86 replies to this topic

[Pardoux]

I just don't understand what proof you could have found.

 

and that's not something I'm going to explain - nor do I need to.

 

The cows accepted it as proof - that's all that matters

[EpicPiety]

and that's not something I'm going to explain - nor do I need to.

 

The cows accepted it as proof - that's all that matters

Why don't you want to educate the community on how you found your proof?

[gomezkilla]

and that's not something I'm going to explain - nor do I need to.

 

The cows accepted it as proof - that's all that matters

I saw a ghost. I'll tell you all about it except any of the details. I even convinced a few others that I saw it and they believed me. Now we should move to rid the whole world of ghosts.

 

That is basically what your argument is. Unfortunately, I won't believe in ghosts until proof is provided.

 

Sorry, but until proof is provided, I will stand by the "innocent until proven guilty" argument.

 

Gomez. 

[Pardoux]

Why don't you want to educate the community on how you found your proof?

 

1. Discussing tickets in the forum is frowned upon

 

2. Revealing the evidence I found means that the "problem with the script" could be "fixed" and thus become harder to detect

 

3. Why should I ?

 

You can try to browbeat me all you want, but, as I have repeated many times, the proof I found was given to the cows, found to be accurate and player reprimanded. That's all there is to say on the subject.

[Pardoux]

I saw a ghost. I'll tell you all about it except any of the details. I even convinced a few others that I saw it and they believed me. Now we should move to rid the whole world of ghosts.

 

That is basically what your argument is. Unfortunately, I won't believe in ghosts until proof is provided.

 

Sorry, but until proof is provided, I will stand by the "innocent until proven guilty" argument.

 

Gomez. 

 

And, as I keep saying, I don't need to provide proof to the other players - just the cows.

 

If I was wrong, nothing would have happened. Something did happen. End of ..

[EpicPiety]

The sky is falling...the sky is falling...anyways the community seems to be strongly against removing it according to the poll.

Edited by Intimidation, 01 July 2014 - 22:32.

[Pardoux]

The sky is falling...the sky is falling...anyways the community seems to be strongly against removing it according to the poll.

 

They do and Zorg doesn't want to build it into the core code, so my idea seems doomed to failure, unfortunately.

 

Ah well, c'est la vie

[jshep74]

The fallensword helper, whilst an approved script, can be user-modified to provide extra functionality that the "core" helper doesn't provide. As such, for those with javascript knowledge, it can - and does - offer the ability to cheat in various facets of the game.

 

Zorg is reluctant to add the core features into the game - see http://forums.hunted...516#entry873841 for reasons - so, to combat the problem, here's a simple yes or no question.

 

Should the FSH be banned from the game ?

This is what I will say FSH runs off of GREASMONKEY.  As long as we have greasmonkey in the game players will be able to write scripts that run off of greasmonkey.

 

This is a FACT, im not voting either way since I know the benefits FSH bring to the game, but since it is run off of greasmonkey it will always be open to people making user scripts that bypass the cows security.  lets face it they write a script to prevent a script and then all another players has to do is alter that script!

 

If people need examples i will give you an example of another game that uses greasmonkey ....its called KOC....short for kingdoms of camelot.  Here is web site where they provide cheats for KOC.....http://userscripts.o...pts/show/101052.   I stopped playing this game years ago b/c every time the game support would fix an illegal script, there were scripters that would have a work around up and running within a few hours. 

 

You can check out the proof here if you like.... I use KOC as my example b/c no one this can use KOC scripts to benefit them in FallenSword.  However, it was scriptors just like this who wrote the script for FSH PLUS, which is now banned from Fallensword.  However, there is nothing to prevent someone from writing a new script and using Greasmonkey to run it.

 

 

 

AGAIN I AM NOT VOTING EITHER WAY, I JUST FEEL THAT IT IS ONLY FAIR TO SHOW HOW PLAYERS CAN WRITE SCRIPTS AND USE GREASMONKEY TO RUN THEM ON FALLENSWORD.

Edited by jshep74, 01 July 2014 - 22:59.

[Pardoux]

Maybe a way forward to stopping scripting would be ...

 

(if it's possible - I don't know if it is ?)

 

the players browser is checked to see if they are using Greasemonkey or Tampermonkey or any other "scripting" add-ons and, if so, block access at that point.

 

I know it's possible for a website to easily determine which browser and which version a client is using, but can this be checked for / detected ?

 

If so, wouldn't this make scripting impossible - or, at the very least, much harder ?

