21 replies to this topic

[Savanc]

One of the things that has a negative effect on Eldevin is how overeffective AoE grinding/farming is.
AoE = Area of Effect; this means abilities that target an area (often with several creatures in it) contrary to abilities that target one creature at the time.

 

AoE grinding/farming is by far the fastest way to gain XP and to get gold (through loot drops).
The problem with it is that gaining levels becomes too easy which is detrimental to gameplay. And the rapid influx of gold is very damaging to the game's economy.
 
 
There are several reasons why AoE grinding/farming is so effective:

• AoE abilities are affecting all creatures in its radius by the same amount.
• Creatures give the same amount of XP and loot whether you kill them 1 by 1 or all at once through AoE.
• Almadine gems give health when using your weapon in an AoE attack (like Maelstrom).

Some possible adjustments to make AoE grinding less overpowered and effective would be to :

• Change AoE abilities so that they are more effective on small groups of creatures and less on bigger groups.
• Change XP and loot chance so it is (compared to the current situation) higher on low amount of kills per minute, and lower on high amounts of kills per minute.
• Change the Health per Hit on Almadines so that they give a lot of health if you hit 1 creature, and less per each extra creature.

 

 

 

1. Change AoE abilities so that they are more effective on small groups of creatures and less on bigger groups.
AoE abilities now typically deal an X amount of damage to all creatures in its radius.
This can be changed so that an AoE ability has a quite bit more effect if only 1 creature is in the radius; a bit more effect if there are two creatures in its radius; slightly more effect if there are three creatures in the radius; the same effect as now if there are 4 creatures in the radius; slightly less effect if there are 5 creatures in its radius; a bit less effect if there are 6 creatures in its radius; a moderate amount less effect if there are 7 creatures in its radius; etc.
 
For example, right now the talent Maelstrom deals 90% Melee DPS to ALL creatures in its radius.
That means if you can stay alive you can deal that amount of damage to a few dozen creatures. A few dozen creatures each time is actually not uncommon in AoE grinding/farming.
 
But an ability like this could be changed so that it then deals 105% Melee DPS if there is 1 creature in the radius; 100% Melee DPS to two creatures in its radius; 95% to 3 creatures in its radius; 4 creatures => 90% to all; 5 creatures => 85% to all; 6 creatures => 80% to all; 7 creatures => 75% to all; 8 creatures => 70% to all.
 
Of course the numbers aren't set in stone. But it will give you an idea of how it will work.
 
By changing the abilities like this the general idea behind AoE abilities will still be there: they are more effective against groups of creatures than that single target abilities are.
But you can't use them as overpoweredly effective against dozens of creatures at the same time any longer.
 
 
 
 
2. Change XP and loot chance so it is (compared to the current situation) higher on low amount of kills per minute, and lower on high amounts of kills per minute.
One of the reasons to go AoE farming is to have easy access to XP and gold.
People have been known to get to level 40 in mere days through AoE grinding. Also a lot of people use AoE farming to gain a lot of gold in a short time.
Both developments have had a negative effect on the game. It is not in the interest of the game if players can gain levels way too easily, and it is especially bad for the game if gold flows into the game too fast because it leads to rampant inflation.
 
Both these issues can easily be tackled by introducing a reduction on XP and loot chance based on a simple timer.
If someone kills many creatures in a certain amount of time then the XP and loot chance from these creatures is reduced.
 
An example of how this can work:
A player who kills creatures at a moderate pace would kill creatures once every 10 seconds or so.
Each time the player kills a creature it will check how many creatures the player has killed in the last minute.
Player 1 has killed at most 6 creatures in the last minute so the loot chance and XP are unaffected.
Player 2 has killed more than 6 creatures in the last minute so the loot chance and XP are slightly reduced for the 7th creature; a bit more reduced for the 8th creature; more reduced for the 9th creature; etc.
 
