Kizaaz

My only problem with some of those ideas ..well mainly one is the multi ip one... Me and Vinny are on the same ip because we live together. We are both in oc. I don't think we should be banned from being in the same gang...

@Nastasha

 

Follow-up question A: "Why did you have fun as Rogue compared to being in a gang?"
Not answering because you didnt read my answer correctly so it is pointless

 

Follow-up question B: "Would it truly upset you if transition from Rogue to new gang was slightly more enjoyable (able to enter wasteland for those that choose to)?"

 You're choice of words is astounding to get your point across. It reminds me of the lawyers I know.
Personally, ya it honestly would upset me about the wasteland thing... Should being rogue be a lil ore enjoyable sure why not.. but wasteland.. NO

Follow-up question C: "In either case, do you feel your view is a reflection of every single new player we might get into the future?"

again, your choice of words is astounding,. No obviously I am not going to have the same views as every single new player...(As you can clearly see our views are not the same here), \
But the same could be said about your views.  If YOUR view a reflection of every single new player we might get in the future? Goes both ways.

 

Follow-up question A: "Can you try and imagine if you were actually able to choose your initial gang?"

Ive answered this somewhere before. I dont like to choose my own gang. I would rather be put somewhere, i honestly would. Ive imagined it and i dont like choosing. end of story
 

Follow-up question B: "Might you have had a better player experience early in if you felt more in control at the start?"

I loved my player experience so no, i dont think it could have been better. It has nothing to do with control. Its the people that make the experience


Follow-up question A: "Am I to believe that one can not both read about there gang politics, as well as experience it first hand? (is it a matter of either-or?)"

Did I say that anywhere in my post? No, I didnt. Your questions asked SPECIFICALLY about MY experience. I have already explained my stance on this when it comes to learning about the gang.
You can read all you want in a damn library book about a gang, and fall in love with what is written on the pages... but then shattered when you get there and find it completely different.
For example Ill use TC this time.
They are corrupt, or at least meant to be. Yet last time i was there it was constant Penis jokes and the like.. Not at all like it was in the "research" you would find.


Follow-up question: "Do you still answer or have you answered on side-chat or in messages questions of how to switch gangs?"

Actually if asked I will answer, but majority dont ask actually because I have a feeling its pretty easy to find


Follow-up question: Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a screen-shot walk-through of how to "leave a gang" and "join a gang" of any variation is less then 10 clicks? If so, please show. If not, why not?

Yes, I can as I have explained before. When Rep is not taken into account. (Which it shouldnt at the levels you are claiming are leaving (1-5), or if you are higher then that if you have enough rep to not be able to join a gang.. you are not a new player anymore
I cannot show you the how to join a gang as I am not leaving y gang to take screenshots for this.. sorry cant do that


So if everyone is different, might it make sense to plan for new players to have a low-capacity for learning/patience instead of a high one?

I said I had low, very low patience... if I can get through it many people can..

Yes or no. Is it a matter of fact that presently Side Chat is an unreliable/inconsistent source of important information for brand new players?"

BOTH, it has gotten a lot better since I was a newbie. They actually help now, so no.. presently... its not unreliable source of information.



Follow-up question A: "Might a secondary use of wasteland be possible, such as to show new players a glimpse at what gang territory and the wasteland is in the first place?"

Anything is possible really... so yes it would be possible, but it is not something that would better enhance the game.. sorry it just wouldnt be


Follow-up question B: "Might a hypothetical Rogue Wastelander realize his Rogue option is not as cool as moving to a gang of their choosing, and interacting on the Wasteland help in their decision?"

If there was no rogue wastelander.. then this question wouldn't even need to be asked. |
Already there is no rogues allowed in wastelands, so they would join a gang to join wastelands...what your suggesting is adding an unnecessary step to the equation.
Wasteland is for gangs..Not rogues


My question A: "Yes or no? Is it common practice for gang welcome messages to make switching gangs simple for every new player?"

No, why would a gang advertise how to leave their gang. IF asked they will answer but its not in their welcome message that's just idiotic to be honest

My question B: "Yes or no. Doesn't communicating with a rank 11 take additional perfect clicks for a player to perform their desired goal, rather then if they knew how to do it on their own?"

