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Repair Costs Game Breaker I.M.O.


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#1 Licker

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 17:55

As the game will soon be Steam bound I worry that most players will be very much put off by the cost of dying (repairs) the ratio is across the whole spectrum not just the high level characters. 
 
As a low level you have little cash and are shielded from repair bills but even at my low level (level 19) I find dying (repairs) majorly ruins the game for me. 
 
I know the economy of games is a game breaker for all titles but to be honest the repair bills are extremely disproportionate to the potential to earn the cash to pay for them. As a supporter technically I could buy cash but I think this is a very bad idea in any game. 
 
There are many threads like this one but I don't see that anything has been done to redress the imbalance. 
 
Games need repair costs but not detrimental ones. I cant see me ever tanking this game it would be a complete disaster. 
 
I use the shop as devs will know but I think that ignoring peoples plea for a more realistic repair cost will be a major flaw in any Steam launch as most players from Steam will balk at the repair costs. High repair costs do majorly destroy the enjoyment of games. All probably said before though not by me.

 

I am new (not new to MMO's) but thats my point the Steam players will be too. 
 
My apologies to all founders long time members in advance that see yet another tired thread about an old chestnut but the old chestnut is the Elephant in the room IMO


Edited by Licker, 30 April 2014 - 17:56.

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#2 HolyGhost

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:01

Something should def. be done. I recently respecced to healer tank to run people through tr/to3/maybe RG leaving me completely broke (100ep) and with little gold and nothing to sell I don't see how I am going to make it without investing time leveling a profitable profession or something. I have to only use my repair kits sparingly moreso than when I was healer/assassin/other classes

#3 FrostyDro

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:02

repair costs arn't bad at all, takes 5 minutes to gather 100 of any material, sell for 3g or more and there you go repaired your stuff.



#4 awollsd

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:10

so 5 mins of gatheirng = 3g    at 75g repairs (higher if gear gets broken) thats 25x5=125 minutes  needing to repair twice a day = 250 minutes so to repair twice that'ld be 4hours 10 minutes of gathering.. hmm but where would i find time to play.....  


no longer playing so feel free to ignore more (if i even post) just do still follow forums so MAY comment from time to time. 


#5 huhbum

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:14

Repairs versus loot income has always been a difficult balance point in the game. Note that Supporters get a bonus to vendor sell prices, so consider making friends with a Supporter to sell your loot for you.

 

The bonus is ~25-35% or so, so can go a long way to recouping losses from repairs, and yes, I find it unbalanced, and yes, there's threads on it! But in the meantime, at least there's a F2P workaround if you have a Supporter buddy.

 

In the old days, when repair costs were even higher(yes, they were even higher!), I used to fight weapons only, no armor, to save on repairs. Nowadays, it should be possible to break even or make profit in full gear, as long as you are careful to not die too much.

 

I do like how the game punishes players for being reckless with their lives! Although it is an adjustment from typical MMO's that throw money at you, for sure(with the exception of early-release FFXIV, where money was extremely scarce at first as well).



#6 FrostyDro

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:17

so 5 mins of gatheirng = 3g    at 75g repairs (higher if gear gets broken) thats 25x5=125 minutes  needing to repair twice a day = 250 minutes so to repair twice that'ld be 4hours 10 minutes of gathering.. hmm but where would i find time to play.....  

yeah okay you guys are really about to complain when a single gem you get sells for over 50g



#7 huhbum

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:19

yeah okay you guys are really about to complain when a single gem you get sells for over 50g

 

Don't worry about ol' LSD. He just dropped a bit too much and went AWOL from his brain.



#8 redsmokeboy

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:23

Key meaning of sell - ref to other player's not npc.

 

Drop rare, Most income is from npc trash item's, limited market on item do face to face trade's - spamming world trying sell item end up out lvl find some better in time sell that item.

 

Repair fee's as of right don't see to much of issue, As say game after all unlimted life's each life cost you findgroup duel with some one limited repair fee's MMO after all, to hard find 1 person group with youa round lvl.