To put it in numbers (again they are not set in stone; they are to give you a general idea of how it works):

 

Player 1 kills creature 1 at 0 seconds (timer starts counting); creature 2 at 10 seconds; creature 3 at 20 seconds; creature 4 at 30 seconds; creature 5 at 40 seconds; creature 6 at 50 seconds; creature 7 at 60 seconds; creature 8 at 70 seconds; etc.
He will get the normal XP and loot chance because there is always 1 minute between the first and 7th kill. And between the 2nd and 8th kill; 3rd and 9th kill; etc.
 
Player 2 kills creature 1 at 0 seconds (timer starts counting); creature 2 at 1 seconds; creature 3 at 2 seconds; creature 4 at 3 seconds; creature 5 at 20 seconds; creature 6 at 21 seconds; creature 7 at 22 seconds; creature 8 at 23 seconds; creature 9 at 40 seconds; creature 10 at 41 seconds; creature 11 at 42 seconds; creature 12 at 43 seconds; creature 13 at 60 seconds; creature 14 at 61 seconds; creature 15 at 62 seconds; creature 16 at 63 seconds; creature 17 at 80 seconds; creature 18 at 81 seconds; creature 19 at 82 seconds; creature 20 at 83 seconds: etc.
He will get normal XP and loot chance for creature 1-6 because they are his first in that minute.
For creature 7 he will get 95% of the normal XP and loot chance.
For creature 8 he will get 90% of the normal XP and loot chance.
For creature 9 he will get 85% of the normal XP and loot chance.
For creature 10 he will get 80% of the normal XP and loot chance.
For creature 11 he will get 75% of the normal XP and loot chance.
For creature 12 he will get 70% of the normal XP and loot chance.
For creature 13 he will get 70% of the normal XP and loot chance (same as creature 12, because now creature 1 is already a minute ago).
For creature 14 he will get 60% of the normal XP and loot chance (same as creature 12 and 13, because now creature 1 and 2 are already a minute ago).
For creature 15 and any subsequent creature he will also get 70% of the normal XP and loot chance (because there are always 12 creature kills in the last minute).
 
This way AoE grinding/farming will prove to be a less effective way to gain XP, and will bring less gold into the game economy.
 
 
 
 
3. Change the Health per Hit on Almadines so that they give a lot of health if you hit 1 creature, and less per each extra creature.
One of the most important and overpowered ways of AoE grinding/farming is to use Almadine gems on your weapon and use AoE abilities that use that weapon.
The gems will give you health based on each time you hit a creature. And if you use an AoE ability of a large group the Almadine gems will give you so much health that you can survive several dozen creatures attacking you at the same time.
 
While the Health on Hit that Almadine give is in itself not overpowered when used against creatures 1 on 1, it is overpowered when used in AoE attacks.
A simple and effective way to reduce the overpowering effect it has with AoE abilities is to reduce the amount of health it gives if a player has done a lot of hits in a certain time frame. The initial health on hit may be raised a bit.
 
For example, if a player has a weapon with an Fair Almadine gem (tier 4 gem) in it then currently it will give 24 health on hit.
Let's raise that to 36 health per hit, but give it a reduction of 1/6 of the last amount per hit within a 3 second time frame.
When that player uses an AoE ability that uses the weapon then the first hit in 3 seconds will give 36 health; the second gives 30 health (36 with a 1/6th reduction = 30); the third one 25 (30 with a 1/6th reduction = 25), the fourth will give 21 (25 with a 1/6th reduction = 21); the fifth gives 17 (21 with a 1/6th reduction = 17), sixth gives 14 (17 with a 1/6th reduction = 14); seventh gives 12 (14 with a 1/6th reduction = 12); and the next hits give 10, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, etc. health per hit if they are all within those 3 second.
 
Suppose you hit once every second then your first hit gives you 36 health; the next hit at 1 second gives 30 health; the third hit at 2 seconds gives 25 health; the fourth hit at 3 seconds also gives 25 heatlh because the first hit is 3 seconds ago; and the following hits keep giving you 25 health until you break the pattern of 1 hit per second.
 
