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Offical Suggestion : Kick up the fire, Hell-Forge is burning


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Poll: What do you think about the proposed Hell-Forge changes? (95 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think about the proposed Hell-Forge changes?

  1. Don't change it, I like the Hell-Forge as it is! (11 votes [2.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.81%

  2. Sounds good but needs some work! (68 votes [17.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.35%

  3. I like the new idea's I would use the Hell-Forge way more (313 votes [79.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 79.85%

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#61 fs_krypkill

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:41

Although I do think the cost for high-level items are a bit steep as proposed at the moment, something fairly drastic does need to be done to fix the gold economy.

It's not just a case of working out how long it would take you to earn the gold we really need to be pulling gold out from the game, in other words making people spend faster than they can earn, if any improvements are to be made.

5) IMPORTANT QUESTION! - Would the % change on an item be based on it's current stat values (like buffs are) or would they be based on the items base values (before crafting)???


Skim read the couple of pages after this point, and didn't see anyone bring this up, except to say "of course it should be base stats".

Working forging from base stats will make some items utterly irrelevant to forge.

The only example I have on me (there are a few others) is the Ankon Armour, an admittedly slightly rubbish level 138 item.

Base stats: 10def, 10 armour

After crafting the stats look considerably better. But who is going to forge a level 138 item for a %age of 20 stat points?

I think a set number of bonus points for each level would be the only way to keep forging and crafting seperate.

#62 Mojawk

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 13:15

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, I think the main issues with this change would be

1) Getting the gold cost correct (it will become broken if its an exponential function)

2) Getting the new forge upgrades to work just as well on a item with 1 or 2 stat bonuses as one with 7 or 8.

3) Ensuring the new system compliments crafting so that it doesn't become obsolete.

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#63 fs_fighterdan

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 14:04

:D I LOVE this idea!! :)

#64 fs_matto

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 14:04

Once again, Ravana, you miss my point simply to lecture me on my grammatical errors and bash higher lvl players. I'm done trying to express my opinion. It seems you'd rather argue with me about mundane details then actually consider my reasoning for my opinions. That's fine, though I would have hoped that at your age (40, is it?) you'd act more mature than most of the pre-teen players on here.

On that note, thanks to all the players that sent me PMs on this topic agreeing with me. Even though you didn't post in here (and I completely understand why) the fact that you can look past yourselves and understand someone elses point of view, regardless of your current lvl, is incredible.


And Radneto, sounds like you're on top of it. Great! With consideration given those 3 points you just mentioned, this system could be much more successful to all. Thanks a lot!

#65 fs_joeydavis

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 15:48

i like the new forgeing thing i vote go ahead sooner the better thanks

#66 fs_siredwen

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 15:52

[b] But will you have to use the first level of forgeing before you can use the others sence it is for 2 Fallen sword point or can you choose what level you want. Other then that it is way better then it is know.[/b]

#67 fs_krypkill

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 15:54

[b] But will you have to use the fist level of forgeing before you can use the others sence it is for 2 Fallen sword point or can you choose what level you want. Other then that it is way better then it is know.[/b]


Posting for the vision impaired, very thoughtful :lol:

It seems that the way the idea is proposed at present, you will have to pay for the first level before you can go on to the second, and the second before the third, and so on.

But 2fsp is far more achievable than ten.

#68 fs_leannesara

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 15:55

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, I think the main issues with this change would be

1) Getting the gold cost correct (it will become broken if its an exponential function)

2) Getting the new forge upgrades to work just as well on a item with 1 or 2 stat bonuses as one with 7 or 8.

3) Ensuring the new system compliments crafting so that it doesn't become obsolete.


HUGs Joo

Thanks for listening :D

#69 fs_phoenician

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 17:13

Finally some reasonable use for those cold coins, hellforging has been total waste of FSP:s, I wonder people hellforging something like defender eribor set, which can be really used only for levels 13-14...

#70 fs_greybeard

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 17:19

I see everybody jumping at the easy solution. Make the game easier for me. Why play it at all? If there is no challenge left, where is the point? It becomes just a waste of time.