Frog - Archer - lvl 49

Kazzarat - Templar lvl 49 Skiller

Redsmokegirl - War/sin lvl 49

 

Q PvP | No repair fee's | 1% EXP of lvl | Valor | Weekly 10 match | Achvemnt's | So much more Join when log | Click on cross sword via mini map Q solo |

 

Looking for group's RG/BT/ASV/ARG/ICC/CC Boss Killing/Arena 30+/ToC/ Need DPS willing come usly asking in world chat.


#9 Alteration

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:25

I've tanked full BT/RG, and it's around 15-18g repair/run... with no deaths.  Which is not so bad, 1 item at this level sells for around 15-30g each.  I do feel it is too high at this time, especially since the cows are silently removing all the solo gold grind spots in the game.  However, I feel this also forces people to learn to play, whether as tank, healer, or dps, to do runs more efficiently with less deaths.  Maybe putting a system to just pass green and blue loot around rather than rolling (and having 1 person win everything) would be good for recouping back losses inside dungeons.  


Edited by Alteration, 30 April 2014 - 18:27.


#10 awollsd

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:54

yeah i wasn't really agreeing with the suggestion to reduce the repair cost..  just pointing out that selling mats to pay repairs isn't as plausible a way to go as it sounded.

 

that said and now that i've showered and woken up a bit. personaly i would say leave the repair's how they are. the game  needs its gold sink's but the problem comes from them removing the ability to farm gold. before yeah it was too much.... people could get thousands upon thousands of gold solo and repairs was cheap   but now the repairs are more and the grind spots are less.... that starts to lead to a deficit 

 

after 3 hours of grinding lastnight i netted a loss of 23g the same thing about 2 weeks ago (the last time i played) i again netted a loss  i dont remember the time 2 weeks ago but lastnight only had 2 deaths.. 2 deaths in 3 hours isn't bad but a single death costs me 6-8g so lets remove that from the loss i suffered lastnight that means for 3 hours of grinding and 0 deaths i would had gotten a loss of 7-11g  and that i do think there is somethign wrong with.  


no longer playing so feel free to ignore more (if i even post) just do still follow forums so MAY comment from time to time. 


#11 Licker

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 20:20

All interesting points I am as I said a subscriber / supporter but I still choose to disagree I personally dont think the balance of selling goods to repair prices is even close to a decent ratio.

I have played many many MMO's (Still sub many) and I did play FFXIV at Beta and then for a bit after thats one of the reasons it is FFXIV Reborne now :P  they never listened to their customers .

This is a moot point everyone will either agree or not agree.

Does not change my suggestion though as I think it will have a big impact if the game is trying to attract Steam customers.

For me on a purely personal view I would stop playing the game if I am just playing to pay for repairs makes no sense to me.


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#12 Doja

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 20:59

I know exactly the grind that Licker is referring to as I would gather extensively around level 16-20.  I would be happy if I gained one gold per day after all expenses were paid.  And I was a subscriber from about day three.  However, now I am never pinched for gold playing as a tank the entire time and I'm not yet to the runs that yield the big money.

 

New Player Perspective:  The issue that Licker touches upon, although its not simply repair costs, is that it can be very difficult for a new player to get a grasp on how to economically play this game.  I'm not saying that repair costs can't be discussed from a high level perspective, but the focus is on how new players will view the game - where there might be a make/break aspect that causes them to keep playing or quit.

 

Tricks to Mastering the Economy:  I'm by no means the richest player in this game (in real money or game currency, but I'm focusing on game currency here) but earning gold has become a non-issue for me.  However, the methods I use may either: (1) not be available to all players; (2) may not appeal to certain players; and (3) are generally unknown to new players (i.e., a new player would have no idea unless they are told).  These are as follows:

 

(1) Selling EP for Gold:  If I really need gold I can usually sell EP from my subscriber account for gold.  Obviously, this is not available to many players who don't have subscriber accounts.

