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#61 Windbattle

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Posted 04 October 2021 - 21:02

Anyone have a link to the original debate on this from years ago? Would be interesting to see what arguments where made for and against back then as compared to now.



#62 BadPenny

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Posted 04 October 2021 - 21:20

Anyone have a link to the original debate on this from years ago? Would be interesting to see what arguments where made for and against back then as compared to now.

I don't have a link, but if memory serves me correctly, many of the major points here were the same then as well...  


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#63 EpicPiety

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 13:12

How about in addition to the OP also adding a beginner section to the arena above novice where you can get up to 500 wins and participate there. You currently learn nothing in the novice arena section, needs another step. It would have inferior rewards to regular arena, but join costs might be a little bit lower. 


Edited by EpicPiety, 05 October 2021 - 13:13.


#64 shindrak

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 15:25

How about in addition to the OP also adding a beginner section to the arena above novice where you can get up to 500 wins and participate there. You currently learn nothing in the novice arena section, needs another step. It would have inferior rewards to regular arena, but join costs might be a little bit lower. 

Players with less than 500 win can join it and can join standard tourneys too

so it wouldn't affect activity on standard tourneys.



#65 Alisa

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 19:13

How about in addition to the OP also adding a beginner section to the arena above novice where you can get up to 500 wins and participate there. You currently learn nothing in the novice arena section, needs another step. It would have inferior rewards to regular arena, but join costs might be a little bit lower.


I like that. A bracket after novice for players below 500 wins. Kinda similar to skill base matchmaking in other games. Would be nice avoiding demons like shindrak and master Tilly for a bit :)

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#66 kitobas

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 23:54

Well I know some players will say it will be open to abuse but if someone want to abuse they can just do it outside guild ... 

 

Arena is big part of the game !  give everyone chance to play smoothly without this restriction , its a game at the end and  Arena pretty much clear if someone wants to abuse they will get caught and what's the point of play a game without integrity !   This will boost Arena and the market pretty much ...

 

I hope HCs to rethink and open serious discussion about it ..

I will answer you with your own postings before you joining mirkwood guild

 

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you was one of players who against changing 25% arena rule and using logic, you having very many postings and everyone can looking in forum for seing

 

 

I'm sure more players from biggest guilds will jump in and will have no time to join before tourneys start if you weren't active enough !

Not to mention how this will make a move in the market very well more players will buy gears and gold to forge and craft...

Result is More Activity and More donations for HCs and More updates to FS.

bro, I knowing 100% that you knowing what you writing not true because in other forums you posting you writing opposite of this. I thinking in last years all forums creating to changing or removing 25% arena rule is from only 1 guild calling minions of mirkwood and many players saying this is not game problem, this is minion of mirkwood problem and why should game changing because of 1 guild? everyone can going to forum and search it

you saying it bringing more activity but you only writing half truth, you not saying who it bringing more activity, the more activity will coming from those who have problem with 25% arena rule and that meaning it will bringing more activity for minions of mirkwood

 

I mean who is going to put that much effort to ask other players to join without gears or something , Not worth it and those players will lose their integrity for FS community ...

please not talking about integrity, there players who are knowing in community for losing integrity because they doing cheating, scripting, hypocricy, lying, trolling for getting ill satisfaction from others misery ............. or players / guilds knowing these players wrong (cheating, scripting, hypocricy, lying, trolling for getting ill satisfaction from others misery) and still accepting

 

worst example is santa who everyone in comunity who was titan hunting knowing is worst scripters, he doing many times cheating and worst time was he alone hunting against over 40 titan hunters from different guilds, big guilds was ffs, ted, wal and many others and santa got epic drop doing more than 50% kills alone against over 40 hunters lol, 1 player doing more kills than over 40 players together lol, everyone knowing this because fs box and shout box was crazy with postings about cheater, you remember? this was around time where you and your friend eviltrace was titan hunting and I hunting against you times