Agreed, the current Hellforging is not working, but what it needs is tweaking, not to be turned upside down.

The argument about Hellforging nor being worth it a higher lvls, does not hold water, except for 2 reason, one of which is applicable to low lvls too.
1. The price is too steep. Counts for high and low.
2. At higher lvls, everyone goes for specialized items with only 1-3 stats.

+6 to all stats is actually worth more at high lvls than at low. On an item with 4 stats it is a total of 20 stat points = 1.2 extra lvl to your character. Since lvl’ing is slower at high lvls, the value for money is better. The problem with forging as it is now is that only items with many stats, preferably 5, are worth forging. This is increasing at high lvls, since more items are specialized. At least the popular ones. I agree that forging as it is needs tweaking, but I suggest making it a fixed number for each forging lvl. E.g. 4-5 points per item per forge lvl and 8-10 on the last forge. Points could be divided proportionally on the stats or added to one particular stat for each lvl, randomly, or chosen by player. Maybe break the forging into more lvls and giving only 1 stat per lvl.

Another option would be to change forging all together and make it work on lvl restrictions instead. Giving the option to wear a fully forged lvl 35 Item at lvl 30 or 29 with the current last forge lvl bonus.

The general rule in the game is that you gain a possible extra 20 stat points per lvl. That is true for high and low. With the above mentioned tweak, you’d gain 1.2-1.5 lvl per item forged, just as you do now with items having 4-5 stats. That is 10.6-13.5 lvl with a fully forged gear. Don’t tell me it is not desirable enough. Though not worth 50 fsp. So we’re back to the first point.

Personally, I don’t care whether the price is in fsp or gold. It is only a matter of exchange rates. But it will be way easier to make prices lvl dependent with gold. As for the use as a gold sink, I think that will be temporary. No one will want to pay the full forging price extra compared to a standard item, skipping the fun of doing the crafting themselves, as a result the forged items, will be cheaper to buy than to make, and few will make new. Just as it is today. With the exception of the highest lvls, of course, as they can’t buy from others.

[quote]Radneto
At level 1 forging would now cost 2 FSP.
At level 2 it would be say 200 gold multiplied by item level. (so 20000 gold for a level 100 item)
At level 3 it would be say 400 gold multiplied by item level. (40000)
At level 4 it would be say 800 gold multiplied by item level. (80000)
At level 5 it would be say 1600 gold multiplied by item level. (160000)[/quote]

With the exponential increase in price per crafting lvl, it will be a lot less desirable to forge the last lvl, as opposed to way it works now, where you actually get a bonus for completing the crafting. Considering keeping it the old way, with just the player lvl adjustments.

[quote]Now for actually item bonuses, before the last changes to the Hell-forge it worked on a % of the each individual item stat. I dont remember the actual values but I do remember it being game breaking. I think a better way would be to work out a percentage based on the item level, and add the bonuses this way, I do realise +5 to all stats and level 150+ doesn't quite cut it. Ive been messing around with some maths and stuff, don't have anything concrete yet for this second part. However I'm something along the lines of a % against the item level to all stats. For example each level would be 2% against all item stats, so for the above level 100 item, this would apply a bonus of 4 to all relevenat stats. So if maximum upgrades were purchased at level 100 you would achieve 20 to all relevenat stats.[/quote]

I wonder what you did to the math when you messed with it? Since item stats are lvl dependent, it would not make much of a difference which one is used as base. At least not regarding items with many stats. Meaning that if it was game breaking before, it will be so again, albeit to a slightly lesser degree.

With my current (Defensive) setup a full forging on all items would give me 570 stat points > 28 lvls increase. And that is for a specialized setup. It could easily be more. I think that is rather excessive.

[quote]Ravana
(2) The gold costs seem a little low—at least where low-level items are concerned. L1 Hell Forging costs 2 FSP... but if you're talking, say, a L10 item, the second level will only cost 2k gold... this would be "fairer" to lower-level players, but I'm not sure it's "balanced." Perhaps it should be a combined FSP and gold cost at each level... say, 1 FSP and 100x level gold for L1, 2 FSP and 200x gold for L2, 3 FSP and 400x gold at L3, etc.? The FSP cost, if used, should only go up by one per level, rather than doubling as the gold cost does. [/quote]

Or make it a combination of a base price and and lvl dependent price.

