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#1 ecolitan

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 15:14

There have been numerous threads lately that have turned into pure bitch sessions. That is not the intent of this thread. Instead I'd like to give my feedback on the game and would ask people to stay constructive in this thread. Numerous times we've been told that by being at the forefront of the game one of the costs is that we see things before they're in final form. Fine, one of the benefits should be that our feedback can help shape the game in a meaningful way. So my points:

1) Challenge vs. Drain. Many of us, myself included, welcome a more challenging game. So, challenges are welcome. But, there is a fine line between challenging and draining. The G-27 mission was well designed. It required some thought and ordering to the events you needed to complete and a tough Elite to kill. From all indications the level 83 mission is just a drain. It isn't that it requires a lot of work that is OUTSIDE leveling, it is that it requires a lot of extra leveling to complete. I can almost guarantee that many of the complaints about this mission would not be present if the extra energy was required in going to different realms to bring back things or going somewhere to kill some champs. Instead, it requires mind numbing killing above and beyond the 1500 mobs needed to level through that level. On this same point, given the construct of the game, creating a 2-hit mob is not challenging, it's draining. The Challenge should be in Elites that require mega-groups to kill, missions that require a drop from a tough creature to find etc.

2) Skills. Many of the class skills seem to have been "under" powered. I can speak mostly from a soldier's perspective. I look at the uber powerful Mental Strength that purists get and scream. All the skills I have access to that increase damage or attack seem great until it is found out that they conflict with each other as they require different weapon types to use. Focused is a ridiculous skill. Give up a round of combat through a miss to get 10% more damage? Called Shot gets me a 5% chance to double damage. At the expense of all my other skills that don't work with heavy weapons. I'm sure other classes have similar problems.

3) Ammo. Ok, I'll trust that stackable items will be released today. Even if it is ammo has become a major problem. If the paradigm has switched to 2-hit mobs ammo is even worse to use than it already was. 30 round ammo clips run out too fast and we don't have an auto-load feature. This means that we need to constantly check the combat screen and when we get low (if we don't want to risk death and waste energy) go to the data sheet screen to load a new clip. I think ammo clip sizes need to be at least doubled and an auto-reload hot-key needs to be made. Otherwise the few soldiers left will go the way of the dinosaurs. Purists face similar issues but are rewarded with Mental Strength which, imo, is the most powerful skill in the game.

4) Elite Gear. Elite Gear needs to be better. I understand not wanting to unbalance the game, but to have the level 80 Elite gear require as much work to create as it does and not be superior to Core items 5-6 levels later is ridiculous. Remember that you need to kill on the order of 50 level 80 Elites to create a set (4 drops per item, 1/10 drop rate with some failures). It isn't going to unbalance the game to have the Elite gear be the best gear available for over 10 levels. It will also reward those that make the sets by having them maintain a little bit of value. I proposed allowing Elite gear and Engineered gear to get a durability bonus. This would help in this regard. But, increasing the set bonuses to include roughly a 10 level bumpup (20 total points correct?) would also help. It's only going to make a difference in about 10 mobs of when repair is needed but that adds up.

5) Feedback. One of the things that has always made HCS games work has been the interaction between developers and players. Forum participation on a regular basis by those in authority creates a massive amount of goodwill. Information being transferred to players solves many problems before they arise. I know things have been busy and personal illnesses (etc) can slow things down. But, the black hole of no information is not good. Without the community participation the game becomes of much less interest. It would cost HCS very little to have updates or comments in the forums about when things will come out. For example, a post of "New Content is being developed. It will NOT be available until at least XX date". This might seem like a negative but would be a MAJOR benefit. Then, as the date approaches more information about release date would help. Some things might want to be sprung as surprises (new HK, special events etc) but content should not be this way. Knowing the release date/time of content (approximate works) can keep people from getting upset as it doesn't arrive or at using energy at the wrong time or whatever. Obviously feedback in suggestions and other threads is equally important.

6) Faction Structures. This might be more of a suggestion, but there is no game mechanics reason to limit the Amp Structures to 5 levels. Or to limit factions to 10 structures. I don't want to build my Amp Structures to level 25, but level 10-15 would be nice. It would help sink credits and allow factions that were well-organized to reduce the impact of 2-hit kills somewhat. A really simple fix to make leveling a bit less of a drain.

