50 replies to this topic

[Susej]

This is normal.  Each build has it's own pros and cons.  You can't expect every single build out there to be the best build.  And if your build relies on haste, then fine.  But 75% haste is still stupid, because majority of prophets only cast 2 abilities, and I hate thinking that a class is reduced to 2 casts only.  Way to make a class completely boring/easy.

BRO i use 18 abilities i dont use 2, 

HASTE IS A NECCESSITY, i like to have all my skills ready at any time(lol), with such measly ways to improve our healing power(sapphires) we need haste i feel that in my calcs to be usefull a glim sapphire could not be less them +1000 healing power, still to make them better they could be like ruby, and add a percentage to your healing power this way lower level healers would not be unbalanced a glim sapphire that would give 5%-9% more healing power would be legit aand maybe usefull.

 

now fabled sets was supposed to be a major update but the bonus is really unappealing and why vit again? gives us more 25 melee, sorcery and ranged along with the  vit  and we might be happier still for prophet 500 healing power is laughing at our faces.

[Torakx]

Hi,
This is my first post on these forums.
I'm also only playing about 2 days and only lvl 10.
I do have a ton of experience in mmorpgs and also a budding game developer too.

Nearly all the mmorpgs I played (I am all about the pvp) has experienced issues with OP healing/tank classes in pvp.
Here are some of the solutions I came across.
PVP effects added to normal skills. When used on players, has extra effects over use on mobs.
An assassin might have a few extra stuns atached for example and in these battles against an OP tank using heals etc, a few well placed stuns would assist the team in taking them down. Of course the stuns would need to lock skill use for a time too.

Or a priest might have a skill that prevents others fromgettign heals for a time.

The problem with mmorpgs and pvp I thnk, is that you will never find a true balance.
If you did, maybe it would just be boring.... My enjoyment in PVP is being able to take out of of these easy classes, with a more difficult, but fun playstyle.
The closest I have seen, is the above fix, where skills have added or different effects in PVP.
Even then, the result can be a rotation of classes being OP, and I believe this also helps with keeping the game "fresh".
A new update comes out to give love to the underplayed classes and the population of that class goes up.
This is a way to maintain even populations as you try to balance out classes.

Generally speaking, in mmorpgs and with PVP in mind,
Healer =  team heals,AOE DOTs, Debuffs.
Tank = high def(usually with layers defence or shields), slow high dmg, knockback, aoe stun/CC.
Mage = AOE dmg, Aoe CC, Sleep/Mezz single(slows casting in PVP).
Ranger = Single range dmg, snares Aoe and single, Speed buffs?
Assassins = Single melee dmg, stuns and snares, stealth and speed buff.

In my view, each class without heals should have at least 1 stun. Because if you are fighting a healing class like a priest, they usually survive by either having enough mana to heal constantly or having enough hp to survive spike dmg.
The answer to the problem of the healing tanks, is to dmg them down enough for your spike dmg(alpha as it's been called from my experience) to finish the job and so each class having this problem needs a stun skill in order to time this alpha with the big healers.

In the scenario stated in the original post about 5 people trying to kill one player, I must presume its a kniht or more likely a priest spamming heals and pots.
In that scenario I would hae thought an assasin with stuns and dmg aided by a snare or two should do the job in quick time.
I haven't taken the time to go through all the skills yet, so forgive me if some of this stuff is already in place.

