339 replies to this topic

[Trailman]

I understand and only HCS can say if they can code it but I have a question for you: would you be ok with my suggestion I posted here if HCS say that they can code the pvp system?

Mary xp loss has been a part of this game and I have accepted it as part of the game but many levelers don't. Steal my gold that is one thing but to take both my gold and my xp I am not happy. To answer your question overall yes but that is because I am willing to make a choice. BG needs something where no choice is needed. I have never opted into the ladder because it is not my thing. No true leveler would ever opt into something that will cost xp. BG's stated objective is to protect the xp of ALL players at ALL times. This does not do that nor does my BB solution but we are trying to find alternatives to no xp loss in the game period.

 

I would be very inclined to the idea of soft/hard if HCS can find a way to keep this from being abused

Soft 10 stam no xp loss no gold loss no bounty

Hard 100 stam no xp loss but there is gold loss and the risk of a bounty

 

But to be very honest I don't think it can be coded without months of work.

 

Note to BG it you do something like this or other ideas that have been broached please change the color code so all attacks are not bright red. This will help a great deal from my past experience.

Edited by Trailman, 14 October 2014 - 04:47.

[Trailman]

Edit

 

At this point I believe Hoof and BG will make a decision about what will happen.

 

We need to wait until that thread is posted at this point. I may object to what they do but under no circumstances will I impede because I trust them to do what is right for the game. Hoof and BG have my full support.

Edited by Trailman, 14 October 2014 - 23:01.

[mary4ever]

my current system is:

 

raw hits raw => raw BB

raw hits soft => soft BB

soft hits soft => soft BB

soft hits raw => raw BB

this is based on raw BB losing XP as punishment and soft BB losing pvp xp as punishment !!!

this is based on that xp LOSS being as "valuebale" as pvp xp LOSS as a punishment !!!

 

in my 1st post in this topic I said: For Soft PvP system look at Dooms post at: http://forums.hunted...-loss-from-pvp/

 

my system works IF the soft side (Dooms forum) manages to make pvp xp somehow valueable !!!

 

I have one option if they can not make pvp xp somehow valueable:

 

UPGRADED SYSTEM

 

raw hits raw => raw BB   (stays the same)

raw hits soft => raw BB   (DIFFERENT)

soft hits soft => soft & raw BB   (DIFFERENT)

soft hits raw => raw BB   (stays the same)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

raw hits soft => raw BB   (DIFFERENT):

a raw player hitting soft would only be for gold so will result in raw BB !!!

 

soft hits soft => soft & raw BB   (DIFFERENT):

in the soft system you will have 2 options to attack a player: "gold" hit or "pvp xp" hit

if you attack someone with a "gold" hit then you will be posted on the raw BB !!!

 

if you attack someone wit a "pvp xp" hit then you will be posted on the soft BB !!!

furthermore any gold loss from a "pvp xp" hit will be ZERO, only pvp xp will be lost !!! no gold !!!

 

I think this should against this: The biggest issue and exploit with the system being proposed by Doom is that people can go after gold with impunity.

meaning any attacks that take gold will result on the raw BB (to counter EXPLOIT / ABUSE)

 

PS: I will later post a detailed description for a better undersanding but in the meantime please tell me guys what you think about it !!!

is it good, bad, any exploits, anything missing + with a REASON (WHY), thanks

Edited by BigGrim, 15 October 2014 - 08:56.

[Removed18058]

hmmm just a question eh? 

 

 

first of all i figure that the raw side would be more rewarding than the soft side due to the added risk of exp loss

 

 

now how can we be sure that there won't be a group of people getting some sort of agreement to make sure they get most of the rewards and hammer down anyone who would contest that to the least 

 

 

so if someone wants to test out the raw side he or she would first have to become buddies with the raw group and make sure that he/she doesn't get destroyed instantly.

 

 

say there's 2 guild on the raw side non stop they agreed to not massively delevel eachother and just rotate on who get's what reward someone from a third guild non-friendly to the other 2 would join into the raw side and could possibly be hammered down to the point where they just give up.

 

 

I personally don't think that 2 systems could work.

 

I'd personally suggest some sort of new thing where people get thrown in a pit and the game decides who you fight so you can't be picky on who you 100 stam and who you 10 stam for instance. maybe the pvp colloseum concept i really don't know...

 

 

thing is we want to give people a shot on the rewards and not create a monopoly on them and rather have the best person out there claim it.