Suppose you hit twice every second then your first hit gives you 36 health; the next hit at 0.5 second gives 30 health; the next hit at 1 second gives 25 health, the fourth hit at 1.5 seconds gives 21 health; the fifth hit at 2 seconds also gives 17 health; at 2.5 seconds the sixth hit gives you 14 health; and at 3 seconds the seventh hit gives you 12 health because the first hit is 3 seconds ago; and the following hits keep giving you 12 health because those hits are always the 6th hit in the last 3 seconds until you break the pattern of 2 hits per second.
 
This change would keep the effect of Almadine for normal use, but reduces its overpowering effect it has on AoE grinding.

[Valiance]

They should implement the plan from lvl 38 to keep it fair  

[Ant]

If someone wants to spend their time grinding i don't really mind, there's nothing stopping me doing it aswel.  I like how my abilitys are atm, not too strong and not too weak.

[Mongo]

Go grind loot for 100 hours at level 40 Savanc, then come back and tell me how easy it all is. 

[Bryn]

I have not leveled a Warrior since beta, but it was much easier to level with AoE grinding, and that was before HoH gems.  Do AoEs need to be nerfed?  Maybe a little, but need to be careful not to put Warriors (more than Mages) out of business with mana issues.   I do think it would benefit Instances, where gathering and quickly dispatching everything before the boss has become the norm.

[hussey]

For mages AOE leveling takes lot of time till lvl 35 where u have to use twice or thrice to use blizzard ,and it needs to done perfectly or u would lose hp and possibly die due to low armor but the truth is warriors (mainly) have metorite with 3 sec stun and then just maelstorm with HoH gem .

 

CD on warrior AOE is still lesser than storm or dragon's breath .

 

Dragon's breath is a good one for mages after 35 but its cd makes it not so effective as warrior's .

 

But aoe levelling is sure kinda boring , u need to push to go one more killing the same guy

 

Reducing the xp for AOE kills i feel is not a good idea as non supporters without xp booster get lil xp by questing , so they depend on AOE lvling . Just reduce the life steal per critter would help . 

 

Still warriors could AOE kill by adding spired at the end of it .It would be good if healers have atleast one aoe ( Radiance used to do some AOE dmg )

[Savanc]

Go grind loot for 100 hours at level 40 Savanc, then come back and tell me how easy it all is. 

 

I fail to see why I can't have an opinion about it if I am not level 40, but have watched many level 40 players when they AoE grind, and been part of a lot of level 30 AoE farming parties during beta. I know what I am talking about.

 

Furthermore, what was that amount of gold you gained so far? You mentioned it in chat a day or two ago. Something like 24k gold come to mind. How is it that 1 player gaining so much gold is not damaging the game's economy?

 

 

 

I have not leveled a Warrior since beta, but it was much easier to level with AoE grinding, and that was before HoH gems.  Do AoEs need to be nerfed?  Maybe a little, but need to be careful not to put Warriors (more than Mages) out of business with mana issues.   I do think it would benefit Instances, where gathering and quickly dispatching everything before the boss has become the norm.

 

That can always be tackled by reducing the mana usage of warrior (and templar and assassin?) abilities if needed.

But remember that the only think that hurts warriors more than it hurts mages in my proposal is the Almadine part. Both are equally affected by the first two proposals.

[ZooksterGaming]

You only saw me for about 5-10 minutes, and I died 3 times during that time
You also need to use the right build to do it. Just anything doesnt work

And If there wont be any farming classes the economy will be hurt the other way (and I dont think it's hurt the way it is now).

We can't take on infinite mobs either. Just as many so we dont die before we hit Meteorite (Warrior) Depending on the mobs. (Probably applies to mages as well, depending on their rotations, which I'm not that familiar with)

 

Also, to be able to make 200g/h+ you need to have most of the best gear in the game. (Almandine Gems not needed, can just spam pots). But you do need Onyx gems for a warrior or you get wrecked.