I dont understand how being rogue is going to teach you all these new things, and in a quick time, faster and more efficiently then another player..Unless I'm missing this thing about clicking ( because honestly the clicking point is about as moot and pointless as they come),
I found it easier to have a fellow gang member tell me where to find things, ( or guides) then it did for tutorials.

My question C: "Yes or no. Would it be a bad thing if rank 11's were able to focus more on polishing player's advanced learning/playing, instead of basic game mechanic teaching?"

Rank 11s job are to introduce the newbies to the gang, its politics, and basic game mechanics. I dont quite know what you mean about this first part though.. But from what i understand.
I think it would be more detrimental then helpful.


My question A: "Yes or No? Do you mean to say that you believe Rogue Viability would mean no new players are ever able to leave Rogues?"

Ok for one this cannot be a yes or no question because You word it so that if i said one thing, it proves your point, and if i say another thing it makes me look like an ignorant idiot.
Ive said this from the start, my experience was best learned by interactions not stupid library books. I AM NOT LIKE EVERYONE, I dont know how you can just lump all the newbies together in
these questions.. I really dont.
I dont understand where you go the " No new players are ever able to leave rogues" idea came from.. I never said it, nor did i Insinuate it...


My question B: "Yes or No? Do you believe Rogue Viability would make moving to a gang of their choice impossible?"

Im about to skip some of these questions based on the fact your wording questions and making them yes or no only answer but yet you word them that the only plausible answer that doesnt make me look like an idiot is the one you can run with to make your point.
Lawyers, again do this all the time.. they're called leading questions...

I never said it would make their choice impossible.. never even mentioned it.. where did this even come from ?

 

Follow-up question: "Yes or No? Do you believe a majority of players of any given game would prefer to be confused, over having a seamless experience?"

This is the worst leading question I have ever seen.
OF COURSE people don't want to be flippin confused.. doesn't mean that this game is  as confusing as you keep saying it is. I would be stupid to say " ya! thats totally what people want"..because obviously they don't...

so the only plausible answer is no.. and therefore you think it proves your point.. but in truth. It shows you can have a proper question and answer debate without trying to make the odds in your favor..

 

My question A: "Yes or No? Did every player you speak to stay playing the game?"

No, obviously not. Since i said some of the players have told me why they LEFT...so if they left.. they didnt stay playing the game did they..

My question B: "Yes or No? Might the players that did leave not have told you exactly why they left?"

Leading question.
Well considering majority of the players who have told me why they left were people were people i have continuous contact with through the guide job (answer questions sending revives, etc etc) I would have to say they have no reason to not tell me


My question C: "Assuming players left, did you remain in contact with those that did and have them answer why exactly they left in detail?"

Uh no. Some, yes because they were people I knew offsite
Others that were random sign ups, nope, no way to contact them.
this is a silly question. Im not a stalker...

My question D: "Might what you heard from some players be a poor reflection of why all players stop playing?"

No, it's the reason why they stopped playing. I dont group a certain group of players together like you seem to be doing through this entire debate. Ive never said the reason for all lowbies leaving was because of this, I have said the ones I have spoken to.


My question E: "Yes or No? Might more players stick around, if doing things they want to do in-game was easier?"

nope, if it was too easy they would get bored and leave... oh wait.. some already have



Most important question: "if you realized you were incorrect in your earlier assumptions, would you admit you made a mistake? Would it contribute to you forming a new opinion?"

If i realized I was incorrect I would admit it, But I stand by my opinion I have more cons in regards to this rogues viability, then mistakes ive made.



 
 

@Nastasha, I will split this into 2 parts-

answering your questions comes after

 

RE: I am curious of why you had fun as Rogue?

 
You seem to have misread my comment. You asked a two-part question... My yes, was to the first part... "have you ever been rogue"

 

 

RE: Sorry, it wasn't obvious to me. So I am correct in assuming the auto-assign algorithm did not in fact place you in the gang you had hoped for? Also I am curious if you had less initial patriotism to said gang you were in before you made the choice to move, and more for the gang you did move to?

I assumed it was obvious because in my previous stated comments, I had already mentioned I was not in my home gang... and we were also in DF together. yet Im not in that now, so it should have been obvious

No, you are not correct in assuming, since I hadnt hoped for a certain gang at all. I shared the same amount of "patriotism" as you call it in all gangs that I was in. I spent over a year in each gang before I settled here in OC.

