45 replies to this topic

[vastilos]

The majority of medals earned in FS come from people abusing a system.  I agree with what you are saying 100% - but there must be a small % of players that approached the ladders honestly; worked hard to achieve tokens they have, and ticks they may have - why punish them because a bunch of rats found a button that gives them free cheese, and kept pushing it.  Rolling back ticks, and tokens isn't going to roll back all the fsp earned from the abuse.  I'd like to move forward in a real system - have not played ladder myself in 2 years (still have tokens unspent)  because I refuse to partake in the joke of a venue it has become. 

 

Yupp. But again, who cares if people get upset. In a case like this, if you release new ladder rewards and let the current ladder tokens be used then those who abused the system are getting rewarded even more, so why let them? Otherwise there will have to be a new type of ladder token introduced unless when the ladder resets you are forced to choose what your reward is going to be (which I don't see how that's going to work at all).

So with new ladder rewards it's either going to be:

- Make them bound.

- Allow those who earned hoards of tokens by abusing the system with more rewards and allow them to make more profits from selling those new ladder items.

- Either reset everyone's ladder tokens when the new items are introduced so everyone has a fair chance at getting the items equally or introduce a new type of ladder token so when you get to choose what ladder token you want if you earned them on your ladder (i.e. current ladder token or new ladder token).

Edited by vastilos, 02 April 2014 - 18:08.

[Chazz224]

A simple idea here to add some new "useful" Rewards to the pvp ladder and maybe bring some more players into the pvp ladder. Instead of just adding more items to make why not add some bound potions for each play style? (PvP, leveling, titan hunting, farming) These potions would have to be bound as to not instantly flood the market with them and thus making them worthless and not encouraging players to play and earn them.  

 

These potions could have a building system similar to the composing, in that the more tokens you use in them the stronger they become (capped at a reasonable level of coarse) and also used to increase duration( also capped).  The potions would need to be strong enough to make a leveling player want to use there stamina to earn them. I feel that AL level 300 would be a fair buff level for example. 

 

 

This is just a suggestion and would love feedback and other ideas from everyone here.

+1

 

I've commented a couple of times already supporting this idea of Bound Potions - I have explained reasons as to why and how they would encourage PvP and bring the community closer together as a whole. I have also suggested what I feel is a wonderful idea for the future of the PvP Ladder gear at the bottom of Page 1 as well. Both of these suggestions are in favor of the Original Poster's forum here.

 

Now I'd like to share some ideas with you all on what potions I would like to see from the PvP Ladder Rewards:

 

I will break these down into certain categories to ease reading them so people can share what I hope to be positive feed back. The break down will consist of PvP, leveling, titan hunting, farming.

 

Leveling Potions:

 

Potion of the " Supreme Leveler" contains:

 

Master Learner : +0.5% per point increase in xp from creature kills. <---- Capped at level 100 which would increase XP gained by 50% - Global pots that include AL 600 provide a 120% - normal Adept Learner at 175 is = to 35% I think this is nice and balanced.  [Please note this should only be available through the PvP Ladder no where else and especially not in Skill trees]

Animal Magnetism: Level 300

Stalker: Level 300

 

Potion of the " Wise and Wealthy ": contains:

 

Librarian: Level 300

Treasure Hunter: Level 225

Merchant: Level 225

Quest Finder: Level 225

 

Farming Potions:

 

Potion of the " Resourceful " contains:

 

Find Item: Level 1200

Four Leaf: Level 300

Resource Finder: Level 275

 

Potion of the "Mad Scientist"contains:

 

Inventor: Level 350

Inventor II: Level 350

Extractor: Level 350

 

Titan Hunting Potion:

 

Potion of the " Remarkable" contains:

 

Conserve: Level 300

Light Foot: Level 1200

Distraction: Level 300

 

PvP Potions:

 

Potion of the "Annihilator" contains:

 

Rage: Level 250

Savagery: Level 300

Retaliate: Level 300

Undermine: Level 300

Shame: Level 200

 

Potion of the "Spartan" contains:

 

Armor Boost: Level 200

Ageless: Level 200

Anchored: Level 200

Sanctuary: Level 225

 

- Chazz

Edited by Chazz224, 02 April 2014 - 22:30.

