58 replies to this topic

[Irradiated]

As a primarily PvE player who plans to do some battlegrounds eventually ...

 

I much prefer the idea of resistances or talents with different behaviors.  A general nerf of talents (Cauterize, Envenom) and you risk unbalancing PvE.

 

This is a problem that goes back as far as MMOs.  How to balance PvE and PvP?  The PvE balance is getting pretty good.  I think it's a safe assumption that HCS will not be adding a second talent tree anytime soon.  So balancing requires that PvE and PvP function differently. 

[Neon]

I much prefer the idea of resistances or talents with different behaviors.  A general nerf of talents (Cauterize, Envenom) and you risk unbalancing PvE.

 

This is a problem that goes back as far as MMOs.  How to balance PvE and PvP?  The PvE balance is getting pretty good.  I think it's a safe assumption that HCS will not be adding a second talent tree anytime soon.  So balancing requires that PvE and PvP function differently. 

The nerf suggested for cauterize was justified by having the best possible option as making it a pve ability.

As for Envenom it is an extremely powerful bleed, the nerf which I suggested would not making it unbalanced, it would still be worth using and taking the talents.

Edited by Neon, 06 January 2014 - 17:19.

[sareth]

considering cauterize having 400% spell healing i dont think its much OP im level 32 pure glass mage build all points in (342) sorcery so i can barely heal 60% of my HP and still not happy with my damage. My critical  (44%) does only 1401 damage

[Malthrus]

Edited my post to include my thoughts on the balance of mages.

[Neon]

considering cauterize having 400% spell healing i dont think its much OP im level 32 pure glass mage build all points in (342) sorcery so i can barely heal 60% of my HP and still not happy with my damage. My critical  (44%) does only 1401 damage

Remember we are talking pvp situations where things are buffed and the data was primarily based of level 40 fully geared mage.

 

Huge difference.

Edited by Neon, 06 January 2014 - 20:44.

[HuMoR]

Remember we are talking pvp situations where things are buffed and the data was primarily based of level 40 fully geared mage.

 

Huge difference.

Below I will post my thoughts on the mage class abilities, there are some other issues with the game in general that I will highlight that makes my character build (and several others) overpowered, but for now I will focus on the mage skills abilities and skill tree exclusively.

^means game as a whole not just PVP

although i will agree,Ignite needs to be nerfed. I can use it like every 3 seconds for high hits inbetween my incin and basic ranged attacks.

Edited by HuMoR, 06 January 2014 - 20:57.

[Oops]

here is my opinion on this whole thing why not give us a seperate set up for PVP then for PVE so that those of us who don't PVP don't have to suffer due to those who do and want changes made it isn't fair if I have to be nerfed due to my class I chose to play being able to heal myself better then others that are not prophets if my character gets nerfed due to pvpers wanting it nerfed I will then do some serious thinking about wether or not I want to continue to support this game I am a supporter and I do buy eps besides my supporter pack I don't want my character nerfed anymore than it has been so please give the PVPERS a seperate talent tree and complete set up so you don't do in those who don't pvp 

Edited by jeffslady, 06 January 2014 - 21:48.

[Malthrus]

Way too much work and a waste of development time, it's not like these abilities are not overpowered in PvE also. I balance out the ignite nerf with a bloodboil buff. Damage for mage would actually be higher with my changes and aside from a well built assassin build mage is the highest single target dps and the highest aoe dps if you know how to rotate your skills properly.

 

Mage is also a 10 yd ranged dps class which avoids nearly all attacks from bosses whereas assassin has the threat of the boss 1 shotting them in melee. But rather than nerf mage single target dps I would prefer to see buffs to other classes, such as warrior single target which seems to include maelstrom from what I have seen... *cough sear buff*

Edited by Malthrus, 06 January 2014 - 21:41.

[Oops]

I am not a mage and I do not pvp period and like I said if my character gets nerfed again I will probably just quit and take my money else where so why don't you pvpers just learn to deal with what ya don't like and quit trying to turn this game to where it is all about you pvpers

[Neon]

I am not a mage and I do not pvp period and like I said if my character gets nerfed again I will probably just quit and take my money else where so why don't you pvpers just learn to deal with what ya don't like and quit trying to turn this game to where it is all about you pvpers

Hey, these changes that we're suggesting would hardly change the pve gameplay atall. Look at assassin for example. Frozen spires (their main aoe grinding ability) got nerfed to the point where there is no point of using it or spending talent points on it, we complained for a day or two and learnt to deal with it, because the game is still playable. That is an example of an extreme nerf, these aren't extreme, they are tweaks.