 

 

That leads me to believe the customs and expectations of you were not immediately obvious to you as a new player. It required further reading, or further learning. I can see that and that makes sense. However I am confused why you mentioned your last sentence

 

Let me rephrase this so its better understanding.. I could read the books all day. and it would NEVER prepare me for the gang. I started in Bod, which is the gang of honor. It never confused me

what that meant. One look at the forums or even chatting with a rank 11, showed me the personality and if the rank 11 does their welcome message right, you will also get a feel for what the gang stands for. The customs and expectations were never not obvious to me. For the record.

 

 

RE: Well that is fortunate. Given that during that flurry of everyone (making their own choice) moving to the gang of their actual choosing, a lot of people were moving so it was a hot topic in SC. I am sure you can agree it is no longer a hot topic, so your experience is different now then new players.

 

 

I dont quite understand what this has to do with me... There was never an abundance of "moving to the gang of their actual choosing"...It was the same amount of people moving when I started that there is now.. Nor was it a "hot topic" so no, I will not agree with that statement. and It is not different from when I was new..


RE: I am skeptical, and I do not believe this is the case. I will go on record and say that if you prove this with screenshots that it is that easy to "Leave Gang", then less then five clicks to "Join Gang" of any selection (reputation included in this discussion) I will admit I am incorrect if you prove this point. That would make my argument about this being too complex for new players a moot point. Please prove me wrong?

 

I  will provide screenshots if i really need to... Cuz it does take 3 ( 4 with confirmation screen) to leave a gang.
And also. to join gang is also less than 5, reputation should not have any effect on this because if they have enough reputation to not allow them into a gang... then they are no longer "new players" Imo.
Not to mention you keep talking about levels 1-5... at those levels you would NEVER EVER EVER have too much rep to join a gang.

 

 

RE: Thank you. I tend to agree. I feel Side Chat is a very hit-or miss resource for newbies, and at many times counter-productive and harmful resource for newbies. I think we are all pretty aware of this, so I will see if we can finalize this train of thought.

 

This is what guides and rank 11s are for, Unfortuneatly sidechat is not always going to be a reliable resource. But believe it or not.. its gotten way better

RE: This statement seems like an oxymoron to me. It is a bit ironic. It sounds like you are saying because switching gangs is confusing, reaching out to rank 11s will do the task for them? Or (pardon my confusion) that rank 11s have a magic ability to move new players to any gangs with a simple request? In my mind, one must first realize they are confused (after lots of clicking around), then find out who the rank 11s are, then send the message, then wait for response, perhaps some correspondence back and forth (adding to the click count), then eventually stumble some more to figure it out. Only to find they may be stuck in Roguatory till they lower their reputation, while if they knew about rep and the choice to move earlier before they had to ask about it, this whole process would have gone smoother and they would have been more pleased. That is how I think.

To be honest if you didnt leave out the key point to that paragraph.. it would make more sense.. I said it doesnt take many clicks to FIND OUT ABOUT YOUR GANG, because thats what a lot of the rank 11's cover. I wasnt talking about how to leave a gang.
You must not know about rank 11's or their jobs.. theyre jobs are to message the new players to the gang, introduce them to the funcinality of the gang, as well as help them with any questions or concerns they may have. THey also administer a test to rank up that shows they know how to navigate around the game/gang aspects
So to say they must figure out who the rank 11s are and message them is a little ignorant of you on the system of rank 11s.

 

 

RE: In the best case scenario perhaps rank 11s immediately send a message to new players, and within the welcome message is a direct link to the button to change gangs?

uh no, A rank 11 is not going to advertise how to leave their gang.. thats preposterous.. Now a guide, that is a person who could do that, without the feeling of betraying their gang..Also.. that is what rank 11s do.. they send the message to new players when they come to the gang.. Again please please please, understand ranks before you talk about them.

 

 

RE: I don't disagree in the least. The best way to understand something is to experience it. I am not talking about the best way for players to experience something, I am talking about the best way for new players to learn something in order to make an informed choice. These are related, but still are entirely different things. I personally feel a new player will have more patriotism and a more positive player experience, if the gang they enter first was one of their own choosing. They might also be excited to see how simple making a choice is.