 

Course, I could be asking for something impossible here LOL.

[Kildek]

Bottom line ? - it's not YOU I need to convince, now is it ?
 
My reported (and acted upon) report WAS FSH related - I don't need to prove that to anyone but the cows - and they knew it was related to a customised FSH.
<snip>

You already discussed with HCS to get Fs-helper integrated into FS and banned, but were told off by Zorg. Now you try to raise enough public support, in order to pressure HCS to do it any way.
You do not need to convince me in particular, but the majority of the players. When you raise a topic like this, you must be prepared to provide some hard evidence. But whenever someone asks you about it, you start dodging around and question peoples motives using underlying accusations. If you do not feel the need to provide any proof, but to the cows; maybe a public forum is not the right place for something like this.

Edit: Corrected some typos

Edited by Kildek, 02 July 2014 - 04:41.

[Pardoux]

You already discussed with HCS to get Fs-helper integrated into FS and banned, but were told off by Zorg. Now you try to raise enough public support, in order to pressure HCS to do it any way.
You do not need to convince me in particular, but the majority of the players. When you raise a topic like this, you must be prepared to provide some hard evidence. But whenever someone asks you about it, you start dodging around and question peoples motives using underlying accusations. If you do not feel the need to provide any proof, but to the cows; maybe a public forum is not the right place for something like this.

Edit: Corrected some typos

 

Umm, where, exactly, was I told off by Zorg ? LMAO

 

"While this is possible, I have 2 reasons for not wanting to do this. Firstly, the FSH features are generally quite advanced and aimed at experienced players. Having them in the base game may confuse new players. Secondly, it would be many months of work for very little end result as far as players who already use the FSH are concerned. They wouldn't be getting anything new out of it." <- Zorgs exact quote

 

Jeez, talk about trying to make a point and missing it by a mile ? - There's NO tell off from Zorg there, simply a "I don't want to do this, for the two reasons listed".

 

As for providing hard evidence - I already have, to those that matter. Making that evidence available in the forum would just made it easier for someone else to avoid being detected doing the same thing and, as such, I will not be making it available here. You can like it, or you can lump it, but that's how it's gonna be .

 

There is PROOF that (modified) versions of the FSH are being used for cheating - there is the statement from Zorg that he doesn't want to spend the time bringing the remaining features into the game code.

 

Thus - as far as I see it - there are two options that still remain open.

 

1. Ban the FSH and all scripts to try to reduce cheating

 

2. Continue to allow the FSH and say that the associated cheating is only by a very small number of players so let it be ..

 

The majority of the vote seems to prefer keeping the fsh and turn a blind eye to the cheating. So be it - I've lost the vote.

 

That's the end of it. Am I happy with the vote ? - of course not - but hey, ya win some, ya lose some..

Edited by Pardoux, 02 July 2014 - 05:00.

[BadPenny]

FSH hasn't been updated in so long and there are so few features left that FS doesn't already have built into the game, why is this such an issue, anyway? I only use it for 2-3 things myself, and then, very rarely.  Just stop all this constant bickering already.   

[Kildek]

Umm, where, exactly, was I told off by Zorg ? LMAO

 
Right then. English is not my first language, but i think the meaning is still understandable. Zord did not agree to, what you wanted HCS to do, so you try to raise enough support in the forum, in order to get HCS to do it any way.
Better?
 

<sniü>
The majority of the vote seems to prefer keeping the fsh and turn a blind eye to the cheating. So be it - I've lost the vote.
<sniü>

And more accusations. There is a difference between "turning a blind eye" and disagreeing, that banning FS-Helper could help to avoid cheating.

[Pardoux]

 
Right then. English is not my first language, but i think the meaning is still understandable. Zord did not agree to, what you wanted HCS to do, so you try to raise enough support in the forum, in order to get HCS to do it any way.
Better?
 

 

Better - and yes, that's true. It's been done many times before by many other players - sometimes with success, sometimes not - all depends on the vote. Given I've lost this vote, I'm assuming it wont happen ..

 

As for the rest of your post, we're just going round and round in circles. You say something, I say something, you repeat it, I repeat it. Nothing further is being added.

[evilbry]

Maybe a way forward to stopping scripting would be ...

 

(if it's possible - I don't know if it is ?)

 

the players browser is checked to see if they are using Greasemonkey or Tampermonkey or any other "scripting" add-ons and, if so, block access at that point.