[Davros81]

Any potions should be bound if gained from pvp ladder rewards, surely if they were bound then this would encourage or force folk to participate in the ladder, rather than simply purchasing them from profiteering pvpers who bully everyone else off of the ladders. It's not rocket science, Chazz has it spot on in my opinion.

[Ryebred]

Yupp. But again, who cares if people get upset. In a case like this, if you release new ladder rewards and let the current ladder tokens be used then those who abused the system are getting rewarded even more, so why let them? Otherwise there will have to be a new type of ladder token introduced unless when the ladder resets you are forced to choose what your reward is going to be (which I don't see how that's going to work at all).

So with new ladder rewards it's either going to be:

- Make them bound.

- Allow those who earned hoards of tokens by abusing the system with more rewards and allow them to make more profits from selling those new ladder items.

- Either reset everyone's ladder tokens when the new items are introduced so everyone has a fair chance at getting the items equally or introduce a new type of ladder token so when you get to choose what ladder token you want if you earned them on your ladder (i.e. current ladder token or new ladder token).

If it were as simple as HCS doing what is right -then this is easy fix to abuse - however you need to sell the idea & have people getting on board with what you are saying- this is where you will run into a problem I think.  If you made new tokens to represent all moving forward + let the old tokens be used toward anything past (gear wise) -could be middle ground, yet still isn't going to be popular amongst big token holders - BOUND (key imo) consumable pots could be made up of components new & old extracts -yes it's complicated due to two forms of token currency -but a hell of a lot easier to sell then - just take all from everyone with no return.

 

I love the potion ideas Chazz has - looks like something for everyone is included in the lot & making them bound would force people to play if they want the goods - I agree with Davros, and others who believe simply allowing them to be made & sold - market would be cornered by those currently playing & little to no incentive would exist for new blood being infused into the mix.  Point is promote participation - chazz has the right idea to get this done- Cheers bro

[Pardoux]

 If you made new tokens to represent all moving forward + let the old tokens be used toward anything past (gear wise) -could be middle ground, yet still isn't going to be popular amongst big token holders

 

That was suggested (by myself and others) eons ago - and, obviously IMO, is what SHOULD happen ... All those ladder tokens gained (note, I said gained, not earned) by 1-hit resets should NOT be usable against new gear / potions ...

[BraveKath]

Why is taking the ladder tokens away extreme and unfair? I gaurantee that a majory of people that have tokens got them by abusing the system, so they should be taken away. You want to cry because you can only earn something by abusing a broken system? Be thankful I didn't mention anything about having the dominance medal ticks taken away also (since the ladder started), since, well, that was pretty much as much of a freebie like the ladder tokens were.

Starting everyone on equal grounds seems more fair than to let people who abused a system to control the market with the new ladder rewards.

 

While many have abused the ladder and sat there, still many actually earned their rewards and to make a sweeping punitive action isn't going to keep players in the game.  That can be a big deal breaker.  Some like myself fought and spent a lot of dots on gear, buffs and potions.

That would be like saying - we have players using scripts to titan hunt, okay then the Cows take back all epics throughout the game and everyone starts over.  

 

To have a new system of rewards going forward -- that's fine.  There would need to be then an alternative way perhaps to make some of the sets that require the old tokens and they should not loose all their value.

Edited by BraveKath, 03 April 2014 - 00:24.

[Chazz224]

That was suggested (by myself and others) eons ago - and, obviously IMO, is what SHOULD happen ... All those ladder tokens gained (note, I said gained, not earned) by 1-hit resets should NOT be usable against new gear / potions ...

The topic of tokens via those who already accumulated them and as to how they did so  is very controversial.  The Players who have them would argue for them - Players that don't have them would also argue against them. In the end what we would have is a tug of war ladies and gentleman. I am personally not looking for one. I personally feel it's best to let HCS decide what to do with current token holders as I personally don't feel I have the right to challenge how they acquired them.