 

(2) Selling Flakes for Gold:  My number one revenue stream is selling flakes for gold or EP.  To any player who doesn't want to do daily professions quests, or to whom such quests are boring, this is not a viable option. [Other players earn money by selling large quantities of gathered resources.  I don't do this myself, but similarly this method requires doing a very mundane boring task to earn gold.]

 

(3) General Rule - DO NOT DIE:  I do die and when I do I pay the repair costs (although at lower levels a side trick is to simply craft yourself new gear if you're not using something fancy).  But dying is not good.  This game penalizes you heavily for it.  When fighting solo, this simply means being careful and not going places that are too dangerous.  But most deaths, I believe, come from going into a dungeon with an inadequate group.  Therefore, I'm quite stingy about what group I go with. 

 

I think the greater issue is with dungeon difficulty, not repair costs.  A level 20-23 player will want to go to Ohdar for equipment.  Realistically, though, even a full group of level 20-23 players won't be able to make it through.  Dungeon runs more often than not require at least one or two players considerably higher level.  But this is counter-intuitive to a new player.  Why wouldn't a group of level 20-23 adventurers be able to handle a level 20 dungeon?  And the queue style grouping for dungeons only adds to this problem.  A level 15 player unlocks Vault, gets a quest there, queues for it, and joins 4 other players his level and they get slaughtered.  Then the repair costs kick in, and they've earned practically nothing on the run.

 

Alt Experience:  I have several alternate characters.  My approach with them is so much different than a new player.  I make sure to have them craft equipment so they stay strong for their levels.  I don't go on any suicidal dungeon runs.  I don't fight above my level.  And guess what?  I don't even have to pass them gold, because playing like that you will earn more money than you spend.  But its only because of my experience that I know to play like this.  A new player will have no idea.


Edited by Doja, 30 April 2014 - 21:01.

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#13 Shane22

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:03

Ive complained about this many times, Ive also seen many people complain about it. The fact HCS have not resloved this is beyond me.



#14 FrostyDro

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:14

Repair costs aren't bad at all, this coming from a non-supporter. Sure i struggled, but you have to be economically smart and make it. Below level 20, a death probably costs you less than 2g. Mine 100 ore and you can repair twice. It's not bad at all, people are just never satisfied with anything on here



#15 FrostyDro

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:16

At level 14-15 if you know what you are doing you can solo boondocks, and make plenty of gold. I did that for awile and quickly was making over 100G an hour at level 14.



#16 Shane22

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:27

At level 14-15 if you know what you are doing you can solo boondocks, and make plenty of gold. I did that for awile and quickly was making over 100G an hour at level 14.

lmfao did you by any chance wake up from that dream.



#17 FrostyDro

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:25

lmfao did you by any chance wake up from that dream.

Not a dream, even if you only get 20 flakes in a hour X 5 gold which is the minimum price, plus you can get another 30g selling the loot that drops too. Now that i'm level 30 i've pushed upwards of 200g an hour.



#18 Doja

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:47

Repair costs aren't bad at all, this coming from a non-supporter. Sure i struggled, but you have to be economically smart and make it. Below level 20, a death probably costs you less than 2g. Mine 100 ore and you can repair twice. It's not bad at all, people are just never satisfied with anything on here

 

I agree that I personally don't think its bad.  But there are two groups who will be discouraged from playing under the current system: bad players (including kids) and players who want to play this like Diablo (i.e., earn enough money solely from killing and never ever, ever do any professions).

 

I love the professions aspect and the difficulty.  But if you want a respectable population changes need to be made to appeal to the masses.

 

As far as soloing boondocks at 14-15, my friend did that also.  But you have to be a very good player and you have to be a certain class.  As a tank, I couldn't solo it easy until level 25 or 30.


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#19 Alteration

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:44

Maybe retain the repair cost of heroic gear, and lower the repair cost of green/blue gear, and gear for pre-level-30.  This way, the gold sink is retained for mid to high level players, who have the ability to farm their repairs more easily, yet does not discourage new players from the large numbers.  