 

The small suggestions we've posted so far would, as I said make little difference to pve gameplay. It's for the better. If you play this game or any mmo for that matter thinking there will never be any nerfs or class balance then I must say that you need to change your train of thought. As far as I know HCS haven't even seen this thread yet, we don't work for them so these are suggestions (although they have been well developed/planned).

Edited by Neon, 06 January 2014 - 21:58.

[HuMoR]

that nerf was necessary though neon. assassins aren't meant for high AOE damages. class description says actually quite the opposite. i'd say assassins are balanced now more then ever. although spires could use a extra 5% dps overall maybe PVP could be considered very balanced right now if playing a appropriate build,based off what I see really,the suggestions made are based solely off individual speculation of ones own build not taking into consideration those of builds not quite fully tested. I'd say if any changes are to be made,there should be individual say from all types of builds coming to a full conclusion. It isnt only to make the pvp fan base happy,but to make pve more happy as well and pvp more inviting towards those pve'ers (i know that's somewhat of a goal of this thread). Try a different build to evade some things,what you lose in that dps you may make up in life expectancy. (and yes i'm aware the current input put out there for balancing is from the mages and assassins on this thread ). Not even trying to cause a argument or conflict, just saying more things need to actually be tested before coming to conclusions on what might be best or balanced.

Edited by HuMoR, 06 January 2014 - 22:08.

[Neon]

that nerf was necessary though neon. assassins aren't meant for high AOE damages. class description says actually quite the opposite. i'd say assassins are balanced now more then ever. although spires could use a extra 5% dps overall maybe PVP could be considered very balanced right now if playing a appropriate build,based off what I see really,the suggestions made are based solely off individual speculation of ones own build not taking into consideration those of builds not quite fully tested. I'd say if any changes are to be made,there should be individual say from all types of builds coming to a full conclusion. It isnt only to make the pvp fan base happy,but to make pve more happy as well and pvp more inviting towards those pve'ers (i know that's somewhat of a goal of this thread). Try a different build to evade some things,what you lose in that dps you may make up in life expectancy. (and yes i'm aware the current input put out there for balancing is from the mages and assassins on this thread ). Not even trying to cause a argument or conflict, just saying more things need to actually be tested before coming to conclusions on what might be best or balanced.

I know it was necessary (the reason why I was annoyed when the nerf happened was due to no pre-warning and the fact assassin has less dps compared to ranger and mage when it should out damage them) I was simply giving an example of a nerf, and an extreme nerf.

 

Not to be rude, but have you pvped since launch? There are some obvious changes that need to be made and there are abilities/talents that stand out as overpowered very distinctly.

 

Warriors and Templar may need some balancing as no one has stepped up to test them to their full potential in pvp, other than that it doesn't reflect much on the other classes and the abilities/talents that have been highlighted are the serious problems and overpowered abilities, which need to be tweaked.

Edited by Neon, 06 January 2014 - 22:13.

[HuMoR]

I have actually pvp'ed quite a bit. but ignite hasn't ever 1 hit me due to i like to redemption and blind commonly. And I do agree Ignite needs to be nerfed. not in damage but simply in cool down time I guess. Mages are meant for high amounts of damages. but not High and fast amounts of damages. (even though the mage tree would lead to think otherwise of the actual class description) mages haste needs to be nerfed. But this is also just my opinion from the PVP/PVE I have done. I can only give my opinion on the class I myself have tested with multiple builds in it. Everyone in the game can buy blind and redemption that alone is the 30% debuff you asked for. You said Earlier higher levels will get advantages that is true,this same scenario applies they want to be a higher level for pvp'ing they can buy the skills along the way that will help them further their attempts/success into pvp. Blind/Redemption/temp buffs (in time when templars are at 40 and pvping commonly).

Edited by HuMoR, 06 January 2014 - 22:24.