 

I know it's possible for a website to easily determine which browser and which version a client is using, but can this be checked for / detected ?

 

If so, wouldn't this make scripting impossible - or, at the very least, much harder ?

 

Course, I could be asking for something impossible here LOL.

 

IF it was possible to easily detect where grease/tampermonkey were installed, there would be a lot of web based games terminating accounts, such as in the game exampled by jshep earlier.

 

 

 

 

With that said, HCS has somewhat dug themselves into quite the hole here.

- HCS have backed and supported FSH for a long time. When FSH was thriving, there were regular updates from an active team. Those regular updates would often mean that any custom modifications need to be readded (and perhaps recoded) as often as an update was pushed out. Back in the day when tangtop was the driving force, we would get updates a couple of times a week. These regular updates would have kept on top of most custom modifications.

- With HCS supporting the script for so long we have a significant portion of the playerbase now using it. As a result if it breaks from an HCS update, all hell breaks loose (just look at the wailing and gnashing of teeth when the AH update went live).

 

 

So again we ask ourselves, what can HCS do?

- They could slightly change the web content of their pages to render FSH unusable, but at the risk of frustrating the players who have come to rely on it, it could be a bad business decision.

 

The problem with that though is coding something server side is a lot harder than coding something client side. The bugs, if any, will have the potential to be a lot more significant. FSH, which is client side, if there are bugs, a feature won't work. This for the most part^[1] won't consume FSP(into a black hole), waste stamina or destroy items.

As a result coding FSH into backend code, will require a lot of regression testing. This takes time and resource(staff), and it's why "just because the code is there in FSH, we can't put it into game code" and "It's not a 5 minute job" are voiced when people suggest making it game code.

 

 

I personally think the implementation of FSH into game code and then fudging with the html code to break FSH (and other potential scripts) is a positive way forward, and for the many players who for whatever reason haven't used helper will get an enhanced gaming experience.

HCS don't feel it has a valuable effort:gain ratio, that's their call. If they see a lot of people would like FSH features implemented in game, it could well lead to being reconsidered.

 

 

From a developer perspective, I personally would like to see FSH implemented into game code, simply because of the performance improvements there would be. Some of the FSH features use significant amounts of bandwidth and make a lot of page calls which are not needed. 

 

 

 

[1] Yes I know that we should never underestimate the stupidity of an end user. There are ways within helper to destroy gear etc but it does have warnings in place. Warnings won't stop everyone.

[chslayer]

Assumption, much ?

 

The proof (and yes, I mean PROOF) was enough to get the player involved a warning. Who it was and what exactly he was guilty of is between that person and the cows, and I'll not go into more details - but, suffice it to say, the PROOF was there.

 

Also, said proof wasn't from the players admission - more from his actions.

* sorry, side note from thread topic*

 

Has the way tickets are being  dealt with been changed?

 

Last I knew of, the complainee wasnt kept in the loop to how the 'investigation' was going, unless another ticket was submitted asking for an update, or more info was required. Has that changed?

 

Regardless tho,you ( collective you) were never told the actual punishment or action that resulted  from your complaint. eg ban, holiday etc

 

Has that changed?

Edited by chslayer, 02 July 2014 - 10:33.

[Davros81]

people should never be told of the actions that come from the result of a successful ticket being submitted when that ticket is trying to get another player punished.

[beLIEve]

No, FSH should not be removed. It provides us with excellent addons that HCS hasn't/won't put in to the game. Yes, peope can/will modify the script, but who's to say that they wouldn't have done that on their own without FSH? I think without FSH, the game would be nearly unplayable for me. I've used FSH since day one, every single day. Unless, of course, it was broken. Then I just bit my toungue until it was fixed. HCS can ban individual users for cheating. I think making FSH a bannable offense would kill the game slightly.

[BadPenny]

No, FSH should not be removed. It provides us with excellent addons that HCS hasn't/won't put in to the game. Yes, peope can/will modify the script, but who's to say that they wouldn't have done that on their own without FSH? I think without FSH, the game would be nearly unplayable for me. I've used FSH since day one, every single day. Unless, of course, it was broken. Then I just bit my toungue until it was fixed. HCS can ban individual users for cheating. I think making FSH a bannable offense would kill the game slightly.

Yes, yes *nods vigorously*

[duktayp]

Should the FSH be banned from the game ?

 

before you try taking away   ***The Helper***

 

gotta ask yourself one question:

 

"how many fingers do i really need on that hand?"