 

Very much how Loyalty tokens were awarded to all players who donated - that idea may have seemed very unfair or not totally balanced to those who didn't donate prior to that point. I my self had almost 200 thousand Loyalty tokens at one time very much like the PvP Ladder holders today. I can also tell you that they went as fast as water from a pipe and I have almost nothing left and many people I know used and abused their stock of tokens over time as well. I do believe the same would be done to those who have current Ladder tokens now and if so who cares?

 

Let's not waste time arguing over the pennies - when what's really needed is support for the game - the games community - PvP especially since the majority can agree it's lacking and needs help right now. I don't want to fight or argue let's do our best here to stay on topic and not de-rail this thread that could be really good for the game - the players and even our devs.

 

- Chazz

Edited by Chazz224, 03 April 2014 - 00:04.

[BraveKath]

When you look at players what drives most are THREE things:

1) earning shiny medals

2) making dots

3) making levels or/or Prestige .... Prestige goes over well with PvPers and PvE'ers alike

RE-WORKED MY POST AND POSITION ... after careful consideration, I am seeing the merit in BOUND potions.

The potions Chazz lists sound very good and might be the adequate motivation to get more folks truly playing the ladder.  I think I would toss a high level Stalker or Overkill in there someplace as that's an added carrot as a buffs that everyone loves when leveling.
 

Edited by BraveKath, 03 April 2014 - 00:39.

[Pardoux]

Let's not waste time arguing over the pennies - when what's really needed is support for the game - the games community - PvP especially since the majority can agree it's lacking and needs help right now. I don't want to fight or argue let's do our best here to stay on topic and not de-rail this thread that could be really good for the game - the players and even our devs.

 

- Chazz

 

I doubt we're talking about mere pennies - new sets always command premium prices, at least initially ...

 

I think pretty much everyone active on the forum is supporting the game in one way or another - if not, they'd not be here. The purpose of the forum is for players to discuss facets of the game and provide suggestions for ways forward. Those opinions will, pretty much inevitably, vary from player to player and the onus is on the cows to find a "happy medium" that whilst doesn't please ALL players, pee's off as few as possible ..

 

The comments made aren't derailing, they're a continuance of the topic as initially raised. No-one is disputing the fact that the ladder (and the rewards) need a revamp - it's just suggestions as how to equitably accomplish that ...

[sweetlou]

From a distance - All or nothing in all aspects may seem more positive Luis, 
 
By having the PvP pots bound - they can not be sold - people will want them [especially if they are good] - those who have stacks of coins will have them available which is a plus - those who don't can join the ladder to get them which is an additional plus <------ this especially is the biggest plus because we want to create a incentive that draws people to play and learn the aspects of PvP more - if the pots are available in the AH they would allow people a way of obtaining them without having to PvP  <---- PvP Incentive is not intended to increase the financial aspect of each PvPer in game but to get more people to take part in PvP so they learn the concepts and actively play them.
 
Currently what makes the Arena work so well is that things are purchased and sold of course through competition and not bound to players. If we were to bind those items the Arena would need constant update other wise once the vast majority have the items (and obtaining them would be a joke as they would be too easy to get) the Arena would die.
 
In the PvP ladder this would have an opposite affect - more and more would join the ladder and buy the said potions [ I wish, that I could create the potions for PvP or have a say in helping HCS design them so both non PvPer and the hard or semi core PvPer benefit from such <---- would seriously prove to be a huge success actually.
 
Titan hunting seems to be doing well right now - hence no reason to offer a change to a venue / area of the game that is working [ " if it's not broke don't fix it" <---- A saying that applies here well]  Plus those who are accused of using scripts or what not can be looked at and if found guilty will be punished accordingly as HCS has told us which should increase participation in this area even more so.  Other wise if this part of the game was lacking and hurting as much as PvP is right now I would be open to ideas even if needing to bound the said Titan items but again at this time I don't believe that's needed.
 