 

 

Again.. they could read all they want about a gang and be like.. you know what.. I LOVE the fact DARKFLAME roleplays, and they serve cain etc etc.. but when they get there they see its not all role play, etc etc... How is that an informed decision? I'll keep it simple.. it's not.

 

 

RE: I am very confused by this statement/point/view. Can you help me understand what you are trying to express? In my mind, one must a.) know they have an option first in order to b.) research said options in order to c.) make an informed player-driven decision. That is assuming they are brand new to the game of course.

 

You brought up the amount of clicks being a negative thing if it takes to long to find, so you used it as a negative towards auto assigning.. well the SAME logic could be used for Rogue assignment.. They still have to click to find things do they not? Still the amount of clicks is relevent to you correct?.. so that makes the clicking aspect. NULL AND VOID. as they counteract each other.





 

Id figure id answer these as even though Ive been here quite a long time, Im not completely oblivious to how i felt back then

1. Have you ever been Rogue, if you have been did you have fun as Rogue? yes, and i didnt care either way, i used it to switch gangs
2. Are you still in the gang you started in? no, obviously not. I have spent over a year in each gang and settled in my "home".. based on experience not books
3. Did someone direct you to a gang library or forum thread so you might understand your gangs politics? yes, but i never read those things. I prefer to experience the gang then read about it
4. Did you need to ask for help on how to switch gangs if you did? i didnt need to ask, people say it on sc all the time back then haha
5. How many clicks does it take to find sufficient info on your gang? Dont quite know what clicks have to do with it, you would still need to click to find out about gangs if you were rogue...but no not many
6. How many clicks does it take to leave one gang, and join another of a players free choosing? 3 clicks to leave, 3ish to join another
7. Do you feel everyone that has ever joined this gang was as capable and patient as you were?  Im going to say no, because everyone is different.. and Im NOT a patient person.. LOL
8. Is Side Chat an inviting and helpful place for all players including rogues, newbies, and lowbies? Depending on the time of day, or who was online at the time
9. Might links to choices within the new player tutorial to their gang options be helpful? Probably not
10. Might it be easier to use the Wasteland if you don't have to worry about gaining territory first? no, I find the point of wasteland is to gain territory.. why on earth would i go in wasteland if not to gain territory...

 

 My answers are above, take them as you will, but you may say im too "old" to answer them but thats not the case.

 

I also dont understand the concept of "how many clicks to find out about your gang."

I didnt take many clicks because thats what rank 11's are for.. They lay out everything you need to knwo and snwer questions.
Like i said i didnt read any of the library books, whoops, but i felt it was easier to understand a gang by being a part of it.. not reading about what it :"should" be like, might just be me but meh.

But also, if you are rogue and you are to "research" the gangs.. how many clicks would that take.. Oh.. about just as much.. So that point is really voided as a positive as well as a negative.

 

Ive said this in the previous thread, As a guide for the game i had the opportunity to talk to the newbies and lower levels, and not one of them left, or had a problem with being in the gang from the start. Many have thrived in their home gang, others choose to leave eventually.. and many dont play because theyre not so into text based games.

Rogue Viability-

"Oh, I can enter a wasteland now? What are these colors?! So this is why those other people are telling me to join their gang! I would like to claim territory too!"

 

(Sticks around, joins gang, time passes)

 

"Wow that gang was really realistic in a way, I wonder what the other gangs are like! There are like a bunch of options and a really rich player-based experiance! Never played a game like this before!"

 

When you first sign up, you are put in a gang. At level 10, they would get to enter the wasteland... (dont need to be rogue to do that)

What are these colours... well .. anyone in a gang can also see those colours

Other people will always be telling them to join there gang.. regardless of affiliation

When in the gang they are put in at first... they can claim territory

in regards to the last part

When you are placed in your home gang ( I was bod) you will still wonder what other gangs are like, you will know first hand what they are like, you learn that all while in the gang. You shouldnt be a rogue to experience those things,....

 

Choice of words is key when trying to make a point for example:
 

Oh. im just going to leave this gang right here who seems to be helping me, just to do what I can do while in this gang... minus the help.. TOTALLY gonna do it !

not likely to happen

 

 

Rogues choose to be rogues. They have a forum, to interact though many do not stay rogue long... because they dont want to. If they want to wasteland... join a gang. SImple as that.