By the way devs, the game is good
I found it a little difficult to get to level 10, as in slow.
The balance on pots and healing between fights is acceptable considering it's F2P atm.
I think mainly I found it difficult, in that, I am forced to quest to level in any good time and this is extremely boring for a pvper like myself.
So I have been grinding solo between access to new dungeons and main quests.
With user satisfaction in mind, it could be a bit faster a leveling experience up to 1/4 of the way to cap and then tail off more sharply(if it doesn't already).
That balance is one of the most important things to get right.
Too difficult at the start and the user base drops or stays low.
Too difficult at the end can cause other long term issues(but not so serious as the lower level user base)Possibly losing paying customers, that 10-20% of the user base for most F2P MMORPGs.
At each place there is a noticeable slow down in reaching the next levels, the game must broaden out.
Which can help with balancing PVP skills.
The pvp ranges can be set to the levels that need broadening. So while more people reach these level ranges and slow down to grind levels, they will also be in the right range for pvp.
An example.
One pvp range could be lvl 30-39. If the leveling is not so slow going from 1-30, but tails sharply here to slow down leveling. There will be a sort of bottleneck of lvls 30-39 gathering after a while. This is broadening the pplayerbase and a good place tobroaden the game itself. This could be the home of the F2P users. Who enjoy the game enough to populate the servers, but on average not enough to move out of the 30-39 range.
For this reason I like the idea of locking XP gain.
It will allow you to have F2P users who will stick around longer and create communities.
Or whats known as twinks in MMORPGs. PVP characters specced out in the highest gear to stay at a certain level range.
PVP skills should be considered then to compliment this phase between 30-39. With level 40 giving a powerfull new skill and setting the grinders reaching 40 into the new pvp category 40-49. The idea being all classes at the lower level of their PVP range gain their stronger skills early in that range, giving them the best chance against higher levels in their PVP range.

Just my opinion in the end.
Maybe it will spark some ideas.


 

 

Edited by Torakx, 09 June 2014 - 19:45.

[HuMoR]

There was nothing wrong with TOC to begin with. HC catering to the 1% of the 1% that didn't do their math properly and consider any gem drops outside of dungeons and AOE grinding to be a threat to their own little personal monopoly.

 

Here are some facts:

Gems didn't drop every round. Maybe 1 in 5 if you were lucky, which usually dropped 2-3 gems to split among 5 players.

It took a team of 4-5 max levels, which could easily form a BT team instead at this point that would drop around 5 glims and 1 defined in 30min.

The only advantage of doing TOC over TR was that you didn't need a tank. Therefore you didn't need to stand around town spamming chat all day, like the current state of the game requires. You could also acquire prestige points at a low rate (compared to losing out on remnants and relics).

As stated by others, the BT drop rate for gems blows away the TR drop rate. There would be no comparison to the original TOC drop rate at this point. Did the market "crash" from defined gems flooding the market? Nope. That's because it's all paranoia.

 

I see nothing exploitable about any of what TOC use to be.

 

Nerfing should never cripple anything out of it's purpose. < common sense, right?

 

Even though all of these issues have been posted for several months now, nothing has changed. If HC does decide to listen to one of those responsible for supporting the TOC nerf, that now has deceded that it should be undone, I would be surprised. Maybe if you get the other 2 players that labled the TOC drop rate as an exploit (out of what use to be a 400 player base) to change their mind as well, you can convince HC to waste more of their time undoing what should have never been done to begin with.

 

When it comes to fabled weapons, there is absolutely no point in a prophet acquiring them. I am surprised that any prophet wastes their time helping others get weapons, when the game robs them of their hard work. A boycott should have been in order to correct the issue.

the drop rate was flooding the market its fact and majority of the player base knew it,you took it as a direct attack due to the fact it was nerfed. It was being exploited and glims were flying out the economy itself even showed it with the crashing of gem prices,can't say paranoia when the facts show it happened. If they weren't flying out too fast hcs would have left it alone guaranteed...and No i'm not saying to undo it i'm saying make the rewards better but don't make them bleed gems out like crazy like it use to do. 

[HuMoR]

In the scenario stated in the original post about 5 people trying to kill one player, I must presume its a kniht or more likely a priest spamming heals and pots.
In that scenario I would hae thought an assasin with stuns and dmg aided by a snare or two should do the job in quick time.
I haven't taken the time to go through all the skills yet, so forgive me if some of this stuff is already in place.

