14 replies to this topic

[huhbum]

Had some time to sit down and type for a bit this evening, so I thought I'd tackle one of the more interesting game mechanics issues from the past few months.

 

The topic for this post is attribute diversity and how it can be improved in Eldevin!

 

Currently, there is very little incentive to invest attribute points in certain attributes, depending on class:

 

-Only Tank builds invest any significant points in Vitality

-Only Rangers(and some Mage builds) have any reason to invest any points in Focus

 

At level 45 (with 2 points in wild instincts, 3 in marksman, 3 in sleight of hand, 10% attack power buff, 10% attack potion)

 

pure 6/0 ranged -> +207.24 dps, 5.544% ranged haste, 6.16% ranged dodge -> more than 0/6 pure focus

pure 0/6 focus -> +31.944% crit chance, +59.268% accuracy -> more than 6/0 pure ranged

 

 

I found that the damage is almost the same, just either higher base damage, or more reliable crit. With full items, end game crit gear, talent bonuses to crit, crit buff, and 2 points into torrent talent, can get over 85% crit rate 50% of the time.

 

-Almost all DPS builds are forced to go 5/1 or 6/0 in their primary damage attribute to remain competitive

-Energy is almost never invested in, for any build, for any class

 

HCS has acknowledged the issue about stat allocation diversity in previous patches, including the haste/dodge nerf and the attack power scaling nerf in previous updates. Additional nerfs, however, would be most unwelcome. The general sentiment in previous months of the developers would suggest that making stats like Vitality and Energy more attractive, would be preferable:

 

PvE Balance

We're working towards a big game balance patch. This will be aimed at leveling the playing field between a number of classes. We're also looking to seriously reduce the amount of haste and dodge you gain from your primary attribute (melee / ranged / sorcery). We're also looking at mana costs and cooldowns for all high level abilities (15+) with a view to improving balance of these before we release the new content. We are currently looking at ways of making energy and vitality more valuable. We will be aiming to do this patch sometime next week and everyone's respec cooldown will be reset. 

 

 

The question is, what can be done to buff Vitality, Focus and Energy in a balanced way to make them more attractive to invest in, rather than seeing only one viable stat allocation for each class?

 

A few major points to consider:

 

Enrage Timers / Rumble-style DPS race mechanics are extremely limiting, in that they punish lower DPS builds to the point where only glass-cannon builds are viable for the content. HCS staff have mentioned before that they disliked players investing no points in vitality; however, implementing DPS race mechanics on boss fights and in dungeons reinforces the need to min-max DPS and reinforces a desire to make glass-cannon builds. I have always been against the notion of enrage timers for this reason; players are already punished for playing slowly(since it takes more time to complete things). They should not be double-punished.

 

Additional nerfs to Melee/Ranged/Sorcery are not a viable option because the primary damage attributes have already been severely watered-down from their original incarnation, and will continue to scale poorly to level 50(with attack power scaling less well with each character level). Rather than nerf the damage attributes more, I highly suggest buffing the other attributes to make them more competitive.

 

Synergies with talents and builds should be considered in that buffing Focus or Vitality too much without considering game balance could end up making Templars and Rangers too powerful. Rangers already get a competitive DPS build by using a Focus-oriented build, so tweaks to Focus should bear that in mind. Vitality, as the bread-and-butter survivability stat, is used almost exclusively by Templars, so any additional defensive power bonuses to Vitality may make Templars too tanky(as well as still not being attractive for DPS classes to invest in).

 

Energy needs a significant buff. This cannot be stressed enough. Even with the severe nerf to Enlighten in a previous patch, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to invest in Energy(in fact, the nerf to Enlighten made it even less viable to invest in Energy, as Enlighten is the only max mana percentage-based regeneration talent that requires no combat action).

 

Attribute allocation and itemization go hand in hand. It cannot be stressed enough that a large part of attribute allocation is tied to the stats players receive on gears. Having more diverse gear options opens up the possibility for more diverse stat allocation builds(for example, if I had a custom chestpiece with +Melee, +Vitality, +Vitality, it might make me consider investing in Focus or Energy to compensate). Equipment creativity is something that Eldevin has great potential for, and the opportunities to improve itemization are endless! This has already been discussed in several other threads, but it is essential to mention it again, as the two issues are very closely related.

