118 replies to this topic

[donalde]

This is my 1st ever actual proposal to change PvP, discussed it shortly on global chat with BigGrim. (also, english is my not native language, so if I make mistakes, please try to understand idea I am talking about, not how I say it out)

 

To start with, when game was young, PvP attack against player was not guaranteed win as it is nowadays. [disclaimer, I am talking about "random" PvP attacks, or attacks to steal gold, thus excluding 'professional' PvP, ladder and BB where attacking player is more or less buffed constantly.] Recently, "random" PvP attack have come more an frequent as there are Daily Quests with PvP. Back in those old days, player wearing proper gear could actually win against attacker, when attacker was either careless or some enchantment kicked in. Nowadays, there are so many buffs that guarantee that attacker wins against un-buffed target. 

 

How about if we would give defender a fighting chance? Here is my suggestion:

When player gets attacked in normal PvP, result is not decided at the moment of attack. Instead, it goes to sort of indecisive state, where it wait until 24h (or should it be 48h?) is passed, or defender has surrendered (no chance to bounty, gold and xp loss cut to ..umm... lets say half, I don't know what would be good cut [also, look disclaimer]) or fights back. On moment of attack, amount of xp and gold target has in hand is recorded. Defender gets notification (in log?) that attack was made, it could be something like "Player attacked against you: xxx attack and yyy damage detected with zz buffs active, defend yourself! (or press surrender to end combat to your loss)." One hour cooldown is applied between attacker and defender.

 

If target decides to defend, target may change gear at will, also get buffed any amount of buffs(including potion buffs). Buff amount and attack/damage stat is there as I want target to see how how aggressive attack there is. I think showing attack and damage is good, thus giving target a fighting chance (adjust gear according attack and damage values, and calculate what effect buffs may have on them). But showing buff amount is still bit unclear to me, it seems like an good idea to me, but will it give too much advantage to defender? On attack and damage stat, I think only realistic approach is to so base attack and damage, as there are so many of those RNG buffs. What you think so far?

 

Now it gets tricky: how to determine gold loss? My suggestion is to have sort of pool for gold an xp. So every time attacker attacks some target, total gold amount in targets hand is recorded, and then apply gold stealing buffs and enchantments. The amount of stolen (and lost) is locked from target (so it cannot be used, sent or deposit) and locked amount is shown in status (so other possible attackers know that they can only access part of total amount of gold of target). What happens next? I have come up following possibilities:

1) attacker has attacked only one target, target looses on defend: attacker gets 100% of that gold pooled when attack was initialized, gold steal buffs are applied as they are, and some gold is lost. Target thus looses all locked gold. One hour cooldown is applied between attacker and defender. 

2) attacker has attacked only one target, target surrenders: half of pooled is subject of PvP gold steal, so some of it will get lost and some stolen. Target keeps the other half of gold. One hour cooldown is applied between attacker and defender.

3) attacker looses (or battle is unresolved): defender keeps all the gold, attacker's gold stealing buffs "backfire" eg are applied as defender had those casted, then gold and xp loss are calculated in same manner as it is calculated currently. One hour cooldown is applied between attacker and defender.

4) set time has passed (24h or 48h), attacker wins same way as in 1)

Those are pretty straight forward... But if attacker has attacked multiple targets, for ease of maths lets say 4 targets, and have pooled (locked) gold: 1st target 3M, 2nd target 800k and 3rd and 4th target both 100k, so total of 4M. So, following could happen:

5) attacker wins against target #2, target looses locked multiplied with percentage targets locked gold present on total pooled (locked) gold, so 800k x (800k/4M), which is 160k. One hour cooldown is applied between attacker and defender.

6) 1st target surrenders, attacker thus gains 0.5 x 3M = 1.5M. Or should it be 1125k? 4M x 0.5 x  (3M / 4M). One hour cooldown is applied between attacker and defender.

7) attacker looses (or battle is unresolved) against targets #3 and #4, same as 3)

8) set time has passed (24h or 48h), attacker wins same way as in 5)

 

Any improvements and other constructive feedback would be nice, as I am just asking how defender could have chance to defend without being buffed all the time. 

 

 

- donalde -

[Mzzery]

There already is something like this in the game: The Arena.... and GvG.

 

Also, there already is a way for defender to fight back: hit back.

 

If that's not something the defender feels comfortable doing, there's the bounty board.

 

As for gold and xp lost.... usually, a gold hit only takes 10% of the gold as it is. That's really not much imho.

And there's xp lock, and pvp protection...

 

A 10-stam hit ingame takes ... let's do the math here for a sec...