 

 

just my 0,02$

[wil72]

Man, it's so difficult to come up with a new concept, I take my hat off to you Mary.

 

There is one problem i see though, isn't your proposal almost identical to what we already have in place? Only soft V soft being of any difference. All other hits would be placed on the Raw side of the Bounty Board where XP loss can occur. The only real change is what banner you decide to choose for PvP, the Bounty Board is virtually untouched, is this not full circle, almost?

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

[mary4ever]

I tried keeping the system as simple as possible, I believe the more change/complicated you make a system the lower the chance to get it accepted / for new and current players to easy & quickly understand it

 

with the upgraded system:

you can CHOOSE which PvP system to join (raw PvP or soft PvP), pvp as you much as you want + satisfy the rest (potion sellers, players while hunting getting attacked, ...) in short people who have lots of gold on hand, if they get attacked for their gold they will get to punish their attacker with XP LOSS, regardless of whether you are on raw PvP or soft PvP system !!!

 

it is very important to get ALL gold hits on the raw BB for many reasons, PvP does not only effect PvP, it effects other aspects of the game too !!!

EXAMPLE: if potion sellers are not able to punish their attackers (with xp loss) then it would be safer for them to sell all their potions for FSPs and not for gold anymore !!!! currently DC225 potion for 30k-40k in AH, it would then jumb to DC225 potion for 1 FSP !!! that is about 5 times more expensive !!! prices would explode and the real victims would be the new players who joined, lower lvl players + "poor" players RESULTING in a declination of players which is very bad for the game !!!!

 

in the soft pvp system you can pvp to your heart's content and only "pvp xp" will be won / lost as long as you do a "pvp xp" hits!!!

ALL gold hits will be on the raw BB !!! the victim who lost gold to you should be able to punish you !!!

 

It is a WIN - WIN situation for both parties

 

the BB will be active too because you want to get as much "pvp" rating / "pvp xp" rating as possible, the more you get the higher the reward (tokens) you receive

Edited by mary4ever, 14 October 2014 - 18:49.

[Leos3000]

So your new win-win is pretty much changing the current ladder to soft pvp, where there is no gold or xp loss if you opt in

Edited by Leos3000, 14 October 2014 - 19:03.

[BadPenny]

I haven't stated my opinion yet, waiting to see what others might say.  In essence, this could  be a good model... HOWEVER... there are big flaws....   

• Two systems that can overlap are just too confusing for the regular run of the mill player...
• I can go for soft PvP, and just depend on my Thievery and MT enhancements to steal all the gold with soft 10 stam hits (yes, it happens all the time... 5 times yesterday, to be exact, 2 via bounty clears and 3 via my prestige run... a total of about 750K) and get away with it.
• I opt in for raw, steal your gold, and you hit me back... you're a leveler, you're just trying to gain my respect... But I'm a rude and obnoxious player, and I post you, on MY raw BB.  You lose levels because you just wanted justice... Is this fair?  In no fashion is this fair...

​

 

Those are some major problems there.  Basically, I'm not optimistic about your model.. There are too many loop-holes and it's lop-sided in the "raw" side's favor.... Sorry, your dog just don't hunt... from a PROFESSIONAL PvPer's perspective... not trying to insult or flame you, just giving my honest opinion... Thanks for trying, maybe a redraft would make it more feasible, it's really hard to say....

 

 

Thanks for letting me share

Edited by BadPenny, 14 October 2014 - 19:07.

[mary4ever]

So your new win-win is pretty much changing the current ladder to soft pvp, where there is no gold or xp loss if you opt in

no, there will be 2 systems: raw PvP and soft PvP where you choose which one you want !!!

please read my post about the UPGRADED SYSTEM

[mary4ever]

I haven't stated my opinion yet, waiting to see what others might say.  In essence, this could  be a good model... HOWEVER... there are big flaws....   

• Two systems that can overlap are just too confusing for the regular run of the mill player...

raw hits soft => raw BB

soft hits raw => raw BB

if you find this SIMPLE overlapping too confusing then sorry, do not know how to make it more simple

• I can go for soft PvP, and just depend on my Thievery and MT enhancements to steal all the gold with soft 10 stam hits (yes, it happens all the time... 5 times yesterday, to be exact, 2 via bounty clears and 3 via my prestige run... a total of about 750K) and get away with it.

that is impossible because on the soft PvP you only get pvp xp if you attack with a  "pvp xp" hit, you do not get any gold, if you want gold then attack with a "gold" hit BUT a "gold" hit will get you on the raw BB !!!

you will not get away on the soft pvp system if you hit someone with a "gold" hit  !!!!