 

if you saying this old then I having recent one, everyone knowing about AH bug but is everyone knowing that there was not 1 AH bug but 2 bugs? first one I not needing explaning it giving you free fsps but second one was giving you free items, I will not saying players name but he your guild member and he selling cheap epics to my friends, after he getting banning by HCS and it coming out that he was abusing bug to getting free items my friends afraid they would getting banning too because they buying from him, they not knowing he getting these epics with bug

if you asking why I telling this story it because you saying Not worth it and those players will lose their integrity for FS community  but that not true and you having proof in your guild

after hcs banning this player more than one month he sudenly coming back and how did he lose his integrity? very short he becoming leader in your guild

prove what I saying is truth is HCS (hoofmaster) and many in your guild who honest want saying truth

 

I giving 2 storys about your guild to showing you that argumenting with players losing integrity of fs comunity meaning nothing, it can happening in other guilds too, some guilds accepting or even rewarding these bad players, integrity is free to interpretation of players (I not knowing if I writing this in good english language but meaning is clear) and that reason why there need be HCS rules

 

 

Defender medal is actually extremely difficult and takes alot of time and investment. Also almost nothing would change in regards to arena medal difficulty. 

that not true and you knowing it, getting defender medal is very easy, I 100% sure you was getting messages from players who asking if your guild wanting improving defender medal because they send messages to many of the top guilds

some guilds accepting and getting 2-3 hours from no defender medal to highest diamond medal and only needing little stamina to do it, I will not writing how because I not supporting that way

 

 

The 25% Guild mate arena rule should be changed to the following.

 

Joining with all your own gear = bypass 25% rule

Joining with Guild Tagged gear = 25% rule applies

like others telling you years ago in many forum postings it is not FS problem it is minion of mirkwood problem, why need game changing for 1 guild if others not having problem and ok with them?

 

with your bypass 25% rule if own gear you can getting in theory all your guild members taking all arena spots, if this is not abuse then your interpretation of abuse is not normal

what happen if big guilds like ffs and ted do same too then it becoming arena only for mom, ffs and ted and very bad for all guilds in comunity

 

EpicPiety, I even posting picture of your now leader shindrak who telling you that your changing 25% rule will be benefiting for big guilds but very bad for all other smal guilds in comunity

 

HCS will never accepting it because this very easy abuse and they already saying no to you many times

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everyone in game can looking in forum for proof and I will always saying no to abuse


Edited by kitobas, 06 October 2021 - 00:19.


#67 Undjuvion

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 00:19

*stuff*

 

Shin isnt allowed to change his opinion, he is factually untrue, please....



#68 EpicPiety

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 00:28

stuff

You posted stuff from over 6 years ago. Didn't understand about 90% of it but irrelevant regardless. Also keep in mind there is a fresh HCS team with fresh idea's about modern gaming :).

Arena has nothing to do with your guild aside from what i laid out. Bring out any point proving this and i'll join the conversation. If you have nothing to say point taken.

 

If you are worried about "so called abuse" you should be lobbying for it to be made against the rules, which it is currently allowed and possible. Once it is against the rules no need for rule :). I am 100% on your side arena boosting should not be allowed.

P.S. shin point is moot he was talking about tagged gear which i covered. Not to mention gear is now affordable by all that play the game. Not many sets worth more than 1 fsp perfect. 


Edited by EpicPiety, 06 October 2021 - 00:45.


#69 Undjuvion

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 00:35

ive read all of this thread, my opinion has wavered since this issue began, i think it is true that anyone can exploit it already, the point tho, is that it is limiting arena play if you are in a guild with a number of arena players, times have changed, people arent limited to ingame channels, HCS could def give this a rethink!

 

edit: i'd like to thank EP for bringing this up again and changing my mind to thinking it is indeed beneficial.


Edited by Undjuvion, 06 October 2021 - 00:38.


#70 EpicPiety

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 00:49

ive read all of this thread, my opinion has wavered since this issue began, i think it is true that anyone can exploit it already, the point tho, is that it is limiting arena play if you are in a guild with a number of arena players, times have changed, people arent limited to ingame channels, HCS could def give this a rethink!

 

edit: i'd like to thank EP for bringing this up again and changing my mind to thinking it is indeed beneficial.

