43 replies to this topic

[Toreth]

I’d like to take a moment to proceed with laying out something of a change, or changes, to the way that GvG currently functions that isn’t a mentioned overhaul. In doing so, previous ideas to address GvG and its intricacies were taken into consideration when compiling ideas.

 

TL;DR:

• Updated RP Packs

• Notification System + Prep Time for Incoming Conflicts

• Offline Time for AFK Targets Reduced 7 Days -> 2 Days

• Level Ranges Expanded; +25 Levels Every 1,000 Levels Gained

• GvG “Seasons;” 3 Month Intervals with Achievement

 

I reached out to a few people in the GvG community to gather ideas and data to help with the way that GvG functions to come up with something that could inject some life into an otherwise stagnant aspect of FS.

 

The general consensus to GvG is that “whoever initiates is guaranteed AT LEAST a draw” because the idea is to rush the opposing guild and hit those targets who are offline in Epics and have zero or close to zero chance of fighting back. In doing this, the defending guild has to hit back into targets that are now buffed up after they’ve all utilized potions to nearly guarantee, at the very least, an unresolved combat.

 

The first proposed change to combat this would be a notification system; the game could send an “Admin Guild Mass” PM to all members notifying them of the incoming conflict. A separate idea could potentially be to enable notifications for incoming conflicts the way they are now for when opposing guilds take relics. Anything that helps notify individuals of incoming conflicts would be better than the way it currently functions. “The Guild ‘Minions of Mirkwood’ has initiated a conflict against you! You have X hours to prepare for incoming hits!” of which the “X” hours COULD count towards the 24 hour conflict timer, or it could be its own separate timer prior to the 24 hour window.

 

Another issue that was a general consensus is that if there’s a target who’s offline for a few days, then they were likely one of the prime targets. The idea here would be to decrease the inactivity timer for targets. It’s currently a seven day timer, however, most have said to decrease it to 48 hours and under.

 

The last general consensus idea was to have some GvG level ranges expanded more. Similar to how the PvP ladder scales and works now based on level, the idea would be to do something more in line with that as well. While leaving the lower brackets as they are (50-300, 301-699), the idea would be to have scalar level ranges to provide more activity. 700-1000 (+/- 100), 1001-2000 (+/- 125), 2001-3000 (+/- 150), 3001-4000 (+/- 175), 4001-5000 (+/- 200), 5001-6000 (+/- 225), etc. The minor change in level scaling would provide a boost in activity in the middling ranges that are barren at the moment provided the compression at the bottom at the “race to EoC” at the top.

 

The RP packs need to be updated, and there are other ideas that could inject more life than Epics currently do. Crystalline gear across all the levels available in FS, perhaps some niche potions that are distributed to each guild member at the time of purchase, etc. Having the items available as consumables that aren’t just a “one time purchase” here also helps with the demand of gaining RP as well.

 

The below are the RP Packs that have been brought up in discussion:

 

• Enchant Pack - 100 RP

  • Move Levels to 200; Change to Contain ALL Enchant Buffs (No Cursed)

• Fortune Pack = Stays Same

• Mastersmith Pack - 5 RP = Mastersmith 200

• Titan Pack - 300 RP

  • Titan Doubler 200

  • Light Foot 600

  • Avert Gaze 200

  • Teleport 200

• Leveling Pack - 300 RP

  • Stalker 400

  • Sacrifice 350

  • Overkill 350

  • Animal Magnetism 400

• Defense Pack - 300 RP

  • Avenger 300

  • Stalwart Heart 300

  • Healer 300

  • Fortitude 300

• Bounty Pack - 300 RP

  • Anti Deflect 400

  • Spell Breaker 300

  • Retaliate 300

  • Undermine 300

• Buff Provider Pack - 20 RP

  • Buff Master 250

  • Guild Buffer 250

  • Extend 250

  • Buff Enhancer 300

• Fighter Pack - 200 RP

  • Fist Fight 250

  • Critical Strike 250

  • Side Step 250

  • Riposte 250

  • Sharpen 250

 

In addition to the minor quality of life type changes mentioned above, another change mentioned would be the resetting of the GvG rating every three months or so akin to the PvP ladder with the reward being a simple guild achievement displaying “1st Place in a GvG Season” with the reward potentially being an additional relic slot, or base stamina gain so as to incentivize actively pursuing 1st place repeatedly to keep others from achieving the same.