problem with this is,they can block,high heal and evade at the same time rapidly,so no matter what class you are and how you time it they can out heal it,once you get stunned or snare you have a temp immunity to it again,within that time they already are able to recast those abilities. 2 sins+a mage and a ranger werent even taking the life under 90% even with stuns and snare/silences. so...basically this might be a bit OP as it wouldn't even seem possible for 1v1 to beat it or even 2v1 to beat it at all as the dps will never accumulate to the heals coming in from it. Also when it was a 5v1 scenario possibility it was just enough dps to get the job done now as 4v1 it takes to long going nowhere the other teammates of this said class will wipe you in the process. so its best to just avoid fighting the class and detour towards fighting its teammates. I wouldnt be asking for a nerf to anything,if anything id be asking for a buff to dmg. maybe reduce the 30% damage reduction in pvp to maybe 20-25% most likely 20%

[Torakx]

Ah well..... if no version of assassin builds is able to take on or ambush kill this pvp priest build, then the PVP game is indeed broken.
Would penalizing the healers mana make much difference to them? Or can pots and regen make up for debuffs on that side of things?
It might be that the population of preists on the server is too low and this is a technique used toencourage more priests to be rolled.
I personally don't mind support classes made easier for PVP if it means I get to team with more healers.
But there is limits and balances needed.
I am sure the devs see all these issues.
So, hopefuly the community can offer enough ideas to increase the chances of a balanced game.

 

[ultramus]

Mages- what once use to be a great class is now a dead class,has been shadowed for a while but this class is in all honesty dead,the least populated class in the entire game and for a good reason,it stinks now not good at single target dps and not even comparable to other AOe classes,and even has dungeons that decrease its damage making them even more so less effective then other classes. (decent at pvp but as pvp isn't a truly populated area you can see where the problem exists not being good enough for pve and pvp not being fun for it to be used.). slight buffs to its dps or even a decrease to its cd's could be a easy fix just try to balance it out so people actually play it again.
 

 

Yes Mage does in fact suck now (speaking as a Mage). I've even had tanks mention that they'd rather not run dungeons with mages because it adds a noticeable amount of time to runs.  However, I actually think the class is well balanced...it's just that some other classes/hybrids are so OP that mages can't compare as you state correctly. 

[Lucid]

I, and at least a couple of other prophets I've talked to, believe that haste is overrated.  The fabled set still adds a lot of stats over using rare BT staff/essence, and pure dps prophet, pure crit prophet, even hybrid mage/prophet (for better damage skills) and hybrid templar/prophets (for better defense) are all viable even in endgame ASV content (never tried ARG).  

 

Rather, the problem is that the haste rolls are overpowered.  A max roll BT haste/haste staff + max roll BT haste essence can bring the total haste of a prophet to 76%, enough to have dogma and crimson chain completely up all the time.  I don't think it's actually fun to just press 1111111111111 the entire fight in dungeons though, so I play around with different builds.  I also believe that a class is NOT MEANT to be played using ONLY 2 abilities alone, so I think that haste rolls on rare gear should be *reduced*.

 

If the haste rolls did not give a ridiculous amount of 6% haste/roll, then sapphires, agates, and other caster gems are all viable for different variations of prophet builds.  

 

Waits for all the bashing from the other prophets

Nerf my haste again and watch me quit lol.

[Alteration]

the drop rate was flooding the market its fact and majority of the player base knew it,you took it as a direct attack due to the fact it was nerfed. It was being exploited and glims were flying out the economy itself even showed it with the crashing of gem prices,can't say paranoia when the facts show it happened. If they weren't flying out too fast hcs would have left it alone guaranteed...and No i'm not saying to undo it i'm saying make the rewards better but don't make them bleed gems out like crazy like it use to do. 

Yes ToC drop rate is exaggerated.  The reason gems were not flying out too fast, was not because they were rare, it was because NO ONE WAS DOING TR.  TR had a comparable drop rate to ToC, if you include relic and remnant gain, and willing to upgrade fairs.  The game should have had a dedicated gem farm anyway, where you can choose to not have any other drop other than gems.  Not everyone wants to keep running the same 1 dungeon over and over and over and over again, to get relics and remnants far far far far more than they would ever use for 10 characters even.  And like ComradeLewis and I said, 1 chance of glim drops in 1 hour, 2-3 glims on average per drop.  There were runs where 3-4 hours straight didn't drop a single glim, and some people "rage quitting" because the glim drop was not as high as the "rumors".  Yes rumors.  Rumors started by people who wanted to remain the sole holder of the entire Eldevin economy at that time, and believed by the paranoid ones who thought it would crash economy.  It did not crash economy, it brought it gem price down to a decent price, and seeing as how RG/BT drops far more gems than ToC ever did, the economy is STILL bad.  There are 20 times more people buying than selling gems.  Now, with less and less tanks running end game dungeons, gem prices are starting to inflate again.  All ToC ever did was stimulate the economy, because there were actually 40 players running for drops, which included lower level 25-39s and not just the end game level 40s, rather than 5 players running for drops and 25 players just afk buying in bank.  The main reason gems kept at high price is no one wants to run stuff.  And ToC gave them a reason to.  

