179 replies to this topic

[Staid]

So I think it would actually be ok to not split the % based on the amount of different stats the item has. As for gold cost, some think is two cheap while others are saying it is two expensive. I think around the 3 million mark + Fallen Sword Points would work out ok

 

Thoughts?

 

 

It's too expensive, and here's why.

 

A final gold cost of 3,300,000 gold to FF 1 item equates to FF'ing a level 709.67742 item. (odd choice, but okay, whatever)

 

Add to that the gold equivalent of the 10 fsp that are also required in this FF'ing (180,000gold/fsp) and you get 5,100,000 gold.

 

Do that 9 times to FF just one 9 piece suit, and you get 45,900,000 OR 255fsp total, which averages out to 28.3333fsp/item

 

First let me say that this two part proposal of raising the Forging bonuses that forging an item creates & then also establishing a gold cap to the gold portion required to FF an item is both genious, and long overdue. Kudos to those involved in making this happen.

 

Now I believe that the current suggestion for these two parts are currently:

"Level 5: +50 / +10% (whichever is higher) to all stat points, +10% to enhancements"  (for a full 5 forges, or FF if you prefer)

 

And the latest target for the gold cap to be "around the 3 million mark + Fallen Sword Points" (that is, + 10 FSP & (most recently) 3,300,000 gold)

 

Presently, FF items above a few dozen levels actually saw less increase to thier total stat change than did the smallest of level items. And the higher level the item, the smaller then % increase to their total stats. Amending the original rule to forging to go from simply adding a few stat points to an items exhisting stats to adding on a percentage of those stat points to that item's stat points addresses that issue quite cleanly, and equitably.

 

The second part, the gold cap, while sounding reasonable (especially to those already accustomed to paying MUCH more to forge their gear) will not ultimately generate the kind of Forging explosion that I believe that HCS is looking to incite, even with the new 10% stat bonus as an enticing carrot.

 

(I, for one, will never be rich enough to be able to afford the suggested 255 fsp required to FF an entire suit. And if I can't afford to FF the suit, why would I bother with FF'ing one or two sets?)

 

Yes, I believe that there will be a resurgance amoungst the lower levels to forge once again (where the gold portion of forging is negligible) when an overall stat increase can now be had. But the lower levels already have access to so many FF'd hand-me-downs that this resurgance will be more of a slow fizzle then a sustained burn.

 

And yes, there will be some limited success in getting the most affluent of the higher levels once again obsessively FF'ing everything that they get their hands on. While these players will no doubt be churning out the yellow forging dots as if they were assemply line workers, they number but a couple hundred players. (And honestly, I think that's a optomistic estimate.)

 

I believe, in the long haul, that this will be the extent to which this game fix will reach.

 

So, I'd like to re-suggest...

 

 

from my previous post: staid, on 11 Dec 2013 - 04:09, said:

 

So, what if to FF an item were to now cost a player 5 fsp + (level*31*150)gold (that gold formula works with how 5 forgings add up presently by the way), where the level can never go above 250 anymore. Then the most it would cost a player to FF one item would be (working with 180,000gold/fsp) 5fsp + 1,162,500gold, or 2,062,500 gold (5 fsp coverted into gold). Extrapolate that out to cover all 9 items and it becomes 18,562,500 gold, or 103.125fsp. Fairly close to my target of 100fsp.

 

 The idea of "limiting" the cost presented to a player to Fully Forge one entire suit (any kind of complete 9 piece suit: PvP, Hunting, Arena, Stam Gain, Looking Pretty...), and then using that FF suit cap # to properly price the FF cap cost of a single item is a smart thing to do. It let's a majority of FS gamers accross the board participate instead of just a select few from the extremes of FS player demographics. And....it will prove to be a larger gold sink, and pull more FSP from the game. (FSP which will need to be replenished, thereby supporting the game.)

 

Let's take a quick peek into the economics driving this issue so I can show you how this can be.

 

For ease of argument's sake, let's say that for every 100 players that HCS can tempt into dropping FSP to the tune of 255/suit (and say that these players do this with an average of 5 suits), they just might possibly be passing up the opportunity to have 1000 players dropping FSP to the lesser tune of 103/suit (and they, both rich and poor player, when combined together, do this to an average of 2 suits).