The ability to provide individuals a competitive aspect to partake in while being rewarded for doing well, coupled with multiple opportunities, over time, to climb and attempt to make the most of a “fresh start” at the start of the three months will also help inject that liveliness into an otherwise humdrum aspect. We already have the resetting of rating present in the game, as mentioned, so transitioning that into the GvG area seems like a relatively easy and feasible way to go about helping bolster individuals’ pride in their ability to conduct themselves at the pinnacle of guild activities.

While there will be more feedback, I’m sure, from those who have a vested interest in the GvG aspect, hopefully this can serve as a basic backbone moving forward.

[yotekiller]

  No to the notification and waiting period.  People are busy and they can't always schedule a time to initiate a conflict then wait "X" hours to actually start hitting. 

[Emperor Sidd]

Like all the ideas, if I had to pick one-  Definitely the ladder system integrated to GvG. Reset every couple months with rewards to maintain activity and competition.

[EpicPiety]

  No to the notification and waiting period.  People are busy and they can't always schedule a time to initiate a conflict then wait "X" hours to actually start hitting. 

So you'd rather not know when a GvG is coming in? Arguably this is better following the problem you brought up. The problem is, someone can GvG a guild and be done before they can even prepare. It's far more competitive when both sides can strategize and prepare.

Could just be 1-2 hour notice, some notice is better than absolutely none.

Edited by EpicPiety, 13 June 2022 - 15:18.

[nickkc420]

Great stuff! Would love for GvG to be in any way competitive. 

[PrinceKash]

I have a question in regards to a draw, when no hits will be done (after the initial period to prepare).  Both guilds are buffed and starts defending. Does the attacking guild (initiated the conflict) lose rating if they don't complete all hits?

[Toreth]

I have a question in regards to a draw, when no hits will be done (after the initial period to prepare).  Both guilds are buffed and starts defending. Does the attacking guild (initiated the conflict) lose rating if they don't complete all hits?

The idea behind the proposed suggestions in the OP is just to provide simple fixes to the system that's currently in place.

What this means is that the way that the GvG conflicts are carried out with the 50/75/100 hits will remain the way that it is now, and that the resolution of the conflicts at the end of them will remain just as they are now so as to not need to change any coding from the Cows.

[Brinmoth]

Short and simple feedback: aka the "TLDR"

 

The part that excites me the most is the pitch to revamp the GvG ladder into a 'War League' style competition with prizes!

 

GvG has been in desperate need of a revamp for a long time and I hope this gets attention and 'official' feedback from a member of staff sooner rather than later.

 

Overall I believe the suggestions made in the OP provide a good baseline to work from in order to remedy the issues facing the format currently.

 

 

WARNING! LENGTHY POST AHEAD!

 

Detailed feedback:

 

Details on the issues I see with GvG and the ways to mitigate them can be found below.

 

Issue #1

 

Competitive play is not adequately rewarded

 

The amount of RP awarded is the same regardless of how 'difficult' each conflict is.

The GvG scoring system essentially doesn't care if you if you shoot 50 dead fish in a barrel or hit 50 moving targets and that is a serious problem!

 

We can't address RP without a discussion on the Expected Value (EV) of RP itself.

Currently, the use cases are relatively niche.

Some of the RP packs see play today but their utility is fairly conditional.

RP Epics are essentially 'trophy' items which are costly to produce and have low EV per Opportunity Cost (note this can change with the upcoming epic rebalances)

 

Issue #2

 

One sided games are too common

 

Related to issue #1 Lopsided conflicts are actively encouraged by the system mechanics as the win percentage or rating of the opposition is irrelevant in calculating the rewards, meaning the 'optimal' play to get the highest EV per opportunity cost is the line up as many 'soft targets' as humanly possible and mercilessly beat them repeatedly.