 

BRO i use 18 abilities i dont use 2, 

HASTE IS A NECCESSITY, i like to have all my skills ready at any time(lol), with such measly ways to improve our healing power(sapphires) we need haste i feel that in my calcs to be usefull a glim sapphire could not be less them +1000 healing power, still to make them better they could be like ruby, and add a percentage to your healing power this way lower level healers would not be unbalanced a glim sapphire that would give 5%-9% more healing power would be legit aand maybe usefull.

 

now fabled sets was supposed to be a major update but the bonus is really unappealing and why vit again? gives us more 25 melee, sorcery and ranged along with the  vit  and we might be happier still for prophet 500 healing power is laughing at our faces.

Nope, crimson chain and dogma up 100% of the time is not balanced.  They're not supposed to work like rejuvenate.  And having area damage reductions up 70% of the time is just overpowered.  Fights should be more of a "I should time the casting of this spell right" than a "I'll just blow everything I have because it's up as soon as the effect ends anyway".  The fighting in Eldevin is too 111112222222333333331111111112222222233333333331111111122333333333333 (no 4567890-=) to nurture any players to become more skilled.  Rather, it's too simple, becomes so boring, and 1 more reason that end game becomes so monotonous, losing end game player base so fast.  

Nerf my haste again and watch me quit lol.

Took longer than I thought for the first raging prophet to post

Edited by Alteration, 10 June 2014 - 05:04.

[Alteration]

Anyways, I'm done arguing over this.  I can state facts and figures that I experienced as much as I want, but if people are brainwashed to believe rumors, nothing can change what they think ever.  In the end, HCS can always choose to solely listen to 1 player again in the future, and screw this game up however they want, and I'll still have no say in how they work, it's their game, not mine.  Besides, xp is right in the post below, this is all in the past.  I'm just pissed at how HCS, at that time, obviously just immediately listened to the 1 guy who never wanted Eldevin to become an MMO with a lot of players, and wanted to keep it small to be his personal playground, and the 1 or 2 paranoid fanboys, instead of actually verifying drops, getting the opinion of other players, and adjusting accordingly.  ToC was the most FUN area, especially because I got to meet many lower levels.  I, personally, never got more than 1 glim in 1 hour, but I enjoyed ToC a lot because it was something to do instead of staring at the screen for 6 hours LFG, I did it with friends (who have almost all quit by now), and made a lot of new friends as well (who also have almost all quit by now too).  But it's dead now, so whatever.  

Edited by Alteration, 10 June 2014 - 05:33.

[xpwaste]

There is no need to fight over what has been done. we all know that gets us no where, and probably they are just laughing at you all fighting over it.

It was good, now none goes there.

Hence proving it's bad.

Make it good by adding worthwhile drops.

The end.

 

The thing that the game has no rare drops at all that are worth while, other than in dungeons will obviously lead to people just being lazy as they know, they can only get the good stuff from dungeons.

And not all can wait for dungeons whole day so they quit in rage cuz they are being forced.

But anyways.

[HuMoR]

im too busy using multiple different reduction abilities to be pressing 123 only lol X D my haste I have is required for my build. not even raging just saying any nerf to general haste would ruin chance of unique builds,nerfing wep froll hastes might work as long as haste gems compensate. 

The meeting they are having today will hopefully cover a lot of points made in this thread.