It takes 34 100-stam hits on the BB to take 5 levels. That's 34/5 = 6,8 hits for one level. Hits on the BB take 2 times as much xp as an equal hit ingame, so that means it takes 13,6 100 stam hits to delevel someone ingame. Now, most people who don't usually pvp won't use 100 stams, and it takes 136 10 stam hits to delevel someone ingame. Why should that be lowered, to make people lose even less xp? It's already less than most auto-gain in a couple of hours?

 

I seriously think the suggested changes would just kill PvP off again, and that's definitely not something I'd ever support.

Edited by Mzzery, 15 November 2016 - 20:50.

[donalde]

There already is something like this in the game: The Arena.

 

Also, there already is a way for defender to fight back: hit back.

 

If that's not something the defender feels comfortable doing, there's the bounty board.

 

As for gold and xp lost.... usually, a gold hit only takes 10% of the gold as it is. That's really not much imho.

And there's xp lock, and pvp protection...

 

I seriously think the suggested changes would just kill PvP off again, and that's definitely not something I'd ever support.

 

Arena is different, if randomizes opponent, here you just get chance to buff and gear yourself up to fight.

 

fighting back doesn't solve problem that attacker has all the aces in the hand when initializing attack. Attacking back will result BB ... and then we get back to same old argument about PvP'ing vs non-PvP and BB... lets not go in there. 

 

10% ... is that same if you attack for gold with 100 stamina? I seem to recall loosing most of my gold when 100 stammed, but this as well as xp lock and pvp protection has already been discussed. So lets not go on that way either.

 

Would it kill PvP if target has chance to defend himself? If yes, then PvP is truly broken, and it should really fixed. If not according my suggestion, how to give fighting chance to defender, same way as it had long time ago, when gear only could help you survive attack?

[Mzzery]

10% is what I usually get when trying to steal gold, so yes, that's on a 100stam... 10 stams usually take a bit less.

 

Yes, pvp is broken.... it would NOT be fixed with your suggested changes though.

 

It MIGHT be fixed if 100stams ingame counted towards smasher ticks though, and pvp protection was removed, and some of these really high lvl buffs were cut off by the knees... but it's pointless to suggest that, it would make levelers upset, and your suggestions would make pvpers upset if implemented. It IS a pvp game. The cows have said so in the past. You can't really expect to always play it safe. To make pvp this safe would really make it pointless all together.

 

And tbh, defenders do have a fighting chance a lot of the time. I win some hits when I am unbuffed, in my epics, and get hit by buffed up people. It does happen. It would happen even more if I bothered to gear up better when offline, too. If I was worried about losing a few hits, I'd just get pvp protection and turtle up, it's really easy to do. PvP is the one thing I enjoy the most when it comes to gameplay. I left the game for 1,5 years when they changed it in 2011. Lots of my friends left too. I came back, some of my friends did as well, but far from all. I don't wanna see soooo many people get that bored and leave again.

Edited by Mzzery, 15 November 2016 - 21:10.

[Mister Doom]

Make it simpler. Allow for a 'revenge hit'.

As an option alongside 'ignore' and 'bounty' allow for a revenge hit that can't be bountied.

 

Might tempt more people in if they know they can fight back without being smashed into the ground by a pvp'ers guild on the BB?

[Chazz224]

PvP in this game is wonderful and works brilliantly - To this I will also add the PvP in this game is more advanced than any other game out there which is also why I came back to this game. There are plenty of options in this game to help beginners learn the concepts of the game, all of which range from mentor's - tutorials - guilds - pvp ladder players - arena players - fs guide - wiki and etc..

 

As Mzz commented there are also "PLENTY" of "SOLUTIONS" when dealing with a PvP attack. You can reply with an attack of your own, you can bounty, you can ask friends and guild to hit on the bounty.

 

The posters idea of creating a 24hr period to gear up or counter attack is anti-climatic. There are no win buttons in this game, and perhaps that has frustrated some over time. The beauty of this game remains in its ability to be so flexible regarding how you prefer to dress/gear your character - or BB/ Hit back/ de-level. I don't believe creating a 24 hr cycle will do anything other than disappoint people and cause them to leave the game. This would be like leveling your character up and using all your stam but waiting a week's time to see .... if you lost in any of the combats - receive your levels - gold etc... No no and NO ! This idea is not an improvement to the game this would be horrible of which I can and will not support.

 

The poster clearly lacks in game experience - and while any suggestion to improve the game in any way is welcomed - I have to say this suggestion is entirley flawed on many levels including the main concept which would also be in contradiction of the game it self.