 

One sided games are not just confined to 'RP Farming' however, using the Initiator's Advantage it's actually very easy for the Initiator to put the opposing team in an unwinnable scenario. If you're not misplaying you are guaranteed to complete your hits netting you a draw at worst. 

 

Now that I've covered the most prominent problems I see with GvG as of right now, let's cover how these suggestions remedy them and some ways they can be expanded!

 

• Updated RP Packs

Adding value to the RP buff packs without making them overpowered, looking good!

 

• Notification System + Prep Time for Incoming Conflicts

Something like this would help mitigate the Initiator's Advantage, potentially enabling a defensive scramble which would prevent some those one sided games. All for it!

I'd even just take an automated mass message when conflicts start, honestly.

 

• Offline Time for AFK Targets Reduced 7 Days -> 2 Days

Seems reasonable, again it would create fewer openings for one sided games, all for it!

 

• Level Ranges Expanded; +25 Levels Every 1,000 Levels Gained

I don't really know how much of an impact this would have but hey, it could end up giving more guilds more options and more options means more play lines, in theory.

 

• GvG “Seasons;” 3 Month Intervals with Achievement

I think this is what GvG has needed since RP was made into a dynamic commodity.

Offering practical incentives for people to play competitively is really important for sustaining success. Just look at well, any game people play competitively for reference. 

Rank 1 on the ladder being purely a 'bragging rights reward' is a huge reason the field is pretty much dead. Offering 'Prize support' such as guild upgrades (or equivalent bonuses), bonus RP or exclusive items is what this aspect of the game needs in order to have both a practical reason to play for rank 1 and have rank 1 be a status symbol.

 

Shout out to you if you read this whole thing!

Hopefully you got some valuable insight from it and hopefully it took you less time to read it than it took me to write!

I spent way too much time writing this....LOL

[BigGrim]

1. The first proposed change to combat this would be a notification system; the game could send an “Admin Guild Mass” PM to all members notifying them of the incoming conflict. A separate idea could potentially be to enable notifications for incoming conflicts the way they are now for when opposing guilds take relics. Anything that helps notify individuals of incoming conflicts would be better than the way it currently functions. “The Guild ‘Minions of Mirkwood’ has initiated a conflict against you! You have X hours to prepare for incoming hits!” of which the “X” hours COULD count towards the 24 hour conflict timer, or it could be its own separate timer prior to the 24 hour window.

Agreed. Been asking for that since Conix told me notifications were being added to the app.
 

2. Another issue that was a general consensus is that if there’s a target who’s offline for a few days, then they were likely one of the prime targets. The idea here would be to decrease the inactivity timer for targets. It’s currently a seven day timer, however, most have said to decrease it to 48 hours and under.

I can see this.
 

3. The last general consensus idea was to have some GvG level ranges expanded more. Similar to how the PvP ladder scales and works now based on level, the idea would be to do something more in line with that as well. While leaving the lower brackets as they are (50-300, 301-699), the idea would be to have scalar level ranges to provide more activity. 700-1000 (+/- 100), 1001-2000 (+/- 125), 2001-3000 (+/- 150), 3001-4000 (+/- 175), 4001-5000 (+/- 200), 5001-6000 (+/- 225), etc. The minor change in level scaling would provide a boost in activity in the middling ranges that are barren at the moment provided the compression at the bottom at the “race to EoC” at the top.

Again, I can see this.
 

4. The RP packs need to be updated, and there are other ideas that could inject more life than Epics currently do. Crystalline gear across all the levels available in FS, perhaps some niche potions that are distributed to each guild member at the time of purchase, etc. Having the items available as consumables that aren’t just a “one time purchase” here also helps with the demand of gaining RP as well.

Been needing to update the RP packs again for a while. As for the potion idea, I've wanted that exact feature for years.
 