7) Artwork. I want to make sure this is constructive and not always negative (I hope people can see that this entire post isn't an attempt to be negative) so I'll comment on the artwork. I think the artwork of the game has been by far the most completely successful component. I don't have to like every set (I'd hate to be a purist and have to wear those clothes - ;) ), but the artwork has been well-themed and detailed fantastically so far. Congrats and keep it up.

8) Storyline. The storyline has been good. I think it's become a bit repetitive with no additions of "mega bosses" (HK) or artifacts. But, I appreciate the work in making the storyline work. I think some form of "invasion" would be of interest. Something needs to be done to break the linear structure the game has fallen into. BUT, the storyline and linking of realms to the storyline has been good.

Hopefully these can be taken as constructive, and maybe cows can appreciate that those of us at the front of the game have legitimate concerns with some things. If HCS has to pick 1 of these to work on first - please make it #5. HCS games are designed to basically be linear kill and move up games. The community nature of the games is developed from the top down. I would rather see content delayed 1-2 days to get great content and consistent interaction and feedback from cows. Releasing BG and Hoof from business and programming duties for a bit of time each day will slow down development a hair but... if that translates into more interaction in forums and game and better transfer of information I'll take it in a heartbeat.

#2 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 15:59

There have been numerous threads lately that have turned into pure bitch sessions. That is not the intent of this thread. Instead I'd like to give my feedback on the game and would ask people to stay constructive in this thread. Numerous times we've been told that by being at the forefront of the game one of the costs is that we see things before they're in final form. Fine, one of the benefits should be that our feedback can help shape the game in a meaningful way.

Especially since the game developers are barely half way through the content

I am always at a loss for how meaningless our comments are
HCS knows about our comments, I don't doubt that they are brought up in their staff meetings
But rarely do any of these comments make a difference in the game

Part of the issue is an understaffed HCS
There are at least 7 HCS games: Gothador, Solarfleet, Sigmastorm, Cowplay, Fallen Sword, Sigmastorm II, and Eldevin
But there are only 14 staff members listed on the HCS website (that's only 2 members per game!)

I have tried to address this problem here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3327&p=20796#p20796
but like nearly all of my recommendations, it left no lasting impression

#3 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 16:14

1) Challenge vs. Drain. Many of us, myself included, welcome a more challenging game. So, challenges are welcome. But, there is a fine line between challenging and draining. The G-27 mission was well designed. It required some thought and ordering to the events you needed to complete and a tough Elite to kill. From all indications the level 83 mission is just a drain. It isn't that it requires a lot of work that is OUTSIDE leveling, it is that it requires a lot of extra leveling to complete. I can almost guarantee that many of the complaints about this mission would not be present if the extra energy was required in going to different realms to bring back things or going somewhere to kill some champs. Instead, it requires mind numbing killing above and beyond the 1500 mobs needed to level through that level. On this same point, given the construct of the game, creating a 2-hit mob is not challenging, it's draining. The Challenge should be in Elites that require mega-groups to kill, missions that require a drop from a tough creature to find etc.


I agree.

A problem is that it is difficult to design challenges in this game...there are some ways to do it (many have even been suggested)
But it is a problem deep within the basic mechanics of the game

One way to make entities more challenging is to require you to design unique strategies for them
Unfortunately, this game is a 1-stat game...Damage
This is a fundamental problem of the energy system
I have not proffered my recommendations for this because I think, in this matter, SS2 is beyond help

There are many things I like about this game
But there are many more things that could be improved
I've largely given up on SS2 as a game and, unless there is some major restructuring, HCS as a company
I have stopped posting many of my ideas on the forums
Instead, I am collaborating on the development of a new game that is not affiliated with HCS and thus will not be named as per HCS rules

#4 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 16:27

2) Skills. Many of the class skills seem to have been "under" powered. I can speak mostly from a soldier's perspective. I look at the uber powerful Mental Strength that purists get and scream. All the skills I have access to that increase damage or attack seem great until it is found out that they conflict with each other as they require different weapon types to use. Focused is a ridiculous skill. Give up a round of combat through a miss to get 10% more damage? Called Shot gets me a 5% chance to double damage. At the expense of all my other skills that don't work with heavy weapons. I'm sure other classes have similar problems.