 

PvP - promotes activity - log on - talk to friends - see what happened. Wait... what? You wanna wait a week and think about how you should react? LOL Ideas and suggestions are good but talk to people in game - chat with the PvP community this won't work, but I thank you for sharing your idea with us all.

 

 

- Chazz

 

Edited by Chazz224, 15 November 2016 - 21:18.

[Mzzery]

They already  can hit back, AND they can get the hitter smashed "into the ground" too, if they want. It's really not all that hard and it really gets to me that people think they will get ground-pounded for a returned hit. Some might, but that's FAR from all, and FAR from always. If people just don't act all crazy when they get hit, they generally don't have any bad experiences with it when they hit back.

Edited by Mzzery, 15 November 2016 - 21:18.

[Chazz224]

Make it simpler. Allow for a 'revenge hit'.

As an option alongside 'ignore' and 'bounty' allow for a revenge hit that can't be bountied.

 

Might tempt more people in if they know they can fight back without being smashed into the ground by a pvp'ers guild on the BB?

Free hits in PvP  where there is no risk ... wow that's an idea - Can we suggest leveling where it doesn't use stam ? While we are on the improvement list I'd like to just fix Master Thief so that it kicks in 200% for any attack that ends with a victory for a PvPer =D fair right?

 

Perhaps ...?

 

Or maybe a little too game breaking perhaps or game killing instead...

Edited by Chazz224, 15 November 2016 - 21:25.

[Ryebred]

Couple problems I see with the suggested changes. Firstly in the proposal gold amount on hand is "recorded", thus making it impossible for the attacked to cash out any of it for fsp. This would create problems for the leveling players or even those attempting guild deposit. In said proposed idea would additional hitters be able to take advantage of the gold lock? The arena system and GvG allow equal PvP ground as it stands. I've heard similar idea's to the proposed get torn up by the community over the years, and don't believe this one will get any further.

Second issue I have is the age old belief that the hunter is helpless. Deflect has always worked better than I would like it to. The hunting sets today are not exactly easy to garnish guaranteed win over in the slightest. They are typically tremendously high in dmg, and attack. These two numbers coupled with some common sense buffs such as last ditch, force shield, and dark curse make guarantee of success improbable. Going a step forward, anyone hunting or doing gold deposit could presume that they have heightened odds of attacks and all of the buffs a protagonist can harness are also available to them.

I appreciate your attempt to suggest a system that is more favorable to the victims, however what you propose shifts probability of success too far into the victims hands, due to the lock, and ability to change accordingly. Would the attacker then get the ability to adjust to the adjustment made by defender?? See how complicated this can become. Sorry I just can't support such a idea that like every idea of the past is simply taking from the PvP community. Have not enough changes to game improved matters for the leveling player at the expense of the PvP community? If you want me to recap all of the changes to do so, please don't hesitate to ask. But I imagine my point is clear.

Edited by Ryebred, 15 November 2016 - 21:48.

[Mister Doom]

They already  can hit back, AND they can get the hitter smashed "into the ground" too, if they want. It's really not all that hard and it really gets to me that people think they will get ground-pounded for a returned hit. Some might, but that's FAR from all, and FAR from always. If people just don't act all crazy when they get hit, they generally don't have any bad experiences with it when they hit back.

 

You can't have it both ways though mzz. Your guild is so successful because it has established a fearsome reputation. Even if a player isn't going to be smashed into the ground if they respond to a hit one of your guildmates make, a lot of people assume they will. So they don't bother, they just shrug it off and ignore the hitter.

 

Allowing a revenge hit would take away the threat of the hitters backers if you like. I imagine it would certainly tempt some people to smack back. Surely that is the main goal, to get more people hitting and hitting back?

 

To be clear, if a person chose to make a revenge hit it would obviously have to invalidate the bounty option for the initial hit.

Edited by Mister Doom, 15 November 2016 - 21:29.

[Ryebred]

Idk how that happened

[Ryebred]

Sounds like someone is suggesting mzzery's fearsome guild operates without some degree of honor. When in reality it is only the fear of their resolve that prevents people from defense of unprovoked attacks. Those who know the difference also know this isn't true in the slightest. If one of hers did one of mine wrong I wouldn't hesitate to demonstrate my own resolve, and vise versa. I speak from experience, and can also assure people that polite diplomacy to clear up potential confusion goes a long way.

[sweetlou]

You can't have it both ways though mzz. Your guild is so successful because it has established a fearsome reputation. Even if a player isn't going to be smashed into the ground if they respond to a hit one of your guildmates make, a lot of people assume they will. So they don't bother, they just shrug it off and ignore the hitter.

 

Allowing a revenge hit would take away the threat of the hitters backers if you like. I imagine it would certainly tempt some people to smack back. Surely that is the main goal, to get more people hitting and hitting back?