 

 

So, what now?

 

Fortunately, the developers are receptive to suggestions and ideas, and there are certainly a few avenues for improvement. Some possibilities:

 

-Giving the non-damage stats damage. This is the simplest and possibly most useful fix. Give a certain amount of attack power(less than the primary stat, but enough to be useful) for investing in Vitality, Energy, or Focus. This gives more incentive for DPS classes to actually invest some points in something other than their primary stat, buffs Templar DPS(since they almost always must invest in Vitality for survivability) and makes Focus Ranger builds even more attractive(borderline overpowered). The downside to this is that it's difficult to determine how much attack power(and which attack power) to allocate to each stat.

 

-Giving the non-damage stats additional defensive ability(defense, dodge, status resistance). These would certainly help tanks out, and make investment more attractive. The obvious downside is that there's no damage(which is currently priority 1-A in the current game world) so all DPS classes will still give the stats little to no consideration.

 

-Adding talents that synergize with non-damage stats. This already exists to a minor extent with the Ranger talent Wild Instincts(and is a big reason why heavy Focus investment is only really viable with Ranger builds) and seeing more talents like this could make some builds opt for a different stat setup.

 

-Buff the heck out of Energy. Seriously this stat needs some love: you could honestly double or triple the mana increase from each point in Energy and it still might not be worth the points(although it could potentially open up some very interesting max mana builds).

 

Anyway, food for thought! Improving stat allocation diversity could really add an additional level of intrigue and customization to the current game system.

Edited by huhbum, 20 May 2014 - 05:00.

[Narciss]

Im fully agree with this post.

 

One of the problem with current scheme is : Stacking ones attributes into a certain stat costs you nothing.

 

So my suggestion :

 

1. Use the diminished-value formula for most of those stats, especially the damage formula. What kinds? Bilinear, trilinear, logarithmic or simply use an exponential formula.

 

2. DPS formula should be calculated from at least two components, in this case : focus with melee/range/sorcery.

 

3. Vitality and/or energy should have a couple effect with focus. This is logical as you are more healthy and mentally correct, you would have more focus no? So simply, add some factor of these two stats into the "effective" focus formula.

 

4. You should add "general" dodge formula as well.  My simple suggestion : take two lowest stats from melee/range/sorcery, calculate the mean value, then use it as basic variable to determine "generic" dodge value. This is good to promote diversity, in addition to, this is logical as you can understand the art of dodging when you have mastered more than one combat prowess. Note: this wont work if the dps formula is still a linear one.

[huhbum]

 

Note: this wont work if the dps formula is still a linear one.

This is the crux of the issue, unfortunately. It's difficult to make wide, sweeping changes to the attribute system given the current DPS formula relative to enemy HP and enrage timers/mechanics.

 

Ideally, the attribute system would be completely overhauled into a more complex formula as you suggested(perhaps even doing away with the current system entirely in favor of a six-orb system more in line with Eldevin lore!) but I think that given the current system to work with, a more simple approach is merited.

 

As much as I am iffy about the idea of diminishing returns(DPS doesn't really need any more nerfs with how high enemy HP is already at 45, and will scale to 50), it might be a possible solution.

[cfR]

While I don't feel experienced enough as of yet to comment on the aforementioned issues, I would like to thank you for your intelligently thought out, well written and easy to follow post. You've not only opened my eyes up to some of the pertaining class/attribute issues, but done well to highlight suggestions for their improvement.
Hopefully the devs take note (I'm sure they are) and we see that large balance patch being spoken of. A +1 from me.

- cfR

[awollsd]

i liked my suggestion that i gave a while back.

 

REWORK WHAT ATRIBUTES GIVE YOU

Vitality = Add maximum health and increase health regen. 

• Change to- Add max health, increase health regen, and add to armor/deffences (something like 0.5% in each deffence per point so 40 points would give 20% melee, ranged, spell deffence this is not the numbers that would be used just as an example..) would neen to SLIGHTLY reduce amounts given by armors. 