You need to be a supporter, and use loot pot as well, and probably use reapir kits instead of paying gold for repair.
Without any of those I think we're looking at around 100g/h. (Unless youre lucky and gets a glimmering gem)

If you want to use almandine gems, you need at least Tier 4 Fair Gems (48 life steal for warrior/24 life steal for mages and Rangers). But at level 40 you most likely need Tier 5 Glimmering Gems or Doube Life Steal roll on hammer from TR.

 

It takes a lot of effort and time to get all the needed gear and weapon to make it worth it, even more if you use Loot Pot. So should we spend 60 TR runs to get all the gear +  that one weapon needed and money on flakes and paying others to craft, or spend all the profession time as well to craft it free, to end up at eoc with nothing worth doing?

Also, what would happen when more players wants to farm the same place as someone else. Less gold/h. Maybe hop server, oh no theres a guy there too. Lets try the last server, thats a nono cos you lag to much on that server. You also need to be farming at the right places, with the right mobs, with the right amount of them, and the right spawnrates. Everything counts to it.

 

Following text is just examples of rotations

Warrior:

A warrior can pretty much only AoE grind on melee mobs and has to stand in their attackrange to do it.

Healing - (Redemption for Damage Reduction If needed), Almandine Gems in 2H Weapon, Pots

Combo - Aggro mobs -> Group them up -> Lethal Concotion -> Meteorite (stun) -> Maelstrom -> Ruin/Bloodbath to finish off mobs if needed (From level 22)

 

Mage:

A mage can probably farm any type of mob, but ofc melee mobs are the easiest. (A mage spells outrange mobs ranged attacks) And doesn't have to stand in any kind of attackrange to farm.

Healing - Revitelize, Rejuvenate, Cauterize, (Redemption for Damage Reduction If needed) Almandine Gem in Essence, Pots

Combo(s) - Aggro mobs -> Group them up -> Frosbite -> Blizzard (At lower levels)

Aggro mobs -> Group them up -> Miasma (stun)-> (Engulf?) -> Frostbite (snare) -> Erupt -> Dragonbreath (At level 40)

 

Ranger:
Can a level 40 ranger do the same thing with its 6s snares etc? I'm not sure, maybe it can, just not as fast.

Edited by Zook, 23 February 2014 - 14:54.

[Savanc]

Sorry; double post

Edited by Savanc, 23 February 2014 - 14:53.

[Mongo]

Furthermore, what was that amount of gold you gained so far? You mentioned it in chat a day or two ago. Something like 24k gold come to mind. How is it that 1 player gaining so much gold is not damaging the game's economy?

You do realise that traded Gold was also added to gold collected until they fixed it after I reported it as an exploit right? so every gem etc sold was part of my total until recently.

 

To be honest I am gonna stay out of this thread, as you have clearly shown recently in world chat that you have some kind of weird jealousy thing going on towards me, many people have whispered me and said how obvious it is that you are angry at my success.

 

I find it rather sad that a grown man can act like that, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

[Savanc]

You only saw me for about 5-10 minutes, and I died 3 times during that time
You also need to use the right build to do it. Just anything doesnt work
And If there wont be any farming classes the economy will be hurt the other way (and I dont think it's hurt the way it is now).

 
I have seen more players do AoE grinding, Zook.
Why else would I know about how it works and invited L3fty on a field trip?
 
And it will take a complete turn around of the game's economy to actually get deflation. After all, doing professions brings gold into the game.
Someone gathers materials like ore and coal, he buys flux, turns it into bars and then armor/weapons and sells them to a vendor. That earns him money.
If someone buys materials from someone else he might think that professions cost gold. But it doesn't take gold away from the game; merely replaces it between players.
The only 2 ways that gold is now leaving the game at a slightly noticeable rate are through gear repair costs and to a probably lesser amount people buying coal, wood sap, wool, animal skins or crystal powder from an NPC.
I am sure that if Mongo can gain 24k then a lot more players have gained 10-15k. And that more than covers the repair costs for all players that have occurred so far.
 