• I opt in for raw, steal your gold, and you hit me back... you're a leveler, you're just trying to gain my respect... But I'm a rude and obnoxious player, and I post you, on MY raw BB.  You lose levels because you just wanted justice... Is this fair?  In no fashion is this fair...

​every attack is a possibility to get bountied, nobody is forcing you to attack anyone !!!

you can not expect to hit someone and then to have a 100% guarantee to not get bountied !!!

once you press the attack button which is of your own free will then there is a POSSIBILITY to get bountied or not, the decision to bounty lies always with the victim !!!

Those are some major problems there.  Basically, I'm not optimistic about your model.. There are too many loop-holes and it's lop-sided in the "raw" side's favor.... Sorry, your dog just don't hunt... from a PROFESSIONAL PvPer's perspective... not trying to insult or flame you, just giving my honest opinion... Thanks for trying, maybe a redraft would make it more feasible, it's really hard to say....

please read my post about the UPGRADED SYSTEM

 

Thanks for letting me share

[BadPenny]

!.  Gold theft is planned to be left virtually intact.  BigGrim has no plans to make any radical changes here.

2.  You say you get posted on the VICTIM'S bounty board.... Now... the Soft PvP people will be the ones with gold, NOT the raw players... So, who are we stealing from?  Each other?  Again, this dog doesn't hunt.... 

3.  I've read your post dozens of times.  People are asking legitimate questions, and you only accuse them of detracting from YOUR THREAD.  

4.  I'm not trying to be negative here.  I don't advocate the removal of XP loss, but I am willing to accept what is best for all, not just a choice few.

5. FS has had some kind of ladder system since jump street.  The first was very active, but was populated by a chosen few, who eventually got together and manipulated the system, shutting the rest of us out.  Enter the "banded" ladder... It has failed... Most bands are near stagnant, with many having only members from the same guild on them... And who gets 1st place on those ladders?  That's right, they're not SUPPOSED to get anything, and if they do, it's the first one in the alphabet... Is this fair?  I think not.... This system is just the ladder, renamed to fit YOUR idea of what we need.... I reserve the right to disagree...  

6.  How can this NOT b e used to bully... A "soft" player gets baited into hitting a "raw" player... then we rip levels?  To me, that's unsportsmanlike and dishonorable, but mark my words, this WILL happen... Then, we're right back to where we are now, protesting the removal of XP loss again...

 

 

I'm sorry, but we need a new leveling system for PvP, not an old retribution system that still  takes our levels away...  I believe in risk and all that, but I don't believe in the wholesale slaughter of innocents... which is way too possible here...  

 

Just my 2 Pennys

 

#end rant

[mary4ever]

please explain how the  A "soft" player gets baited into hitting a "raw" player... then we rip levels?  To me, that's unsportsmanlike and dishonorable, but mark my words, this WILL happen... Then, we're right back to where we are now, protesting the removal of XP loss again... in the UPGRADED SYSTEM

 

the only thing a "soft" player would get from a "raw" player by attacking is GOLD !!!

 

are you saying that the "raw" player will be baiting the "soft" player by holding lots of gold on hand???????

[BadPenny]

stuff

 

soft hits soft => soft & raw BB  

in the soft system you will have 2 options to attack a player: "gold" hit or "pvp xp" hit

if you attack someone with a "gold" hit then you will be posted on the raw BB !!!

 

if you attack someone wit a "pvp xp" hit then you will be posted on the soft BB !!!

furthermore any gold loss from a "pvp xp" hit will be ZERO, only pvp xp will be lost !!! no gold !!!

 

I think this should against this: The biggest issue and exploit with the system being proposed by Doom is that people can go after gold with impunity.

meaning any attacks that take gold will result on the raw BB (to counter EXPLOIT / ABUSE)

PvP XP and gold theft DO NOT need to be separated!  We need a new system, NOT  a rehash of the old one

IT DOES NOT WORK!!!!!  WE ARE USING THE bounty SYSTEM TO BULLY OTHERS AND GET OUR WAY!!!!!!!!!

 

Not gold hits, not prestige hits.... hourly hits for no reason except to annoy and many levels taken on the board... For the regular PvPer, this is s.o.p.  However, for the standard "leveler" this is devastating....  These people feel bullied and are complaining... and the big guy has to fix things.  I don't really see this doing anything but exacerbating the problem... I'm sorry... I do understand your system... I just don't agree with it and I doubt I ever will.... 