 

To be clear, if a person chose to make a revenge hit it would obviously have to invalidate the bounty option for the initial hit.

You do have a revenge hit right now! Just hit back. What you are suggesting is to eliminate risk, and that isn't PvP! That is for GvG, Arena or not PvPing. I refuse to accept the last semblance of the Fallensword to be dumbed down. Might as well ask for xp and levels to be omitted...

[Mister Doom]

I did nothing of the sort.  Merely pointed out people fears, whether justified or not.

A revenge hit option takes away absolutely nothing from respectful, honourable players anyway.

 

I'm kind of having trouble now understanding the opposition to the premise. O.o

[Mzzery]

You can't have it both ways though mzz. Your guild is so successful because it has established a fearsome reputation. Even if a player isn't going to smashed into the ground if they respond to a hit one of your guildmates make, a lot of people assume they will. So tehy don't bother, they just shrug it off and ignore the hitter.

 

Allowing a revenge hit would take away the threat of the hitters backers if you like. I imagine it would certainly tempt some people to smack back. Surely that is the main goal, to get more people hitting and hitting back?

 

To be clear, if a person chose to make a revenge hit it would obviously have to invalidate the bounty option for the in initial hit.

 

I don't agree.... it would just discourage hits completely.... no leveler would ever hit a pvper ever again, unless they got hit first, because the pvpers are far more skilled and the leveler would just lose anyway, if the pvper wanted to make it so. Some levelers now hit for their daily quests..... it's a positive thing. Have you seen many of them get ground pounded for it? I haven't. I've not posted a single one, and I've not stomped a single one. I've hit back sometimes, but not even that most of the time.

 

Is it our fault that people fear us? I don't think so. We are fair most of the time. Sometimes we might not be, but that's rare. We ARE good at protecting ourselves, yes... but we never go after anyone without a good reason. 

 

Also... revenge hit.... revenge for losing 0,73% of a level? Or if they use the tools already available to them, like pvp protection: revenge for losing nothing? Revenge can be found on the BB.. no matter if they got 100stammed, and the pvper gets cleared with 10-stams, the pvper still loses twice as much xp. Isn't that already revenge? And if they had pvp protection, they can still make the pvper lose that xp.

 

I seriously don't like these suggestions, since I know it will kill pvp even more. I am not patient when it comes to see if I won a hit or not, that's why I don't play the Arena much. 

[Mister Doom]

You do have a revenge hit right now! Just hit back. What you are suggesting is to eliminate risk, and that isn't PvP! That is for GvG, Arena or not PvPing. I refuse to accept the last semblance of the Fallensword to be dumbed down. Might as well ask for xp and levels to be omitted...

 

It only eliminates the risk of the other player getting his guild and friends involved though. It doesn't eliminate the risk of the fight escalating into a on the hour back and forth between two players.

[Ryebred]

PvP protection, and experience lock are tools provided by HCS to prevent any sort of gain from the old hourly smackdown. Going a step further players still have the ability to post every hit whether it takes experience or not on the the bounty board where the aggressor still stands to lose a minimum of two times that of the victim.

[Chazz224]

It only eliminates the risk of the other player getting his guild and friends involved though. It doesn't eliminate the risk of the fight escalating into a on the hour back and forth between two players.

PvP involves "risk"

 

PvE involves "experience"

 

You know Shardoom you can still download Pacman if this is a problem, just helping here

[tharzill]

They already  can hit back, AND they can get the hitter smashed "into the ground" too, if they want. It's really not all that hard and it really gets to me that people think they will get ground-pounded for a returned hit. Some might, but that's FAR from all, and FAR from always. If people just don't act all crazy when they get hit, they generally don't have any bad experiences with it when they hit back.

I have to agree. Before dailies I was randomly  hit a few times and while not a true PvP player I did gear up, buff up some, and hit back. I got no flack at all. Of course I only used 10 stam on my return hit. It may have been a different colored "cow" if I had used 100. lol 

[Ryebred]

Make it simpler. Allow for a 'revenge hit'.
As an option alongside 'ignore' and 'bounty' allow for a revenge hit that can't be bountied.
 
Might tempt more people in if they know they can fight back without being smashed into the ground by a pvp'ers guild ton the BB?

Would this revenge hit remove the option of posting a bounty on the protagonist, or just be an additional factor in PvP. I don't imagine many would opt to do this if it was implemented as it equates to less potential exp loss for the attacker then the minimum bounty clear would. If you are suggesting a revenge hit plus bounty, that is promoting double dipping and again watering down PvP further.