Anytime Juvi Rock on, i really do feel like when people break this down logically they will come to the same conclusion.



#71 kitobas

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 01:04

NJ posting stuff from over 6 years ago. Didn't understand about 90% of it but irrelevant regardless. Also keep in mind there is a fresh HCS team with fresh idea's about modern gaming :).

Arena has nothing to do with your guild aside from what i laid out. Bring out any point proving this and i'll join the conversation. If you have nothing to say point taken.

I knowing you understanding what I writing and pictures I posting of your guild mate, biggrim and hoofmaster quotes but you deciding in your head to not accepting it because shindrak, biggrim and hoofmaster having very good english better than me

 

thank you for showing again your character, you always doing it, it not mattering if it is logic or fact, you not caring, your guild creating many times forum for changing 25% rule and everytime biggrim saying no but you ignoring and making after some time same topic, even you getting into argument with hoofmaster after he making poll and telling you no, he explaining to you but you deciding ignoring again like always

 

you not wanting understanding that what good for your guild, it not meaning it good for comunity too

 

even after biggrim and hoofmaster will telling you again 25% rule will not changing for reason, you will ignoring because it your way or no way and this reason why continue posting here will be pointless

 

I will always supporting ideas that good for comunity but never only for certain group like this idea

 

all having good day


Edited by kitobas, 06 October 2021 - 01:06.


#72 Undjuvion

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 01:13

I knowing you understanding what I writing and pictures I posting of your guild mate, biggrim and hoofmaster quotes but you deciding in your head to not accepting it because shindrak, biggrim and hoofmaster having very good english better than me

 

thank you for showing again your character, you always doing it, it not mattering if it is logic or fact, you not caring, your guild creating many times forum for changing 25% rule and everytime biggrim saying no but you ignoring and making after some time same topic, even you getting into argument with hoofmaster after he making poll and telling you no, he explaining to you but you deciding ignoring again like always

 

you not wanting understanding that what good for your guild, it not meaning it good for comunity too

 

even after biggrim and hoofmaster will telling you again 25% rule will not changing for reason, you will ignoring because it your way or no way and this reason why continue posting here will be pointless

 

I will always supporting ideas that good for comunity but never only for certain group like this idea

 

all having good day

 

EP isnt ignoring them nor arguing with them, he is reasoning with them, we all are, they always require feedback, you are astute tho, cunning too, for i dont know why you would see arena players and the arena left bled, perhaps cos u have 6 arena wins?



#73 EpicPiety

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 01:17

thank you for showing again your character, you always doing it, it not mattering if it is logic or fact, you not caring, your guild creating many times forum for changing 25% rule and everytime biggrim saying no but you ignoring and making after some time same topic, even you getting into argument with hoofmaster after he making poll and telling you no, he explaining to you but you deciding ignoring again like always

"Arena has nothing to do with your guild aside from what i laid out. Bring out any point proving this and i'll join the conversation. If you have nothing to say point taken."

 

 

even after biggrim and hoofmaster will telling you again 25% rule will not changing for reason, you will ignoring because it your way or no way and this reason why continue posting here will be pointless

 

They are welcome to join the conversation, i challenge them to delve deeper into that "reason" whatever it may be (Which I am very curious to discuss with them if they choose to share).

 

 

I will always supporting ideas that good for community but never only for certain group like this idea

The OP treats every guild and individual equally.

 

 

Kito please explain to me the advantage from having more guild mates join an arena (Outside of guild tagged gear which i addressed)? Afaik none exist as it would make sense because arena is a solo activity.


Edited by EpicPiety, 06 October 2021 - 01:18.


#74 TheCount

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 01:42

I can understand arguments for and against changing this rule, honestly. I just don't see the chances of it being abused any easier than it already could be being high enough to limit a guild to 25% of the players in a tournament. Maybe it could be looked into how often members of large guild were locked out of tournaments, that's probably the most important fact that should be brought up. I remember while I was in FFS there was very rarely a time where I was unable to join an arena.