 

 

This is the last I will say on the subject.  Please, take my comments with a grain of salt.  

 

  #end rant

[BadPenny]

please explain how the  A "soft" player gets baited into hitting a "raw" player... then we rip levels?  To me, that's unsportsmanlike and dishonorable, but mark my words, this WILL happen... Then, we're right back to where we are now, protesting the removal of XP loss again... in the UPGRADED SYSTEM

 

the only thing a "soft" player would get from a "raw" player by attacking is GOLD !!!

 

are you saying that the "raw" player will be baiting the "soft" player by holding lots of gold on hand???????

Let me break this down for you... I decide I don't like (let's call him "Harvey")... So, I stalk Harvey, and one day, I catch him on the back end of his hunt.  I strike, I get an MT and take all the gold (yeah, it's my dream scenario, I'm going to be awesome)... Now Harvey, he's retired and on a fixed income, and doesn't want to spend on tickets and a bounty prize... So Harvey hits me back... Now, me, I'm arrogant and obnoxious and think I own Erildath.... so, rather than just trade friendly licks (the sportsmanlike thing to do)  I start hourly hitting poor Harvey... eventually, he gets frustrated, annoyed and angry and swings back.... Being the ogre that I am... I post Harvey, and call in all my friends.  Harvey loses 5 levels AND his initial gold.... Now, why exactly is Harvey being punished?  For fighting back?  Yes... and this will happen, is happening ... Arrogance abounds in Erildath, it's unavoidable, some folks are born that way.... 

 

Does this answer your question??? I hope so... My arthritic fingers are beginning to ache from all this typing.... 

[mary4ever]

Let me break this down for you... I decide I don't like (let's call him "Harvey")... So, I stalk Harvey, and one day, I catch him on the back end of his hunt.  I strike, I get an MT and take all the gold (yeah, it's my dream scenario, I'm going to be awesome)... Now Harvey, he's retired and on a fixed income, and doesn't want to spend on tickets and a bounty prize... So Harvey hits me back... Now, me, I'm arrogant and obnoxious and think I own Erildath.... so, rather than just trade friendly licks (the sportsmanlike thing to do)  I start hourly hitting poor Harvey... eventually, he gets frustrated, annoyed and angry and swings back.... Being the ogre that I am... I post Harvey, and call in all my friends.  Harvey loses 5 levels AND his initial gold.... Now, why exactly is Harvey being punished?  For fighting back?  Yes... and this will happen, is happening ... Arrogance abounds in Erildath, it's unavoidable, some folks are born that way.... 

 

Does this answer your question??? I hope so... My arthritic fingers are beginning to ache from all this typing.... 

or it could be that:

• "Harvey" just bounties him and the attacker loses XP with 10 x 10 stam clear
• "Harvey" just bounties him and the attacker loses XP with 10 x 100 stam clear OR
• "Harvey" just bounties him and the attacker loses XP full 5 levels OR
• that his attacker does not bounty Harvey at all OR
• OR ........

these are all assumptions !!!!

 

but back to your example:

in theUPGRADED SYSTEM

 

if "Harvey" is a leveler then the possibility of him hitting back is very low knowing that there is a possibility that he would end up on the BB himself !!!!

IF "Harvey" is under constant attack then he would join the soft PvP system !!!  it would not matter if his attacker is on the raw or soft side, for gold hits you get posted on the raw BB losing XP !!!!

there the attacker can not take his XP, only his gold BUT "Harvey" will keep posting him and he will be losing XP !!!

 

I consider myself a pvper who can hold my own against any player BUT if I was constantly hitting a player hourly on the "soft" side then in the long run it would do me much more damage than to my target + I risk a ban from HCS  !!!!

I would be losing stamina, fsps, buffs, xp, levels

my target would be losing fsp

my target would have the possibility of the mighty DEFLECT, chance of winning an attack, ....

 

one more thing: the saying that pvpers do not care about their xp / levels is not true !!! pvpers do care !!! difference between a pvper and a leveler is that a leveler cares for his xp / levels more than a pvper !!!

 

 

NOW let me ask you a question too:

system is NO XP LOSS(DOOMs system)

Harvey is leveling, gets attacked and MT kicks in, he loses all his gold, he wants to punish his attacker but posting will only result in the attacker losing pvp xp which the attacker does not value at all !!!

@BadPenny: how can Harvey get his attacker punished for losing all his gold that he got after his long hunt?