 
 

We can't take on infinite mobs either. Just as many so we dont die before we hit Meteorite (Warrior) Depending on the mobs. (Probably applies to mages as well, depending on their rotations, which I'm not that familiar with)

 
Sure, most players can't take on more than 15-20 creatures at once. But to be honest, that seems to be a bit high even thinking about it.
The benefit that warriors have compared to mages is that Almadine gems will help the warriors survive much more easily than mages. I haven't seen mages take on as many creatures as warriors have.
 
 
 

Also, to be able to make 200g/h+ you need to have most of the best gear in the game. (Almandine Gems not needed, can just spam pots). But you do need Onyx gems for a warrior or you get wrecked.
You need to be a supporter, and use loot pot as well, and probably use reapir kits instead of paying gold for repair.
Without any of those I think we're looking at around 100g/h. (Unless youre lucky and gets a glimmering gem)
If you want to use almandine gems, you need at least Tier 4 Fair Gems (48 life steal for warrior/24 life steal for mages and Rangers). But at level 40 you most likely need Tier 5 Glimmering Gems or Doube Life Steal roll on hammer from TR.
 
It takes a lot of effort and time to get all the needed gear and weapon to make it worth it, even more if you use Loot Pot. So should we spend 60 TR runs to get all the gear +  that one weapon needed and money on flakes and paying others to craft, or spend all the profession time as well to craft it free, to end up at eoc with nothing worth doing?

So you are saying players start with gaining 100g per hour and when they can afford gems and items they will slowly increase to 200g per hour?
Just to be clear, but nothing else in the game does even remotely come close to those amounts of gold per hour.
 
A level 20 player is happy when he has finally gotten more than 50 gold in the entire game.
A level 30 player will probably have made 200-400 gold by then. Something an AoE grinder gets in 2 hours.
 
A normal player could have gotten more if he has been spending hours and hours mining/skinning/farming materials to sell to crafting players. Then they might have made 5-20 gold per hour (5 if you have tier 1 mats; 20 if you have tier 3 mats). And I am sure mining/skinning/farming for hours is at least as boring as AoE grinding.

[Savanc]

To be honest I am gonna stay out of this thread, as you have clearly shown recently in world chat that you have some kind of weird jealousy thing going on towards me, many people have whispered me and said how obvious it is that you are angry at my success.

 

I am a bit stunned by this. I really don't know where this comes from. I can assure you I am not jealous of your success.

If I said something in world chat that has given you that impression then I am sorry for saying it as it was not intended that way.

[Neon]

Rather than go on and on with useless points I think I'll sum my opinion up briefly on this.

 

AOE grinding, almadines gems.. none of that needs to be looked at or nerfed.

 

The bigger issue here is the value of gold taking into account EP. It's quite obvious HCS never intended for so much gold to be bought into the game (1k gold f2p cap, 1k gold level 50 abilities). 

 

Another guy posted a thread on this and he got put down hard for his idea, but the only way for gold to receive value in this game is with the removal of tradeable EP and items such as the repair kits (so there is a proper gold sink).

 

As for professions and people not being able to make as much money that's mainly due to the fact there is no auction house, which is very much needed with the crafting/item system Eldevin has.

 

It also doesn't help that there is a vendor selling priority resources (coal, animal skins etc) for only 5g/100. With the removal of that shop those resources could easily be selling for over 10g/100.

 

We need things to scale in-game, not nerf them.

 

@ Savanc, what I posted here wasn't a direct response to your post rather than my ideas briefly summed up towards grinding, gold and the survival of the economy.