Hope this helps explain and shed some light - again this all about drawing more people into PvP and having them learn and benefit from their experience of learning with continued incentives to play and practice what they have learned.
 
- Chazz

Sorry Chazz, you are arguing against your own stance by admitting Arena and Titans are doing great with having unbound rewards, yet you want to "force" players into the Ladder so they can get used to PvP. Really? Do you think you are going to twist a players arm hard enough with say AL1000 pots to get them to PvP? If being unbound in Arena, Titans and even GvGs works why it can't work on the Ladder baffles me. Have a little faith in the predictability of incentives.

[Melons]

I support the idea of bound pots. It would spark interest in the ladder and prevent the market from being flooded. I just hope the pots aren't OP if they are added. Some new buffs with these pots would be nice too 1 or 2 or maybe even 3? Anyways, I love this idea! +1

Edited by Tehmelon, 03 April 2014 - 04:39.

[markaaron]

Sorry Chazz, you are arguing against your own stance by admitting Arena and Titans are doing great with having unbound rewards, yet you want to "force" players into the Ladder so they can get used to PvP. Really? Do you think you are going to twist a players arm hard enough with say AL1000 pots to get them to PvP? If being unbound in Arena, Titans and even GvGs works why it can't work on the Ladder baffles me. Have a little faith in the predictability of incentives.

The idea is not to force those who dont want to pvp but to atleast give them a decent reason to try it and with a great reward. It would bring a aspect to the game where a player can actually earn something good for them selves but not be able to turn it into a major profit. I know and understand that some players do not want to pvp at all and thats fine. they can just deal without the rewards of it.   As for titans being bound that would be a horrible idea as multiple players often for them not just a single player.

+1

 

I've commented a couple of times already supporting this idea of Bound Potions - I have explained reasons as to why and how they would encourage PvP and bring the community closer together as a whole. I have also suggested what I feel is a wonderful idea for the future of the PvP Ladder gear at the bottom of Page 1 as well. Both of these suggestions are in favor of the Original Poster's forum here.

 

Now I'd like to share some ideas with you all on what potions I would like to see from the PvP Ladder Rewards:

 

I will break these down into certain categories to ease reading them so people can share what I hope to be positive feed back. The break down will consist of PvP, leveling, titan hunting, farming.

 

Leveling Potions:

 

Potion of the " Supreme Leveler" contains:

 

Master Learner : +0.5% per point increase in xp from creature kills. <---- Capped at level 100 which would increase XP gained by 50% - Global pots that include AL 600 provide a 120% - normal Adept Learner at 175 is = to 35% I think this is nice and balanced.  [Please note this should only be available through the PvP Ladder no where else and especially not in Skill trees]

Animal Magnetism: Level 300

Stalker: Level 300

 

Potion of the " Wise and Wealthy ": contains:

 

Librarian: Level 300

Treasure Hunter: Level 225

Merchant: Level 225

Quest Finder: Level 225

 

Farming Potions:

 

Potion of the " Resourceful " contains:

 

Find Item: Level 1200

Four Leaf: Level 300

Resource Finder: Level 275

 

Potion of the "Mad Scientist"contains:

 

Inventor: Level 350

Inventor II: Level 350

Extractor: Level 350

 

Titan Hunting Potion:

 

Potion of the " Remarkable" contains:

 

Conserve: Level 300

Light Foot: Level 1200

Distraction: Level 300

 

PvP Potions:

 

Potion of the "Annihilator" contains:

 

Rage: Level 250

Savagery: Level 300

Retaliate: Level 300

Undermine: Level 300

Shame: Level 200

 

Potion of the "Spartan" contains:

 

Armor Boost: Level 200

Ageless: Level 200

Anchored: Level 200

Sanctuary: Level 225

 

- Chazz

I really like the ideas for the potions chazz strong but not game breaking for sure. I would love to see something like this implimented!

[vastilos]

The potion Idea is good, but only if they stay bound.

[markaaron]

The potion Idea is good, but only if they stay bound.