I will respond to this as a Faction founder who has seen many members "convert" to Purism
Mental Strength is THE class determinant
Class Skills: Excepting Mental Strength, all class skills are worthless
Class Items: Core items are just as good and do not waste skill points

Is Mental Strength overpowered? Yes.
Some players have already talked about experiencing 2-hitting...and presumably 3-hitting is just around the corner
As a Purist with Mental Strength, this doesn't affect me
All I care about is maximizing my damage (attack seems to fall into place on its own)
If I don't 1-hit, my mental shield saves me
If I don't 2-hit, my mental shield saves me
If I don't 3-hit, my mental shield saves me but I need to recast the skill
If I don't 4-hit, I die....guess how often this happens....

#5 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 16:34

3) Ammo. Ok, I'll trust that stackable items will be released today. Even if it is ammo has become a major problem. If the paradigm has switched to 2-hit mobs ammo is even worse to use than it already was. 30 round ammo clips run out too fast and we don't have an auto-load feature. This means that we need to constantly check the combat screen and when we get low (if we don't want to risk death and waste energy) go to the data sheet screen to load a new clip. I think ammo clip sizes need to be at least doubled and an auto-reload hot-key needs to be made. Otherwise the few soldiers left will go the way of the dinosaurs. Purists face similar issues but are rewarded with Mental Strength which, imo, is the most powerful skill in the game.


First of all, true Purists do not use ammo weaponry
About every 15 levels I change my weapon to the next overpowered, non-ammo, core weapon

There is no reason for me to waste credits, inventory, and energy to risk running out of ammo and dying

There should be an advantage to using ammo, but right now, there are only disadvantages

#6 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 16:41

4) Elite Gear. Elite Gear needs to be better. I understand not wanting to unbalance the game, but to have the level 80 Elite gear require as much work to create as it does and not be superior to Core items 5-6 levels later is ridiculous. Remember that you need to kill on the order of 50 level 80 Elites to create a set (4 drops per item, 1/10 drop rate with some failures). It isn't going to unbalance the game to have the Elite gear be the best gear available for over 10 levels. It will also reward those that make the sets by having them maintain a little bit of value. I proposed allowing Elite gear and Engineered gear to get a durability bonus. This would help in this regard. But, increasing the set bonuses to include roughly a 10 level bumpup (20 total points correct?) would also help. It's only going to make a difference in about 10 mobs of when repair is needed but that adds up.


Ah, another aspect that should confer an advantage, but only confers disadvantages

I used to use Elite gear, but it was eating up too many of my skills points so I reset my skills and only use core items
Am I disadvantaged because of this? Nope.
Because the core items are just as good and do not waste skill points

I don't really want to comment on how to improve the elite gear because then I will have to start wasting those skill points again
But this is a very obvious flaw and some bonuses should be given to Elite items
(One might also want to seriously reexamine how the engineering bonuses are handled)

#7 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 16:51

5) Feedback. One of the things that has always made HCS games work has been the interaction between developers and players. Forum participation on a regular basis by those in authority creates a massive amount of goodwill. Information being transferred to players solves many problems before they arise. I know things have been busy and personal illnesses (etc) can slow things down. But, the black hole of no information is not good. Without the community participation the game becomes of much less interest. It would cost HCS very little to have updates or comments in the forums about when things will come out. For example, a post of "New Content is being developed. It will NOT be available until at least XX date". This might seem like a negative but would be a MAJOR benefit. Then, as the date approaches more information about release date would help. Some things might want to be sprung as surprises (new HK, special events etc) but content should not be this way. Knowing the release date/time of content (approximate works) can keep people from getting upset as it doesn't arrive or at using energy at the wrong time or whatever. Obviously feedback in suggestions and other threads is equally important.


Not much to add here. There is a ever dwindling SS2 community...the lack of feedback on the forum is not the only cause but it does gives players the impression, real or not, that HCS doesn't really care

Again, I think under staffing is a major part of this
I think the lack of forum organization is another part (both topic structure and the moderators)
do we have moderators? I haven't seen that tree in ages

I've previously commented on this lack of feedback problem extensively in the forum so I encourage you to review those posts....if you can find them...I think there are a few good ones are on the Trading Hub destruction thread

#8 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 17:10

6) Faction Structures. This might be more of a suggestion, but there is no game mechanics reason to limit the Amp Structures to 5 levels. Or to limit factions to 10 structures. I don't want to build my Amp Structures to level 25, but level 10-15 would be nice. It would help sink credits and allow factions that were well-organized to reduce the impact of 2-hit kills somewhat. A really simple fix to make leveling a bit less of a drain.