 

I play assassin, the least effective class in any aoe situation (templar has it's aoe stun, aoe holds, dmg reduction and aoe threat abilities making it more effective). There's no way for me to make the kind of gold a warrior or mage can, but that's what their classes are best at. Granted mage is still the "best" overall class, but we need tweaks to keep things balanced. Nerfs are only needed when one class beats all others and effects their gameplay to the point where it would only be beneficial to play that class.

 

Also you may notice that we have lot's of character slots, a level 40 is fairly easy to acquire (a week of hard grinding or 2 weeks of slower grinding). It's better to take advantage of those character slots, make a mage or warrior if you want to grind for gold (grinding for gold will and should always be the most stable gold income in the game).

Edited by Neon, 23 February 2014 - 15:42.

[Sage]

I am a ranger and AOE grinding is  NOT so easy at all.  If fact, I wasn't able to AOE grind at all until I reached Level 40 and obtained my Storm spell.  I take a lot of damage  and have a +42 steal life bonus on my crossbow.  Honestly I stopped reading all the technical stuff you wrote because it really doesn't apply in all situations nor does it apply in my experience with AOE.  What you call grinding I call having fun irregardless of whether I win the rare drop or not... and trust me drops are not so freely given so every one I get I earned.  (just my thoughts on the topic)  

[ZooksterGaming]

@savanc (im too lazy to quote so i just answer )

 

A Mage doesnt have to stand in melee range and take the extra damage as a warrior does, a mage then takes less damage, and have less repair cost. (Fully Talented Miasma = 2s stun, use frosbite and get out. No damage taken.) Also taking less damage = less repaircost. And warriors have to take a few hits for each pull, meaning they have higher repaircost.
Also a full repair with max gear is something near 100g. Using a reapir kit for that saves you 75g atm (25 EP for repair kit = 25g atm)

 

No im saying someone that isnt a supporter and doesnt use a loot potion will earn about 100g/h.
But a player that is a supporter and use loot potion and use repair kits earn more than 200g/h. (Pretty much using whatever he can to get more gold, NOTE that a Loot potion is 80EP (or 80g).

 

 

 

About 24k total earned gold. Thats for all the time he played, quests, leveling up, alts etc. And at a time there was a bug with trading counting all that gold as collected. So that sure adds a few k's as well. And exactly how many hours have he been grinding/farming? And how much of that time has been 200g/h. Surely not since he started AoE farming.

[hussey]

Much more easier way to earn gold ATM is to do world bosses . Though it depends on luck , a proper team kills defiler in under 15 mins and healers are integral part of WBes . A glim gem sells for 100 + g .Not mentioning quest rewards . 

 

So there are better ways to earn money ATM than AOE grinding

[Mongo]

Much more easier way to earn gold ATM is to do world bosses . Though it depends on luck , a proper team kills defiler in under 15 mins and healers are integral part of WBes . A glim gem sells for 100 + g .Not mentioning quest rewards . 

 

So there are better ways to earn money ATM than AOE grinding

I still make more solo.

[Mongo]

I am a bit stunned by this. I really don't know where this comes from. I can assure you I am not jealous of your success.

If I said something in world chat that has given you that impression then I am sorry for saying it as it was not intended that way.

Ok lets put that down as a misunderstanding.

 

I just get annoyed when people assume I can pull gold out of my butt! It takes lots of hours and concentration to build up Gold stocks from grinding. Not all warriors can do it, many level 40 Warrios have said to me they often make hardly anything from grinding loot ans ask me for tips etc.

 

I also invest alot of EP in loot potions and repair kits and soon a time will come when it will no longer be worth the effort, once the G:EP rate changes and I will probably have to find something else to do with my time.

[xpwaste]

lol. just lol

[Susej]

Ok i am a somewhat new player and i already add in hand +900 gold total, never grinded for gold and never tried, atm i only have in hand little more them 300, 500 of the gold was converted into Ep when the prices where still very good,

About all this post i can say i totally agree with Neon and repair kits should just disappear and it would actually create  a gold sink for the game.

Edited by Susej, 23 February 2014 - 19:33.