5. The below are the RP Packs that have been brought up in discussion:

• Enchant Pack - 100 RP
• Move Levels to 200; Change to Contain ALL Enchant Buffs (No Cursed)

• Fortune Pack = Stays Same

 

• Mastersmith Pack - 5 RP = Mastersmith 200

• Titan Pack - 300 RP
• Titan Doubler 200
• Light Foot 600
• Avert Gaze 200
• Teleport 200

• Leveling Pack - 300 RP
• Stalker 400
• Sacrifice 350
• Overkill 350
• Animal Magnetism 400

• Defense Pack - 300 RP
• Avenger 300
• Stalwart Heart 300
• Healer 300
• Fortitude 300

• Bounty Pack - 300 RP
• Anti Deflect 400
• Spell Breaker 300
• Retaliate 300
• Undermine 300

• Buff Provider Pack - 20 RP
• Buff Master 250
• Guild Buffer 250
• Extend 250
• Buff Enhancer 300

• Fighter Pack - 200 RP
• Fist Fight 250
• Critical Strike 250
• Side Step 250
• Riposte 250
• Sharpen 250

Seems cool. Can be discussed.

 

In addition to the minor quality of life type changes mentioned above, another change mentioned would be the resetting of the GvG rating every three months or so akin to the PvP ladder with the reward being a simple guild achievement displaying “1st Place in a GvG Season” with the reward potentially being an additional relic slot, or base stamina gain so as to incentivize actively pursuing 1st place repeatedly to keep others from achieving the same.

The ability to provide individuals a competitive aspect to partake in while being rewarded for doing well, coupled with multiple opportunities, over time, to climb and attempt to make the most of a “fresh start” at the start of the three months will also help inject that liveliness into an otherwise humdrum aspect. We already have the resetting of rating present in the game, as mentioned, so transitioning that into the GvG area seems like a relatively easy and feasible way to go about helping bolster individuals’ pride in their ability to conduct themselves at the pinnacle of guild activities.

I have no problem bringing this to the guys to discuss the possibility of these reasonably straightforward changes.

~ Grim

[ColtColt]

Any change to a competitive scene is fair

 

But there are still some flaws

 

1- Players will have their VL locked from the beginning to the end of the GVG, this prevents players from escaping the range (For example, my current LVL 268 and VL 299, if I make a GVG and reset my points, it will be unfair to the target)

 

2- Prevent any recruitment during a GVG (use your members to defend yourself)

 

3- The guild has at least 7 days of creation to start a GVG, avoiding fakes multis guilds ( Or maybe you need the guild medal to participate (defend or attack). )

 

*A GVG medal is interesting too

Edited by ColtColt, 14 June 2022 - 19:25.

[yghorbeviahn]

[quote name="ColtColt" post="1007800"
 
2- Prevent any recruitment during a GVG (use your members to defend yourself)
 
[/quote]

With Titans, you can't hit any Titans through the first 7 days you join a guild (Still able to hit through personal cooldown), so the system already exists, just adapt something similar, and I think it's a good thing to have...Guilds can still recruit anyone, but that person cannot be hitted, or hit anyone in the conflict.

[Toreth]

1- Players will have their VL locked from the beginning to the end of the GVG, this prevents players from escaping the range (For example, my current LVL 268 and VL 299, if I make a GVG and reset my points, it will be unfair to the target)

As much as I understand the want for this, this change would require a fair bit of additional coding due to the potential change to parameters. BG said in another thread that things can't go through a complete overhaul, so while there's some merit, I don't foresee this happening. Plus, levels are easy to lose now-a-days. There's always the potential to drop down further into a range of someone else.

2- Prevent any recruitment during a GVG (use your members to defend yourself)

Not a bad idea - I don't think completely locking out recruitment is correct, but something that yghor said is probably more feasible.

3- The guild has at least 7 days of creation to start a GVG, avoiding fakes multis guilds ( Or maybe you need the guild medal to participate (defend or attack).)

There's actually already a requirement for a guild to be level 100 to initiate a GvG conflict. Maybe you'd want to see that raised some?

I initially had ideas of the rewards from the mentioned GvG seasons requiring Guild Loyalty medals of Silver+, so the Guilds participating would be required to maintain some level of continuity to be rewarded. The only reason it was omitted wad because I'm unsure as to how much potential coding that would require.

[Emperor Sidd]

 

2- Prevent any recruitment during a GVG (use your members to defend yourself)

 

Disagree with preventing new members from GvGing - It sounds like you don't want all of your members to defend themselves.

A new guild member can only attack the targets in your guild who "should be be prepared" for GvGs.