 

On another hand I think almost every aspect of PvP is dead or dying. Giving more players the ability to join arenas, which is a competitive PvP Arena where guildmates can and do lose to one another, might allow arenas to resolve quicker. If it has that chance I'm all for it.

 

Would also like to see a few new potions added to the Arena Shop. I could throw out some examples but I don't think this is the appropriate thread to go that in depth.



#75 kitobas

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 03:57

Kito please explain to me the advantage from having more guild mates join an arena (Outside of guild tagged gear which i addressed)? Afaik none exist as it would make sense because arena is a solo activity.

ok, I will giving you explanation but in return you treating same and giving explanation too and not ignoring it please, I give respect and you give respect back

my english not good and I using translator for helping

 

because you OP, I will using your guild for example I writing here, it simple:

this only players from your guild who having around or more than 1000 arena wins

ArtziK, 2zina, PowerLegi, Tilley10, leos3000, SuOkWinter, shindrak

arena having 8 and 16 players who can joining

your guild having 7 members who having around 1000 arena wins and they having most own gear

 

Joining with all your own gear = bypass 25% rule

Joining with Guild Tagged gear = 25% rule applies

because you know your rules not existing in game I can only give theory like everyone else but I using logical thinking that everyone can easy see too and understanding

 

if we adding your 2 EP rules for 8 player arena:

it meaning 2 (25%) can joining with guild gear and 6 who having own gear can filling all 8 spots from same guild (100%)

 

if 16 player arena:

4 (25%) can joining with guild gear and 7 who having own gear can filling 11 spots of 16 from same guild (that around 70%)

 

that meaning for 8 player arena your guild can having 100% spots and for 16 player arena around 70%

 

this can leading to monopoly because it will increasing your guild chances very much (best example is before cooldown only 1 guild in game was having monopoly of epics, this everyone knowing and can asking admin)

 

but this is not worse what your 2 rules do, if you adding other top guilds who having many top arena players with own gear it becoming very difficult and hell for other guilds

 

there many worst case and one of worst case is this:

ffs, mom and ted joining and will having most and fighting each others for monopoly 

if we adding your 2 rules for 8 player arena with other big guilds ffs and ted too

it meaning 6 (75% from only 3 big guilds) can joining with guild gear and very many who having own gear can filling all 8 spots from same guild (100%)

 

if 16 player arena:

12 (75% from only 3 big guilds) can joining with guild gear and very many who having own gear can filling 4 spots of 16 from same guild (100%)

 

this examples I giving very simple and easy understanding if using little of brain and math for 10 year olds

 

I can saying truth and it will increasing activity but you need to understanding for whom it will increasing activity and this is why I keep asking epicpiety to answering because he knowing it will increasing actity for his guild (big guilds) and if you use logic then what happens to players in smal guilds whos chances will decreasing (because of this 2 rules)?

logic saying that when chance decreasing then high chance they will stopping 

 

if you still not undertanding or want to give excuse that arena is still solo or other excuses then this:

 

everyone in game knowing you can not doing bountys on your guild members but if wanting only increasing pvp activity then allowing guild members doing bountys on each other would increasing activity

this will increasing activity very much but at what price?

yes bounty board is solo activity but why do you think HCS make rule that same members can not doing bountys on eachother? yes, it is because of abuse

players can trying arguing (same argument with arena that you can giving friends outside guild the items to wear) I having friends outside guild that can doing my bounty, that true but because of this HCS rules (guild members can not doing bounty on same members and 25% arena rule) abuse becoming more difficult

 

we can doing extreme thing:

as much as I wanting seing removing pvp attack ranges I knowing it will bringing very high activity but is this really good for game and at what price?

everyone here knowing it will increasing pvp activity but it will benefiting one group and not all of comunity and making abuse more easy because of many things (eoc can hit level 1, stat difference, no pvpers .....)

 

question for everyone:

will you accepting if a idea will increase activity (for certain groups, not for comunity) but increases abuse very high?

yes or no?