 

 

do you really not see how fair the UPGRADED SYSTEM even after the explaination? 

[mary4ever]

most levelers would welcome the UPGRADED SYSTEM because they can choose the "soft" side and NEVER LOSE ANY XP as long as they do not do any gold hits !!! they can do "pvp xp" hits without any fear of losing any gold or XP !!!!

 

most pvpers would welcome the UPGRADED SYSTEM because they can choose the "raw" side and have their XP LOSS !!!  

 

both parties (levelers and pvpers) get what they want

Edited by mary4ever, 14 October 2014 - 22:15.

[Pardoux]

most levelers would welcome the UPGRADED SYSTEM because they can choose the "soft" side and NEVER LOSE ANY XP as long as they do not do any gold hits !!! they can do "pvp xp" hits without any fear of losing any gold or XP !!!!

 

most pvpers would welcome the UPGRADED SYSTEM because they can choose the "raw" side and have their XP LOSS !!!  

 

both parties (levelers and pvpers) get what they want

 

 

Seems, to me, that a lot of levellers seem to want something different.

 

Soft hits Soft = Soft BB

Soft hits Raw = Soft BB

Raw hits Raw = Raw BB

Raw hits Soft = Raw BB

 

(waits for the standard response .... )

[mary4ever]

Seems, to me, that a lot of levellers seem to want something different.

 

Soft hits Soft = Soft BB

Soft hits Raw = Soft BB

Raw hits Raw = Raw BB

Raw hits Soft = Raw BB

 

(waits for the standard response .... )

can you please explain in detail why you think that these 2 are fair:

• Soft hits Raw = Soft BB
• Soft hits Soft = Soft BB

and please do not say that a pvper does not care about his xp / levels, that is just not true !!!

[Pardoux]

can you please explain in detail why you think that these 2 are fair:

• Soft hits Raw = Soft BB
• Soft hits Soft = Soft BB

and please do not say that a pvper does not care about his xp / levels, that is just not true !!!

 

Well, obviously it IS true - because otherwise they'd not be tempted to PvP, knowing full well that there is a risk of losing said XP / Levels.

 

Of course, most players also know that some (NOT all) pvp'rs band together to soft clear each other and delevel anyone who dares to hit back. Level / XP is only valuable when it prevents gear being worn.

 

1. Soft hits Raw = Soft BB. This is a prevention of abuse. If soft hitting raw went to the raw bb, then levels and xp are lost. Soft hitting raw will only do gold theft (and how many pvp'rs keep gold on hand?) and earn some pvpxp. Why should they lose levels for that ? - Wanting them to lose levels is exactly the same as the scenario we have now.

2. Soft hits Soft = Soft BB. That's simple - a like for like "back and forth". Why should soft hitting soft involve regular xp loss. Both those players in that scenario have opted for the soft side to specifically AVOID losing xp.

 

Soft should be "policed" by Soft - Raw "policed" by Raw.

 

Anything else is just an attempt to try to maintain as big a percentage of the current PvP system (with XP loss) as possible - and that is, the whole crux of the matter.

 

TOO MANY PLAYERS ARE SICK OF XP LOSS - if that were not the case, the cows would not be doing anything about it ...

[BadPenny]

Well, obviously it IS true - because otherwise they'd not be tempted to PvP, knowing full well that there is a risk of losing said XP / Levels.

 

Of course, most players also know that some (NOT all) pvp'rs band together to soft clear each other and delevel anyone who dares to hit back. Level / XP is only valuable when it prevents gear being worn.

 

1. Soft hits Raw = Soft BB. This is a prevention of abuse. If soft hitting raw went to the raw bb, then levels and xp are lost. Soft hitting raw will only do gold theft (and how many pvp'rs keep gold on hand?) and earn some pvpxp. Why should they lose levels for that ? - Wanting them to lose levels is exactly the same as the scenario we have now.

2. Soft hits Soft = Soft BB. That's simple - a like for like "back and forth". Why should soft hitting soft involve regular xp loss. Both those players in that scenario have opted for the soft side to specifically AVOID losing xp.

 

Soft should be "policed" by Soft - Raw "policed" by Raw.

 

Anything else is just an attempt to try to maintain as big a percentage of the current PvP system (with XP loss) as possible - and that is, the whole crux of the matter.

 

TOO MANY PLAYERS ARE SICK OF XP LOSS - if that were not the case, the cows would not be doing anything about it ...

There's my point, right there...