 

Why should this matter? Let me show you.

 

Current suggested FF costs = 10 fsp + 3,300,000 gold

 

(100 players) * (5 suits) * (9 items/suit) * (10 fsp) = 45,000 fsp given to the cows & removed from the game

(100 players) * (5 suits) * (9 items/suit) * (3,300,000 gold) = 14,850,000,000 gold given to the cows & removed from the game

 

9 Item Suit cost adjusted approach for 1 FF item costs = 5 fsp + 1,162,500 gold

 

(1000 players) * (2 suits) * (9 items/suit) * (5 fsp) = 90,000 fsp given to the cows & removed from the game

(1000 players) * (2 suits) * (9 items/suit) * (1,162,500 gold) = 20,925,000,000 gold given to the cows & removed from the game

 

Given this (albeit simplified) scenario, reducing FF costs to 5 fsp + 1,162,500 gold actually turns out to be far more effective at altering the economics within the game & is likely to create an increase in game donations to replace the FSP removed from the game through Forging. How much more effective? 100% more effective (a factor of 2) when cosidering FSP tied to this. And 41% more effective when looked at as a gold sink.

 

Yes, these numbers are quite arbitrary, but I don't see them as being all that far off the mark. (That is, the idea of 100 players FF 5 suits at the first price & 1000 players FF 2 suits at the second price seems like a quite reasonalbe estimation.) Perhaps the Cows have enough data on player resources and spending habits to extract a more realistic supposition here. If so, I'd love to see those projections so I can learn more about the game. Honestly!

 

Until then, I must emphatically say, that I am not in support of the proposed FF cap equalling 10 fsp + 3,300,000 gold.

 

And until then, I must sincerely plead for a new proposed FF cap equalling 5 fsp + 1,162,500 gold.

 

Thank you,

Edited by staid, 11 December 2013 - 22:31.

[Gooner111]

The new proposed cost is actually even lower gooner, down to just over 3 million I think?

 

 Must have missed that one, will look back. Thanks Doom.  So suggestion now is 3m gold and 10fsp per item?

[Mister Doom]

 Must have missed that one, will look back. Thanks Doom.  So suggestion now is 3m gold and 10fsp per item?

 

Yep, as far as I can tell that's the current proposal. Seems quite fair too I reckon. lol

[Hoofmaster]

I think I'm happy with the stat adjustment now (i.e. the current system or a percentage of the total stat points, whichever is higher, evenly distributed).

 

So it's really what to do about the gold cost? Currently we're suggesting a maximum cost of around 3 million gold.

 

staid - Thank you for the detailed analysis of this and agree that more people would use the Hell Forge with your proposed changes, but I worry it may be a little cheap gold wise? Also we weren't planning to make any changes to the FSP cost.

[Mister Doom]

You know, while the whole topic of Hellforging is being discussed Hoof...

 

I don't suppose there's any way of bringing back that old game mechanic that let you 'un-forge' gear for a dramatically reduced return of your gold/FSP is there?

[Hoofmaster]

You know, while the whole topic of Hellforging is being discussed Hoof...

 

I don't suppose there's any way of bringing back that old game mechanic that let you 'un-forge' gear for a dramatically reduced return of your gold/FSP is there?

 

Nope - not planning to re-add that

[Mister Doom]

hahaha Fair enough. Worth a try

[RebornJedi]

what was that called again?!

[Egami]

I'm confused here - maybe I'm missing something ?

 

L1850 item, currently, costs 8,602,500 (+10 fsp) so, as far as I know, VERY little hell-forging is done and thus the gold gained from hunts stays in the game.

 

L1850 item (under the new proposal) would cost 3.3 million (+10 fsp) - that makes forging a much more attractive proposal (depending on stats of course) and thus would remove more gold from the game.

 

That's GOOD for the game economy, isn't it ?

 

What am I missing from your theory that it's BAD ?

Way too many variables for me to evaluate efficiently, ie, reasons to forge... etc. And major apologies on that.

 

What's bad? It's simply a gut feeling.

 

For me, the balance that needs to be reached here is the following:

 

Gold sink increase on forging > reduction in forging costs.