There needs to be some limit placed on faction structures so that the ultra rich factions do not have an overpowering advantage
But that said...we are FAR from reaching that point

In my Faction, I only build the structures that we need so the 12 structure limit has not been a problem for me yet
But there is not reason why the "McFactions" should have to chose particular amp structures over others
If they want to waste the credits, let them

The key to structures is that they provide convenience at a cost
If the benefit of a structure out weighs the cost...we have a big problem, it's called a credit faucet
But a structure makes the game more enjoyable without granting a credit profit...we have a viable credit sink

..without going into the ridiculous "fairness" issue and how HCS determines entity difficulty...
Structures should be optional game enhancements
Do I really need +4 damage? No, but it might let me kill more monsters before needed to repair my items

In truth, the Weapons Expert is underpowered
What does this structure do? +2 damage per level
This is comparable to the evolution point damage in that it is not affected by item durability
In other words, this structure allows me to hunt longer before repairing my items
This is a convenience because repairing is annoying
And it sinks more credits because the lower your durability, the more your repairs cost
(It also sinks credits with the increased upkeep)

+4 (maxed at level 2) is very weak
+10 (maxed at level 5) is getting closer

#9 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 17:24

7) Artwork. I want to make sure this is constructive and not always negative (I hope people can see that this entire post isn't an attempt to be negative) so I'll comment on the artwork. I think the artwork of the game has been by far the most completely successful component. I don't have to like every set (I'd hate to be a purist and have to wear those clothes - ;) ), but the artwork has been well-themed and detailed fantastically so far. Congrats and keep it up.


I don't have any comments on the artwork, other than it's consistently great

I do want to clarify what it means to be constructive though

positive/negative has no bearing on this
there is plenty of negative feedback on the forum that is not constructive (this is not very helpful)
there is also plenty of positive feedback on the forum that is not constructive (this is also not very helpful)

Constructive feedback goes beyond an opinion (positive or negative) to offer suggestions or comments that help develop the game

I think the artwork of the game has been by far the most completely successful component. I don't have to like every set (I'd hate to be a purist and have to wear those clothes - ;) ),


This is NOT constructive feedback

but the artwork has been well-themed and detailed fantastically so far. Congrats and keep it up.

This IS constructive feedback because it acknowledges a specific aspect of the artwork that should remain a focus
Example of "well-themed" is that the elite sets should match the environment
(I'm not completely up-to-date on the elite sets but I vaguely recall the elites sets from the factory having a more industrious feel to them)
I think that is great and I would like to see the artwork for more items matching the environment

#10 ss_jsqualls

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 17:39

4) Elite Gear. Elite Gear needs to be better. I understand not wanting to unbalance the game, but to have the level 80 Elite gear require as much work to create as it does and not be superior to Core items 5-6 levels later is ridiculous. Remember that you need to kill on the order of 50 level 80 Elites to create a set (4 drops per item, 1/10 drop rate with some failures). It isn't going to unbalance the game to have the Elite gear be the best gear available for over 10 levels. It will also reward those that make the sets by having them maintain a little bit of value. I proposed allowing Elite gear and Engineered gear to get a durability bonus. This would help in this regard. But, increasing the set bonuses to include roughly a 10 level bumpup (20 total points correct?) would also help. It's only going to make a difference in about 10 mobs of when repair is needed but that adds up.



There is no way I would have wasted so much time and FC on the level 80 set, if I had known the "rare"/common gear would catch up to it so quickly. My elite set is only slightly better than the rare gear just a few levels later. The only advantage the elite set has is the slightly lower repair cost, because it is a few levels lower. I am seriously thinking about trying to sell it now, to at least get some FC back.

#11 ss_aranka

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 17:42

8) Storyline. The storyline has been good. I think it's become a bit repetitive with no additions of "mega bosses" (HK) or artifacts. But, I appreciate the work in making the storyline work. I think some form of "invasion" would be of interest. Something needs to be done to break the linear structure the game has fallen into. BUT, the storyline and linking of realms to the storyline has been good.