 

As I said earlier, I don't really want the repair cost to be lowered for high levels.  A gold sink is necessary and repairs is it.  It also forces people to think how to play better, to avoid dying and to prevent teammates from dying.  

 

As for tanks complaining that they do not have enough for repairs, this might be fixed when guilds are implemented, guilds can have system for some drops going to tank.  With public groups being the only option right now, it's all based on loot rolls, and there would be 1 person winning 10 items in a row.  


Edited by Alteration, 01 May 2014 - 08:45.


#20 Licker

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 15:03

I know exactly the grind that Licker is referring to as I would gather extensively around level 16-20.  I would be happy if I gained one gold per day after all expenses were paid.  And I was a subscriber from about day three.  However, now I am never pinched for gold playing as a tank the entire time and I'm not yet to the runs that yield the big money.

 

New Player Perspective:  The issue that Licker touches upon, although its not simply repair costs, is that it can be very difficult for a new player to get a grasp on how to economically play this game.  I'm not saying that repair costs can't be discussed from a high level perspective, but the focus is on how new players will view the game - where there might be a make/break aspect that causes them to keep playing or quit.

 

Tricks to Mastering the Economy:  I'm by no means the richest player in this game (in real money or game currency, but I'm focusing on game currency here) but earning gold has become a non-issue for me.  However, the methods I use may either: (1) not be available to all players; (2) may not appeal to certain players; and (3) are generally unknown to new players (i.e., a new player would have no idea unless they are told).  These are as follows:

 

(1) Selling EP for Gold:  If I really need gold I can usually sell EP from my subscriber account for gold.  Obviously, this is not available to many players who don't have subscriber accounts.

 

(2) Selling Flakes for Gold:  My number one revenue stream is selling flakes for gold or EP.  To any player who doesn't want to do daily professions quests, or to whom such quests are boring, this is not a viable option. [Other players earn money by selling large quantities of gathered resources.  I don't do this myself, but similarly this method requires doing a very mundane boring task to earn gold.]

 

(3) General Rule - DO NOT DIE:  I do die and when I do I pay the repair costs (although at lower levels a side trick is to simply craft yourself new gear if you're not using something fancy).  But dying is not good.  This game penalizes you heavily for it.  When fighting solo, this simply means being careful and not going places that are too dangerous.  But most deaths, I believe, come from going into a dungeon with an inadequate group.  Therefore, I'm quite stingy about what group I go with. 

 

I think the greater issue is with dungeon difficulty, not repair costs.  A level 20-23 player will want to go to Ohdar for equipment.  Realistically, though, even a full group of level 20-23 players won't be able to make it through.  Dungeon runs more often than not require at least one or two players considerably higher level.  But this is counter-intuitive to a new player.  Why wouldn't a group of level 20-23 adventurers be able to handle a level 20 dungeon?  And the queue style grouping for dungeons only adds to this problem.  A level 15 player unlocks Vault, gets a quest there, queues for it, and joins 4 other players his level and they get slaughtered.  Then the repair costs kick in, and they've earned practically nothing on the run.

 

Alt Experience:  I have several alternate characters.  My approach with them is so much different than a new player.  I make sure to have them craft equipment so they stay strong for their levels.  I don't go on any suicidal dungeon runs.  I don't fight above my level.  And guess what?  I don't even have to pass them gold, because playing like that you will earn more money than you spend.  But its only because of my experience that I know to play like this.  A new player will have no idea.

 

 

What an inciteful and mature post i thank you for seeing the whole picture.  
 
I really was just hoping this would be a suggestion and I accept this has been a well trod topic. 
 
Again to annoyingly repeat myself; "one which I do not think the Devs have really looked at properly". 
 
All the opinions in this thread are valid even the ones I disagree with. 
 
This is the challenge that the Devs have trying to make a game appealing, challenging and profitable.

 

I would like to add my forum experience has been very positive the members especially the  veterans have been very incite and courteous.

 

Shane thank you for your comment I have read your topics on this subject and your in game experience is welcome.


Edited by Licker, 01 May 2014 - 15:27.

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