Energy= Increase maximum mana and mana regen

• Change to- Increase maximum mana and mana regen, and increase haste (set it to what haste from atributes was before you nerfed it OR set it a little higher but reduces haste from equips some), and add to healing power (maybe will need to test it)

Focus = increased accuracy and crit chance

• Change it to - Increase accuracy and crit chance, and increase your dodge rates. 

Melee, Sorc, and ranged = Increase attack power, haste, and dodge rate.... 

• Change them to - increase attack power and crit chance 

This will first off make the other atributes more usefull so makeing them more used. aswell as give people choices..  like currently WHY would i add a point in vit for 20 health when i could instead add it to sorc for more attack power, dodge,  and haste....  would much rather end the fight faster than have that little boost of health if i end fight faster then wouldn't need the extra health anyway.... aslong as had enough to not get 1hit killed.... same goes for energy.

 

It would also allow people to focus builds and/or choose hybrids..  

[ComradeLewis]

I've repeated brought that topic up, and HC kept saying they would consider it. When they said they would include it in their next patch (1.1), and I noticed that nothing changed, they still acted tentative. It's pretty damn clear that the stats are broken when everyone is forced into the same stat build for their character type. However, this remains a topic they don't want to touch.

 

They need to remove haste from focus/melee/ranged. That would give incentive to add focus (provided they add haste to focus). Also, they should add physical resistance to health, and magic resistance to energy. Perhaps adding ranged resistance to focus is an alternative to giving haste there. Either idea sounds good to me.

 

I experimented with focus builds for prophet, and found it entirely useless. At low levels it seemed promising, but once you get to 30 or so you start wondering why you can't keep your team healed from easy pulls. Specing full sorcery, you realize that it's because a focus build is not viable in comparison, and you never go back. Focus build mages and prophets rely 100% on their equipment, talent, and gems for their focus, and give no variety to their stats.

[awollsd]

yeah it's just no matter what we'ld never trade out 3 bennificial boosts (dps, haste, dodge) from our main atrib for 1 (max health, or energy, or crit) from the other 3....

 

it's currently a choice between take 1-2 more hits before die OR hit harder, faster, and dodge more...    

Cast 1-2 more casts before need a potion OR hit harder, faster, and dodge more....

 

seems like a no brainer to me

 

so they deffenently need to concider something... AND NOT MORE NERFS that cause yet even more restrictions/limitations on that freedom they so eagerly use to advertise yet keep taking away.  i soooo loved the energy increase that they tried to use to FORCE us into speccing energy atributes that instead just limited our talent builds because we all have to use points for mana regen talents. (among many others)

[Narciss]

It's pretty damn clear that the stats are broken when everyone is forced into the same stat build for their character type. However, this remains a topic they don't want to touch.

 

Yes, it is true. Simply because melee/ranged/sorcery is a lot better than any other stat. In this case, again, imo, DPS and perhaps healing power should be changed into diminishing value. This can be simply done without nerfing it by checking the max/average DPS of current meta, then put the appropriate variable.

 

For example, using the following formula :

 

 

Setting the variables as follows :

A = 4

B = 0.001

C = 4

Level = 45

MRS = Melee/Ranged/Sorcery

 

We can get the following relation of MRS-DPS

 

 

It is not that difficult to find the proper variable if you know the "max" DPS plateau that you want.

 

With this, we will have more reason to put MRS into another stats if those other stats got buffed

Edited by Narciss, 20 May 2014 - 09:04.

[TakeTwo]

Since crit is based on "chance" ie. percent out of 100, it has a "success" ceiling. Things like attack power don't have a ceiling so they always have value. Things like accuracy/crit have a 100% ceiling. Would a Perfect Accuracy gem be even worth as much as a glimmering attack power gem?

 

Be mindful of the ceiling and floors if they exist (is there a limit to haste? i heard 50% reduction in cooldowns). You want to leave the game open to expansion in the future so we shouldn't improve something in a way that would put us close to the limit right now.