 

Instead of restricting gameplay for players, you should focus on improving your GvG strategy and planning skills  

[BigGrim]

Instead of restricting gameplay for players, you should focus on improving your GvG strategy and planning skills

Not what is happening in this suggestion. Just stopping Guild Hopping from happening in the same way other Guild activities have a 7 day start up wait for new members.

 

~ Grim

[TheCount]

Not what is happening in this suggestion. Just stopping Guild Hopping from happening in the same way other Guild activities have a 7 day start up wait for new members.

 

~ Grim

I think this is a fine point. Making it a 7 day period would fit the overall theme of making GvG more competitive.

 

Disagree with preventing new members from GvGing - It sounds like you don't want all of your members to defend themselves.

A new guild member can only attack the targets in your guild who "should be be prepared" for GvGs.

 

Instead of restricting gameplay for players, you should focus on improving your GvG strategy and planning skills

 

Maybe you should plan to use the members you have before you initiate? Or even the guild you have. Rather than starting a new one or hopping around to hit a particular guild. Just a thought. If a preparation period before the start of the conflict were implemented, I would agree with you.

Edited by TheCount, 15 June 2022 - 13:24.

[Emperor Sidd]

Not what is happening in this suggestion. Just stopping Guild Hopping from happening in the same way other Guild activities have a 7 day start up wait for new members.

 

~ Grim

 

However in Titan hunting you are still allowed to hunt "personal" titans.

How would this work, are you not allowed to GvG at all ? are you a target for guilds to attack while you cannot attack back?

 

I can see guilds having their members leave every 6 days to keep them un-targetable during GvGs which ruins the competitive integrity of a guild vs guild.

Edited by Emperor Sidd, 15 June 2022 - 17:28.

[TheCount]

Titan Hunting is an activity that can be done solo. Guild Versus Guild in itself implies a group activity.

I think the disadvantages of leaving a guild every 6 days speak for themselves. And I don't believe a player should be a target for 7 days after they join.

The way you want to keep it opens the door for a guild, hypothetically, creating throwaway guilds at no risk to farm other high rating guilds to ensure they remain on top. While under the current system this isn't a drastic issue, if you introduce benefits for remaining #1 then that issue should be addressed in my opinion.

[EpicPiety]

Titan Hunting is an activity that can be done solo. Guild Versus Guild in itself implies a group activity.

I think the disadvantages of leaving a guild every 6 days speak for themselves. And I don't believe a player should be a target for 7 days after they join.

The way you want to keep it opens the door for a guild, hypothetically, creating throwaway guilds at no risk to farm other high rating guilds to ensure they remain on top. While under the current system this isn't a drastic issue, if you introduce benefits for remaining #1 then that issue should be addressed in my opinion.

The term "competitive" has been thrown around. Being able to avoid being GvGed by leaving every 7 days is hardly competitive. 

Just make it so New Guilds cannot GvG until they are 7 days old, If they drop below the minimum members required to GvG the 7 day CD starts again when they are over that threshhold.

Allow them to be targeted Defensively but not able to initiate during that period. 
 

Edited by EpicPiety, 15 June 2022 - 19:58.

[TheCount]

[/quote]

The term "competitive" has been thrown around. Being able to avoid being GvGed by leaving every 7 days is hardly competitive.
Just make it so New Guilds cannot GvG until they are 7 days old, If they drop below the minimum members required to GvG the 7 day CD starts again when they are over that threshhold.
Allow them to be targeted Defensively but not able to initiate during that period.

Can you name a guild that would prefer to leave every 6 days to avoid GvG? Regardless, your idea isn't bad. It would likely be harder to implement given that a 7 day cooldown already exists in game.

Edited by TheCount, 15 June 2022 - 20:08.

[EpicPiety]

Can you name a guild that would prefer to leave every 6 days to avoid GvG? Regardless, your idea isn't bad. It would likely be harder to implement given that a 7 day cooldown already exists in game.

Mark my words it will happen and it will not be fair or fun.

 

This is the least of our worries. I just want fresh life in GvG, it would be great.

Edited by EpicPiety, 15 June 2022 - 20:11.