100% agree. I feel that new items should be added in the current fashion not bound and the potions shall be bound for sure!

[vastilos]

100% agree. I feel that new items should be added in the current fashion not bound and the potions shall be bound for sure!

 If anything new is added to the ladder rewards, they should be bound. If they're not then don't bother with them. Why reward people who get 1st place on their ladders with 1 hit, who have hoards of tokens to monopolize the market for the new rewards which will allow them to make massive profits?

[markaaron]

If anything new is added to the ladder rewards, they should be bound. If they're not then don't bother with them. Why reward people who get 1st place on their ladders with 1 hit, who have hoards of tokens to monopolize the market for the new rewards which will allow them to make massive profits?

The value of the said items with be shot down so fast that it wouldnt even matter that they were new. I personally would be alright with not adding unbound stuff but some players would throw a tantrum if they didn't get something they can try to sell. I feel that the usually gear would be sufficient and de value fast enough to not hurt anything.

[vastilos]

The value of the said items with be shot down so fast that it wouldnt even matter that they were new. I personally would be alright with not adding unbound stuff but some players would throw a tantrum if they didn't get something they can try to sell. I feel that the usually gear would be sufficient and de value fast enough to not hurt anything.

 

And what makes you think this? If those people who have hoards of tokens slowly sell the new items, they would keep the prices high, thus making massive profits for themselves for doing nothing but staying opted in to their ladder and hitting someone once. This is the rare case where I would say that yes, the few bad apples did spoil the basket. If players have an issue, then they have nobody to blame but themselves, the community and the admins, since nothing was ever done to stop the abuse.

[Belaric]

On another thread we talked about the ladder. There I was in favour of old tokens being used for new items, new potions, to buy extra duration to prestige, or perhaps to buy the ability to use prestige in chunks. Also the idea of highly useful low durability crystal items that would sell, be broken and need to be remade/bought with ladder tokens. Ladder tokens to extend prestige duration is a huge incentive to players I think.

 

I felt that introducing a new token system for a revamped ladder might be simply too much work for HCS to want to do. (a new 2 tier token system? Do the old tokens get earned alongside the new ones, and only count towards the old rewards? How is it worked and given roadmap slowness do we think adding a complex project is going to speed up the fix any?)

 

Keeping the old tokens is the simplest way forward. I still think this.

 

Yes this means that folk sitting on piles of tokens might make a killing. That is not their fault.

 

The fault is HCS's for not fixing the broken ladder fast enough - its failings have been discussed for a very long time.

 

So is it bad apples, or is it the devs? A bit of both perhaps. Sorry devs.
 

I think revamp the ladder, introduce new rewards, suck up the fact that old tokens easily earned will be used for profit - even if those tokens were gained rather than earned - those players stayed on the ladder when others did not bother.

 

Bound vs. unbound. I think old tokens will be burned faster if unbound, I think the community is not so large that bound items will be a huge draw. I think selling into the wider community would work.

[vastilos]

Like I also pointed out, for the new rewards, there should be a new type of token. When your ladder resets you have a choice of what token you want, old or new. New gear/potions should be both made with new tokens and bound, unless the durability of the crystal gear is so low (maybe 10-15 durability) that there would be no possible way to make a killing off of these items. Unless for the new rewards you just make them bound, plain and simple. If people don't like that they're bound, like I said earlier, they have nobody to blame but themselves, the community and the staff for letting this abuse and mockery of a ladder system go on and be abused for this long.

[Chazz224]

 If anything new is added to the ladder rewards, they should be bound. If they're not then don't bother with them. Why reward people who get 1st place on their ladders with 1 hit, who have hoards of tokens to monopolize the market for the new rewards which will allow them to make massive profits?

This issue is addressed at the bottom of page 1 in this forum - keeping items bound for a 90 day time period will help the cause in many many respects. Having all ladder gear bound is unfair to many - pots bound yes - gear bound for a limited time ok but for good would be a mistake and a no no in my opinion.

 

- Chazz