like that - I don't think it works splitting the percentage. If we look at this again without splitting it it would give the following:

 

 

Upgrade 1: (+5 / 1%)

Attack: +906 / +896

Damage: +2732 / +2740

 

Upgrade 2: (+10 / 2%)

Attack: +924 / +904

Damage: +2750 / +2767

 

Upgrade 3: (+15 / 3%)

Attack: +943 / +914

Damage: +2769 / +2850

 

Upgrade 4: (+25 / 5%)

Attack: +964 / +931

Damage: +2790 / +2849

 

Upgrade 5: (+50 / 10%)

Attack: +992 / +986

Damage: +2818 / +2984

 

 

 

Oh... by "splitting the percentage", you meant increasing each stat by 5% at level 5. That actually isn't the same as increasing the total stats by 10%, then splitting them. I was thinking it would work something like this (To keep things simple, I'm just going to assume these are at level 5 instead of listing the stats at each level)...

 

 

Non-upgraded stats:

Attack: +887

Damage: +2713

Total Stats: 3600

 

So just increase the total stats by 10% (360), and split those points between the two stats to get:

 

Attack: 1067

Damage: 2893

Total Stats: 3960

 

Increasing each stat by 10% actually increases the total stats by the exact same amount (360).

 

Attack: 976

Damage: 2984

Total Stats: 3960

 

The only difference between these two options is that the second adds 360 points by adding 89 to attack and 271 to damage, while the first splits the points evenly and adds 180 to each.

Edited by Vladimir00, 11 December 2013 - 18:06.

[Hoofmaster]

Oh... by "splitting the percentage", you meant increasing each stat by 5% at level 5. That actually isn't the same as increasing the total stats by 10%, then splitting them. I was thinking it would work something like this (I'm just going to assume these are at level 5 instead of listing the stats at each level)...

 

 

Non-upgraded stats:

Attack: +887

Damage: +2713

Total Stats: 3600

 

So just increase the total stats by 10% (360), and split those points between the two stats to get:

 

Attack: 1067

Damage: 2893

Total Stats: 3960

 

Increasing each stat by 10% actually increases the total stats by the exact same amount (360).

 

Attack: 976

Damage: 2984

Total Stats: 3960

 

The only difference being that sice the percetages were applied individually to each stat, the upgrade stats favored damage instead of being evenly distributed.

 

That actually makes more sense I think - that would make the example look as following (working out the increase based on the total stats)

 

Upgrade 1: (+5 / 1%)

Attack: +906 / +905

Damage: +2732 / +2731

 

Upgrade 2: (+10 / 2%)

Attack: +924 / +923

Damage: +2750 / +2749

 

Upgrade 3: (+15 / 3%)

Attack: +943 / +941

Damage: +2769 / +2767

 

Upgrade 4: (+25 / 5%)

Attack: +964 / +997

Damage: +2790 / +2803

 

Upgrade 5: (+50 / 10%)

Attack: +992 / +1067

Damage: +2818 / +2893

 

That seems reasonable...