[Oops]

well I am a prophet I don't see a need for mine to be nerfed my dps is not as great as that of a rangers and no I am not saying they need nerfing I am simply saying that from my point of view my dps is less as a prophet then it was when I played a ranger  I am just saying that I will probably spend my money on other games not made by HCS if my character takes a nerfing just to satisfy the pvpers as I don't nor do I intend to pvp 

[Malthrus]

Increasing ignite cooldown would make the class less fun to play and reduce mage mobility. My change is better because it tackles the root of the problem, when it crits it literally does half of someones hitpoints without miasma and starlight buff stacked.

 

In general all cooldowns will be nerfed with haste nerf, I am thinking ahead in that regard. If you were to nerf the cooldown of an ability and then nerf haste on top of that... yeah you get the idea. I think short cooldowns should be promoted more than discouraged otherwise the game turns in to a 1 button fireball spam fest, but as it is now the cooldowns are a little too short (due to haste).

 

In response to Jeff:

 

This doesn't just concern pvp, the things mentioned are also overpowered in pve. Just look in the skill tree and skill book at the number of useless skills nobody uses, mostly the damage over time ones. The thread might be directed towards pvp but it's not like we don't play pve and understand it to a high level, we have done every boss in the game bar 2 world bosses which enrage timer was too steep for a 5 man party at the time. There is barely any pvp if you haven't noticed.

 

The game is already way too easy and I don't see a problem with widespread class nerfs and underused skills buffed to make the game more interesting and perhaps enable unconventional builds.

Edited by Malthrus, 06 January 2014 - 22:38.

[Oops]

as a prophet who doesn't pvp I don't want to see my haste nerfed anymore than it has been maybe the mage spells need a longer cool down I don't know never played a mage so I don't know the build maybe you guys should learn the ins and outs of the other builds by playing other classes then maybe you can figure out how to beat them in PVP without anyone needing to be nerfed so that you can beat them 

[HuMoR]

Mages=Very high dps on hit/slow attack
assassin=med-med high fast attacks,med-medi high damage over time.(single)
Warriors=The Actual AOE based class.<-(my opinion needs something added to make them a actual AOE choice,as us mages can out AOE warriors when it comes to damage and fast kills with a good rotation)

We are meant to hit high numbers just not as fast as attacking with other classes.
Mage class would do good not depending solely on Ignite like it does now tbh,a nerf to its cd and a nerf to a mages haste wont really make that huge of a impact.

[Oops]

here is a good idea how about they make it to where the class buffs are unavailable in pvp and none of your talents work and ya don't even get the benefit of your attribute points it is just simply who clicks faster kills the slower clicker then no one can whine that this class needs to be nerfed and the pve'rs like myself are unaffected by what the pvpers want 

[Malthrus]

Well between us we have played every class and we understand what is good and what is bad, we are not biased in that regard. I focus on mage because that's what I play, but based on the people I have played with and their experiences and thoughts the suggested changes are in the right direction to improve the game.

 

Prophet is probably the strongest class in the game right now at lvl 40 so I wouldn't be complaining about any nerfs to be honest (unlimited mana, 2 instant full health heals for almost no mana, groupwide 30% dmg reduction shield, 25% dmg reduction shield with insane HoT, insane mana regen for the entire party and CAN actually do good damage with the 30% healing converted to spell power buff). Prophet can get higher tooltip DPS than a mage with all of those healing talents and shields ontop.

 

I understand they are annoying to level since they don't have any good damage talents until the final row, when they get a rediculous spell power buff. But I would not encourage grinding/questing as a prophet/templar, you should level as mage or warrior instead and respec at lvl 40.

[Oops]

well I like playing my prophet and lvling as a prophet it helped me to learn how to heal in beta and like I said learn every possible setup the other classes could use then maybe you could beat them instead of whining they need to be nerfed I don't pvp so why should I be nerfed to satisfy those who pvp and don't like that someone can beat them maybe they should take away all skills in pvp and all the talents and just make ya all hit eachother with your fist or throw rocks at each other that way no one gets nerfed and you guys stand a fair chance against those who just in my opinion seem to be better at playing their class then some people if everyone is on same playing field then there is no need to whine so yea I like the thought of you guys throwing sticks and stones at eachother if ya don't want to get up close to someone and hit them with your fist

Edited by jeffslady, 06 January 2014 - 23:02.