 

 

for epicpiety:

if we adding your 2 EP rules for 8 player arena:

it meaning 2 (25%) can joining with guild gear and 6 who having own gear can filling all 8 spots from same guild (100%)

 

if 16 player arena:

4 (25%) can joining with guild gear and 7 who having own gear can filling 11 spots of 16 from same guild (that around 70%)

 

that meaning for 8 player arena your guild can having 100% spots and for 16 player arena around 70%

1) is simple thing what I writing above this true? yes or no, it very easy question that can saying yes or no with explanation

2) for who exact will your 2 rule increase activity, give details because I showing it will not increasing for comunity but certain (big groups) and with more players from same guild can joining then logic it meaning higher chance players of this guild can winning

3) with your 2 rule will it be possible for 1 guild to get all 8 arena spots? if yes then logic saying it will increase abuse

 

I taking long writing using translator helping with words because you saying you not understanding 90% of what I writing but picture postings of shindrak, biggrim and hoofmaster in other pots you and everyone should having no problem understanding

I have asking this 3 very easy questions that simple on purpose and willl waiting if you will ignorning them, only saying no and ignoring explanation or this time answering like I doing with yours with full explanation


Edited by kitobas, 06 October 2021 - 03:57.


#76 Alisa

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 04:35

ok, I will giving you explanation but in return you treating same and giving explanation too and not ignoring it please, I give respect and you give respect back

my english not good and I using translator for helping


I taking long writing using translator helping with words because you saying you not understanding 90% of what I writing but picture postings of shindrak, biggrim and hoofmaster in other pots you and everyone should having no problem understanding

 

could mean his not understanding your reasoning? i understand your writing just fine.


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#77 shindrak

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 09:48

...

Dear Kitobass ,

you brought posts 6 years old , Situation is different now days we need more activity ..

If i said something now it doesn't mean it will be valid after 5 years .

 

I had my opinions in the past it doesn't mean it is 100% right , Some player's changed my opinion with their Facts .

 

This thread is made to give suggestions and opinions not to bring 6 years old posts here...

 

See EP suggestion to make novice II bracket for new players and players below 500 win

 

Also See Toreth's post , you will understand why i changed my 6 years old opinion about guild rule.  :)

 

 

I think something like this is the fairest you can be while making changes to help the arena, otherwise you run into the potential for a guild to monopolize the arena.

  • Guild Members Capped at 50% Entry
  • Half of That Can Use Tagged Gear

With 8 and 16 man Tournaments, it still means that 4 or 8 people, respectively, from a single guild can enter any individual tournament.

 

 

Not to come off cross, but if you truly have "mastered almost all areas of the game" then you would have a firm grasp on the realm of the arena as well. I'm not saying you don't know how to complete things semi-effectively, but "mastered" is a strong word. 

 

 

On the value of arena items, let's look at a general breakdown:

 

8 Man Tournament For Prize of 32 Tokens

  • Winner: 32 Tokens
  • 2nd Place: 16 Tokens
  • 3/4 Place: 8 Tokens

That means there are 64 Tokens coming into the game during an 8 Man, 32 Token Tournament currently. A Guild can have 2 people enter, so they can realistically win 48 of the 64 Tokens, or 67%.

 

16 Man Tournament, 32 Tokens

  • Winner: 32 Tokens
  • 2nd Place: 16 Tokens
  • 3/4 Place: 8 Tokens
  • 5/6/7/8 Place: 4 Tokens

That means there are 80 Tokens coming into the game during a 16 Man, 32 Token Tournament currently. A guild here can have 4 people enter, so they can hold 80% of the winnings.

 

 

If the arena were to change to something along the lines of "50% of the entries can come from a single guild where half of those can use guild tagged gear," then we can take a look at a separate breakdown.

 

8 Man, 32 Tokens

  • Winner: 32
  • 2nd: 16
  • 3/4: 8

Hmm...strange...the total number of tokens coming in doesn't change from 64, so that would mean market value of all arena items would maintain. So what changes? Well, if a guild can now have 4 entries here instead of 2, then the guild has the potential to hold 100% of the tokens from the tournament.

 

And what of a 16 Man?