Some of this is again limited by the simplicity of this game
(I don't see us ever departing from a strict non-linear structure in this game)

Some of this is again limited by staff

But if compare the storyline in this game to the lack of a storyline in Fallen Sword....
I'm very pleased with the improvement
I loved the "Money from the Mines" missions when we had to go back to the City
I don't know what happened to these types of story elements, but I wish we would see more of them

Another improvement would be to better tie in the areas to the story
We see some of this, but it's not great
I remember way back to the "Delivery Note" Mission

It's a dangerous world, watch your Health, Item Durability and Bullets. Luck to you Unit.'

I was expecting the desert areas that followed to be very challenging
and then when I got to the City, I thought "oh good, I finally made it out of that dangerous desert area, I wonder what new challenges await me in this city"
But it was just more desert after the city

Another example is the "Money from the Mines" mission when the swindler tells you that you need a glow torch to advance to the next area because it's really dark
But when I got there, I either made one heck of a glow torch that magically illuminated the entire area...or that swindler was full of...Taulite
That area, and all of the deep cave areas could have benefited from reduced visibility

#12 kingjadie

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 18:21

4) Elite Gear. Elite Gear needs to be better. I understand not wanting to unbalance the game, but to have the level 80 Elite gear require as much work to create as it does and not be superior to Core items 5-6 levels later is ridiculous. Remember that you need to kill on the order of 50 level 80 Elites to create a set (4 drops per item, 1/10 drop rate with some failures). It isn't going to unbalance the game to have the Elite gear be the best gear available for over 10 levels. It will also reward those that make the sets by having them maintain a little bit of value. I proposed allowing Elite gear and Engineered gear to get a durability bonus. This would help in this regard. But, increasing the set bonuses to include roughly a 10 level bumpup (20 total points correct?) would also help. It's only going to make a difference in about 10 mobs of when repair is needed but that adds up.



tell me about it... elite gear needs revamped.. at the very least give more set bonus.. a +6 or 7 .. means nothing. you spend endless amounts of energy to only "look" tough,
the set should reflect the time and effort into it. making it actually "Elite"!

i rather enjoy killing elites. i spend thousands of energy everyday hunting them.. i try not to turn a profit , but rather maintain a balance, and donate faction sets.
though, as im seeing, i shouldnt be wasting it at all and just buying common items. if the sets arent really elite, but rather a facade, a plaster molding of a battle suit. painted to resemble something fancy and battle Worthy.


i know if you put more effort into the stats as you do the art work, more will flock too them, or at least try to hunt them. let them stay in the game for a bit. not being worthless after 4 levels. give them a way to add to them , maybe combine each elite set that comes out with the previous set, and add even more flavor to it.. something.. please !

a ever changing mutated set would be awesome come to think of it. :)))

#13 ss_barmuka

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:45

personally the elite sets are not very elite. for example we should be seeing bigger bonuses on these sets along with more then just 3 different enhancements being randomly put on the sets. it seems at lvl 90 they decided that mutants should have less defense then had prior and about the same damage FE'd. we should be getting some sort of elite hunter reward for using the set /cough maybe a bit bonus on xp per kill like in that other game. also i would like to see since we dont have the skill in this game at least maybe a credit finder enhancement. getting the same 47-50 credits per kill for over 40 lvls while repair costs go up every level i have seen my credits per hunt going down if i use the high lvl sets.
and to be able to put together a core set 1 lvl lower or equal to elite sets and them being about the same stats is garbage.

please make elite sets elite. stop making these sets core+ piddly stats. or at least at this point in the game put all 4 enhancements on these new sets. this would help with the hunting a bit.

#14 centurion

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 14:28

elite set was supposed to be very rare and it was to be its own reward. bragging right. most were supposed to use core. you got spoiled with easy availability. so, elite sets are fine as is.

#15 ss_loudog

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 20:32

elite gear needs revamped.. at the very least give more set bonus.. a +6 or 7 .. means nothing. you spend endless amounts of energy to only "look" tough,
the set should reflect the time and effort into it. making it actually "Elite"!


I will say it again. Elite sets aren't so elite atm! They do look cool tho. Thx Zaelin and ZORN...

Can you make them as useful as they look please.

#16 ss_aranka

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 12:13

5) Feedback.




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