[Grimwald]

Maybe they should bring back the big ugly "BETA TEST" on the screen when you select Eldevin?

 

With all the changes we had, it looks like we are betatesting a game..

[xpwaste]

 

 

The meeting they are having today will hopefully cover a lot of points made in this thread.

Isn't this in open beta right now?

That is what i thought anyways.

 

I hope that meeting becomes the eye opener, just look at the player online graph, that's an eye opener.

Edited by xpwaste, 10 June 2014 - 12:26.

[Alteration]

Maybe they should bring back the big ugly "BETA TEST" on the screen when you select Eldevin?

 

With all the changes we had, it looks like we are betatesting a game..

When the end game dungeons are not being tested before release, and being tweaked every 2-3 weeks based on feedbacks from players then yeah, this is still beta test imo.  Afaik, no one has completed ARG rumble yet, and he's been out for 4 weeks already, with several end game players who have already completed fabled set (and quit).  And no guilds, no ah, with a population of 60 online and declining daily on average,... yeah.  

[Susej]

111112222222333333331111111112222222233333333331111111122333333333333 (no 4567890-=) to nurture any players to become more skilled.  Rather, it's too simple, becomes so boring, and 1 more reason that end

i d o more like this (no 4567890-=) but some tanks need a 3(crimson)4(dp)3(cc)9(bene)5(erupt)6(blizzard) when emp is on to solidify their treat.

 

and then after this some mobs topple, reset agrro, with  a low haste that could be bad, sometimes dogma aint enough and cauterize is 90secs(40secs)cd , i could live with a haste nerf i wont leave the game for sure but you suggest something that would make healer have finger cramps lol.

 

I know that with some teams i only pop a spirit protect the tank and keep dpsing, but not in all cases and mostly with fully geared tanks, and not some cases especiallly when mobs/bosses aoe i want you to heal melees nicelly without haste in those cases sometimes i am forced to use FN as soon as i see anyone with less then 50% hp.

 

Its still undestandable and now i am running for fabled set just to say i have it so yes nerf haste drops.

Edited by Susej, 10 June 2014 - 15:16.

[xpwaste]

First > make the content right.[ This means breaking the linear pattern of dungeons and the basic idea of this post for sets and drops and solo bosses.]

Then> make the classes right [every class should have the choice of going aoe or pvp, no one shuold be overpowered, like sins in pvp or warriors in aoe.]

Then> make equips/drops/lootable stuff and gold cap right.

Then> add features like mail, ah, guilds.[goes with the 1st suggestion but can be live without it.]

Then> expect the game to grow.

[Alteration]

i d o more like this (no 4567890-=) but some tanks need a 3(crimson)4(dp)3(cc)9(bene)5(erupt)6(blizzard) when emp is on to solidify their treat.

 

and then after this some mobs topple, reset agrro, with  a low haste that could be bad, sometimes dogma aint enough and cauterize is 90secs(40secs)cd , i could live with a haste nerf i wont leave the game for sure but you suggest something that would make healer have finger cramps lol.

 

I know that with some teams i only pop a spirit protect the tank and keep dpsing, but not in all cases and mostly with fully geared tanks, and not some cases especiallly when mobs/bosses aoe i want you to heal melees nicelly without haste in those cases sometimes i am forced to use FN as soon as i see anyone with less then 50% hp.

 

Its still undestandable and now i am running for fabled set just to say i have it so yes nerf haste drops.

 

 

Originally, this was supposed to be a long post about how Eldevin dungeons are too easy compared to other games.  All a tank has to do is tank (which is easy btw, if 2 of the main aggro tools of templars are not bugged), all a healer has to do is heal (that's all they CAN do what with shitty hp bar that can't be moved/resized and only shows hp/mp), and all dps have to do is dps.  There is no need to actually be skilled in the classes you play, and whether you can do something or not is more a matter of gear check, than actually being good in the class you play (with exceptions of course, there are players who are clearly better than the rest).  But I realized I'm comparing this game to other games I've played before so I'll leave it at this.