[EJK]

Energy= Increase maximum mana and mana regen

• Change to- Increase maximum mana and mana regen, and increase haste (set it to what haste from atributes was before you nerfed it OR set it a little higher but reduces haste from equips some), and add to healing power (maybe will need to test it)

How can you write what I was going to write? As for the healing power, make healing spells faster cast if you got haste, if it ain't like that already.

Focus could have a small increase in dodge.

Don't make any roof on dps, as I still want to play this game when 5 years has passed. 

[Grimwald]

While we are changing stats distribution we might also want to look at self-heal. At this moment only magic users are able to use selfheal buffs efficiently. I still remember a friend of my stating he was able to kill the L36 Crimson bosss alone without support because he was able to selfheal (cauterize was very important for him) to live long enough to kill the boss.

 

Magic and range users have got an huge advantage from attacking from long range, while an warrior needs to get into range first to kill his target. In a lot of cases he already has lost soo many HP that he needs to start usings potion just to be able to start the combat. Its all nice to have 1500 dps as an warrior, while an mage has less dps but if the enemy got 60k hp you still need a LOT of combat to be able to kill it. They say that the warrior is able to dish out a lot of damage. yeah right, but he often doesn't have more then 6-7k HP, which means that after each battle he needs to use potions or food to fill up his HP. And tbh i haven't seen Conan drinking all those potions just to keep alive

Edited by Grimwald, 21 May 2014 - 15:11.

[EJK]

While we are changing stats distribution we might also want to look at self-heal. At this moment only magic users are able to use selfheal buffs efficiently. I still remember a friend of my stating he was able to kill the L36 Crimson bosss alone without support because he was able to selfheal (cauterize was very important for him) to live long enough to kill the boss.

 

Magic and range users have got an huge advantage from attacking from long range, while an warrior needs to get into range first to kill his target. In a lot of cases he already has lost soo many HP that he needs to start usings potion just to be able to start the combat. Its all nice to have 1500 dps as an warrior, while an mage has less dps but if the enemy got 60k hp you still need a LOT of combat to be able to kill it. They say that the warrior is able to dish out a lot of damage. yeah right, but he often doesn't have more then 6-7k HP, which means that after each battle he needs to use potions or food to fill up his HP. And tbh i haven't seen Conan drinking all those potions just to keep alive

Spend some points in vitality?

[Grimwald]

Spending points in vitality is stupid. Even with spending ALL of your points in melee, my DPS is going DOWN, so if I choose vitality above melee my DPS wil go down making the battle even longer, and the few points in health wont matter much.

[Narciss]

How can you write what I was going to write? As for the healing power, make healing spells faster cast if you got haste, if it ain't like that already.

Focus could have a small increase in dodge.

Don't make any roof on dps, as I still want to play this game when 5 years has passed. 

 

If DPS is calculated with linear function as seen in current meta, other stats are obsolete. Melee/range/sorcery give too much of advantage, i.e.: damage/dodge/haste...

 

If you want to make an interesting role-play game, there should be different possibility for everyone to shape their character, where each of them should be unique and viable. In current meta, you can choose non melee/range/sorcery stats, but you became non-competitive.

 

Roof is needed exactly to counter this stat-stacking behavior. Note : instead of roof i prefer a diminishing value.

 

In longevity point of view, roof can be augmented if for example there is a second grade of class. There are many thing that can be done in future. However, now we are speaking the present meta.

[EJK]

 

However, now we are speaking the present meta.

It's harder to make huge changes when the game is more popular i.e. in RuneScape they made Evolution of Combat and thousands quitted. Making a good base is the MOST important thing you can do when you start making a game. (It's like building a house without good base) If they later buff/nerf some attributes many more will rage than now. 

EVERYthing you make that makes something worse have it's consequences, making the balance needed for future now is a good  alternative, as it won't give the game very bad reputation and the game can easily get a lot of new players via steam release.

So, my point is: make a good base with combat (and other) mechanics you want to see when the game is popular. 

 

So IMO, remove haste from sorc/range/melee and put it i energy. Nerf the dodge in sorc/range/melee and add dodge to focus. This will make energy good for aggressive classes. Focus would both be good for defensive and aggressive. Vitality would be good for aggressive. 

 

I usually think in longevity point of view.