 

16 Man, 32 Tokens

  • Winner: 32
  • 2nd: 16
  • 3/4: 8
  • 5/6/7/8: 4

So again, the total number of tokens coming into the game doesn't change from 80. The only thing that changes is a guild has the potential to hold 100% of the tokens from the tournament.

 

 

"That sure does sound like a monopoly, though!" Sure; kind of, until you work out that some of those entries are going to be occupied by Clare, Woopy, Shin, Juvi (occasionally), Sohail (occasionally), who all have more than the potential to knock anyone out at any time; not to mention the RNG factor of the pairings of the first round.

 

Take MoM for example: Shin, Winter, PowerLegi, Tilley - we're already at 4 there. What are the chances that 2 of the 4 of these WON'T meet each other in the 1st round if the 25% of total GUILD entries is increased to 50%? Just so you don't have to do the work, it's 7.9% in an 8 man tournament or 0.3% in a 16 man tournament. On top of the percentages being fairly telling that it isn't going to happen that often, you then have to take into account for those individuals losing as well - nobody wins 100% of the time, so again, there is no monopoly occurring.


Edited by shindrak, 06 October 2021 - 09:56.


#78 Windbattle

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 10:09

On another hand I think almost every aspect of PvP is dead or dying. Giving more players the ability to join arenas, which is a competitive PvP Arena where guildmates can and do lose to one another, might allow arenas to resolve quicker. If it has that chance I'm all for it.

I think a good number of people just join arenas for the DQ unless they are an arena pro. 

 

Although I'm done with this thread till the cows actually speak on it. We could all argue for and against all day long but its pointless till the devs comment on it, which they might not do since it was discussed and ruled on 6 years ago. Interestingly enough, I think that is when app development started and less attention was given to the game itself. 


Edited by Windbattle, 06 October 2021 - 10:15.


#79 Toreth

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 14:15

kito, I implore you to look more at the larger picture here.

 

The original idea was posted to gain traction on an idea that could use a "refresh;" EP didn't elaborate too much on what he may have thought out as he has a tendency to jump the gun sometimes before fleshing his idea out fully, but I can assure you that nobody will ever "fight" or "push" for a guild to enter into EVERY spot in an arena. That would indeed be too much and potentially cause a monopoly. Take a look at the rest of the thread as there are other ideas aside from what EP's original post laid out; it seems capping at 50% of guild entries (up from the current 25%) is gaining traction with quite with the added caveat that only 50% of that 50% would be able to use guild tagged gear. Either way, you're looking at a max number of entrants from a single guild as 4 in an 8 man tournament or 8 in a 16 man tournament.

 

I also took a gander at your screenshots from BG, Hoof, and Shin from many years ago and while I understand what was said then, we also have to be cognizant of how things change over time. Many years ago, there was more of an abundance of players around who participated in arena. Now, the player-base as a whole may not even match the number of active arena players. Much like how life changes, FS needs changes to promote the activity that's needed for the community to thrive.

 

You also bring up AH bugs, and while I wasn't around for the one, the second you're misinformed on, and I ask you to PM the individual you're speaking of instead of speculating on what occurred if you're interested. I think you'd be surprised at what may have happened contrary to what you've been told.

 

All-in-all, I see you're advocating for keeping things how they are, and that's totally fine - everyone's opinion should be taken into consideration, however, I'll be the one to outright tell you that your opinion on the matter is wrong given the state the game is currently in. The change to 50% could be a breath of life to the arena in helping cycle things through - more people able to enter arenas more quickly = more varying levels of arenas for people to learn setups + combinations of moves, gold cost of arenas staying at a higher rate (gold being sunk more), and overall market value stays relatively the same. There isn't really a downside.

 

And again, before someone brings up "there's a possibility that a guild holds 100% of the tokens from an arena at 50%," sure, there is a "chance" but that is such a statistical anomaly that you're probably better off playing the scratch-off lottery or shooting a hole-in-one on a par 6.



#80 EpicPiety

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 14:29

I'd be willing to compromise to 50% change, however I'd still want guild tagged gear to stick to 25%. 




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