 

Instead, I will ask.  If you are able to respec your build as much as you want, do you feel that it is impossible to heal ASV/ARG with only 40% haste?  Just because haste is too readily available, I feel healers have become lazy, and instead of trying out different builds, different gear, they just have to max haste to have all their skills available all the time.  In the first place, all a healer is supposed to do is heal (and buff party/remove debuffs/debuff enemies, but that's neither here or there), not dps or create aggro.  Sure there will be deaths.  Sure there will be moments where you have "OMG, if only I hadn't used cauterize on the warrior, I could have used it on myself, I wouldn't have died, and we wouldn't have wiped".  But this is all part of the risk in running dungeons.  But I'm sure a 40% haste prophet would still be able to run through ASV/ARG (as much as is completable right now).  

 

Earlier today, I ran ARG for the first time (not including one attempt weeks ago where several group members were laggy and we all called it quits without even defeating first boss).  We had a first time ARG running tank too.  I only had 40% haste +10% with think fast proc.  Yet, aside from several wipes where there was nothing I could have done even with 80% haste, we did the run quite smoothly.  And I was carrying on 3 different conversations via private whispers the entire run, so there might have been 2 or 3 deaths I could have prevented if I were actually concentrating more.  So I think it's possible to heal end game content without 75% haste perfectly fine.

 

As for sapphires being "too weak", compared to emeralds/topaz/ambers, sapphires have +20 more healing power / level.  And the formula to derive healing/second is the same as that to compute damage/second for offensive spells.  You don't see dps complaining that "emeralds are too weak, they only boost my overall damage by 2%".  Dps classes have the same available haste rolls available to them, but you don't see them clinging to old BT gear because their spells do not have as long a cooldown as prophet spells.  But even so, you can see some people choosing to use haste rolls over attack power/damage rolls before upgrading to fabled gear.

 

So my suggestions are

1. Add haste gems for build variety

2. Nerf the %haste value you get from random mod rolls (and gems should not be overpowered)

 

Long post short, nerf haste on blue gear, and add a haste gem to make it a VIABLE (not op, or the clear winner) alternative to other healer gems - heal power/crit/weapon damage.  Buff only adds 5%, pot only 3%.  Gems should NOT add 6% PER gem (like the random mod rolls are giving now).  

Edited by Alteration, 10 June 2014 - 18:31.

[Susej]

Originally, this was supposed to be a long post about how Eldevin dungeons are too easy compared to other games.  All a tank has to do is tank (which is easy btw, if 2 of the main aggro tools of templars are not bugged), all a healer has to do is heal (that's all they CAN do what with shitty hp bar that can't be moved/resized and only shows hp/mp), and all dps have to do is dps.  There is no need to actually be skilled in the classes you play, and whether you can do something or not is more a matter of gear check, than actually being good in the class you play (with exceptions of course, there are players who are clearly better than the rest).  But I realized I'm comparing this game to other games I've played before so I'll leave it at this.

 

Instead, I will ask.  If you are able to respec your build as much as you want, do you feel that it is impossible to heal ASV/ARG with only 40% haste?

 

 

37% in my case

 

yes its possible to heal but in that build i am a pure healer that heals                   and that is it, i will not let anyone die i will just wait longer to heal and will always need to start pulls with cauterize and bene, but what about the freedom of choise HCS publicity, is it a lie?

 

I done arg with my dpsi build with no one dying quite a few times( not rumble of course ) but i need to have most of my abilities ready at all times for emergencies.

I dislike the most ppl dying and imo there is only one possible GOOD build without haste.

 

So that does not fell well i will do it with my main after i get fable i have my gems prepared for it.

 

but i think i will get bored and move on to my alts...

Edited by Susej, 10 June 2014 - 18:52.

[Alteration]

but i think i will get bored and move on to my alts...

In the end, I think they have to work on the haste, alongside a rework of talents and cooldowns as a whole.  Guess like l3fty said, that's hard to balance.  Just hope they make something fun out of talents and abilities.  

[Susej]

In the end, I think they have to work on the haste, alongside a rework of talents and cooldowns as a whole.  Guess like l3fty said, that's hard to balance.  Just hope they make something fun out of talents and abilities.  

Me too mate.