 

The main question (for me) is: On those 1850 items, are you going to forge them now thanks to the cost reduction? That's a question I can't answer because it depends on the item and what you are using it for. I think that it goes without saying that you will be "more inclined" to spend 3.3 million than the current cost. Perhaps the stat increase provides that incentive.

 

Whatever the current state of forging is for whatever items, this suggestion will reduce those costs across the board. I think it's logical that whatever that state of forging is, players were/are willing to pay that cost.

 

That cost would be reduced... from what level, I'm not sure. Again, I'm more interested in gold sink than anything else.

 

I think that the stat increase should already be a "major factor" that increases the left side of that equation.

 

However, as you state, if people aren't forging now.... will that left side of the equation increase enough?

 

I think it's an error to assume that an 1850 item that costs 8 million now to fully forge will be fully forged simply because the price drops by 5 million.

 

I definitely do believe that forging benefits need to be increased. And I believe that this entire post proves that, since that is what everyone is talking about.

 

What I'm worried about is the fact that the left side of the equation... the gold sink increase... ends up being a lot less than the right side of the equation... the reduction in costs.

 

That is what I think would be bad for the FS economy. Hope that's a bit clearer.... I know it's a lot to stomach, lol.

[Egami]

PS.. I just skimmed staid's post and want to applaud the work put in. I'm probably going to have to read it tomorrow since my brain power is already fried.

 

PPS. I've now looked at it again.

 

PPS. I've now read it entirely twice.

 

More importantly, I'm tired. Lmao.

 

So I'll leave it at... very nice, but  I "think" you assume no turnover in items. Your analysis might work if items weren't transferable. I'm extremely skeptical...

 

And I'll go back to the first PS and the "more importantly". ,oP

[Vladimir00]

Isn't that the whole point of those items anyway ? - they were "designed" to be heavily skewed so the hell-forging should reflect that too ?

 

I thought about that, honestly, since it would make sense for a weapon "designed" for damage to become stronger in that area as it is improved... but for me, I'd prefer the consistency of increasing and distributing the overall stats.

 

Since Hoof plans on keeping the +5, +10... etc. system for lower level stuff, I don't think it would be ideal to use two systems that distribute their stats in completely different ways, as that could lead to some odd results.

 

Besides, improving other aspects of a piece of equipment to compensate for some of its weaknesses makes just as much sense as focusing on its strengths.

Edited by Vladimir00, 12 December 2013 - 03:31.

[Adrianw]

The question of the cap is about what level it kicks. I read it is about 3 million gold. My question is at what level does this hit the 3 million limit. Then the question for hoof is are you happy from then on that the price does not change or do you want a new cost after you reach that level so that if the game reaches level 3000 it does not become meaninless again.

[Hoofmaster]

I'm pretty happy with the percentage of the item total stats distributed evenly and cap the gold at around 3 million. I think we should go with that for now and then if need be we can review it again in the future

[Mister Doom]

Do it do it do iiiit!

[Hoofmaster]

Do it do it do iiiit!

 

I'm just thinking - while I'm changing it anyway - would it be cool to see what the stat improvements that you would get if you increased the Hell Forge level on the selected item?

[Mister Doom]

You mean like a preview?

If it showed you a preview for each of the hellforge levels on a selected item that could be REALLY useful Hoof.

Edited by Mister Doom, 12 December 2013 - 18:22.

[Kedyn]

I'm just thinking - while I'm changing it anyway - would it be cool to see what the stat improvements that you would get if you increased the Hell Forge level on the selected item?

 

I think this would be a great idea - it'll allow us to figure out if the next "level" is worth the cost - granted the 5th level should be worth the cost anyway. 

[tharzill]

I'm just thinking - while I'm changing it anyway - would it be cool to see what the stat improvements that you would get if you increased the Hell Forge level on the selected item?

That would be awesome hoof. I really, really like this idea!

[Grimwald]

Maybe just a dumb idea, but a lot of people stopped hellforging crystall gear when it was clear that the item would break down very fast. Maybe give an 50% discount in gold cost for crystall gear??

[cyrus7]

I'm just thinking - while I'm changing it anyway - would it be cool to see what the stat improvements that you would get if you increased the Hell Forge level on the selected item?

I like this idea. Save us the trouble of having to do our own math.