[quote](3) I like the idea of a percentage bonus rather than a straight +1 bonus... though as proposed, it might be a bit excessive: +20 to all stats on a L100 item? That will be a massive increase on items that have eight or nine stats. Remember that one of the protests against Hell Forging is that it's possible to achieve greater benefits with fewer FSP through Crafting, in many cases... this would create the reverse situation. (I don't mind, but some people will protest....)[/quote]

Excessive indeed.


[quote]DeMoNyO
gold will be much more valuable = decrease in FSP prices[/quote]


Will it now? What do you think will happen when the forged items go to the AH?

[quote]Ravana
Some items receive massive bonuses for Crafting... Darklore Rune, Hammer of the Deep, etc.[/quote]

Not much bonus on the Darklore Rune :)

[quote]TheLastDJ
Making gold in the AH is a lot easier than making FSP.[/quote]

No way! Perhaps if you only look on percentages, but there are not many options to make 25-30K on one trade.

[quote]Juventino7
I really like the idea, but the gold amount will be too much and that for only 1 item ... about half a million gold for 1 items. This should be a little lower, then i would go for it.[/quote]

[quote]Delux906
I would like to point out that I think the projected costs may be a little high. By the figures on the first page, a level 100 piece of gear would cost a total of 2fsp and 300,000 Gold to fully forge. Thats a lot of gold for 20 to each stat on that piece of gear. For a level 180 piece of gear it would cost 2 fsp and 540,000 Gold to gain +36 to each stat on the item. This is helpful as far as the amount of stats you gain, but is it worth the cost. If the prices stay the same as proposed I know that I will treat the Hell Forge as I always have, and not use it much. Taper the cost calculation a little bit, then you will have a ton of people using it to upgrade their equipment. So when you are looking at this proposal, calculate how much it would cost you to forge a item that you have, then ask your self if you would actually do it for that price. lets make sure that it is effective when it is implemented[/quote]

Price now is 50 fsp per item = 1.25-1.5M. A considerable reduction, I’d think. Even with the unforging gone, the item would still be worth a lot more when sold. And as the suggestion goes, for an enormous bonus.

[quote]Thandius
Actually, I don't think FSP should be refunded for the simple fact that many items have changed hands since they were hellforged - who do you refund now the current owner or the original one? There is no fair solution for this.[/quote]

The current owner got the item in good faith, whether by bying or forging.

[quote]Matto
3) Easy one, there should be the ability to do all 5 lvls of forging in 1 click. Would save time with slow refreshing. Just charge the total for all 5 forging lvls in 1 click. Easy. [/quote]

All in favor of saving clicks :-)


[quote]5) IMPORTANT QUESTION! - Would the % change on an item be based on it's current stat values (like buffs are) or would they be based on the items base values (before crafting)??? [/quote]

Neither! As the suggestion goes, it would be basede on lvl, not stats.

[quote]Also, on a side note, I think that this will surely bring down the prices of fsps seeing as how the second I read this idea, my first thought (and I've never had this thought as long as I've been playing FS) was, man, I might have to sell some fsps... [/quote]

Temporarily, perhaps. But as gold is created ingame and fsp are not, the price will go up again. Besides, what do you think the currency will be when the item is sold?

#71 fs_ravana

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 17:21

Once again, Ravana, you miss my point simply to lecture me on my grammatical errors and bash higher lvl players. I'm done trying to express my opinion. It seems you'd rather argue with me about mundane details then actually consider my reasoning for my opinions. That's fine, though I would have hoped that at your age (40, is it?) you'd act more mature than most of the pre-teen players on here.


And once again you ignore what I actually said, simply to insult me and try to distract people from the reasoning for my opinions with your distortions and straw man attacks... such as, for instance, suggesting that there was anything about my previous post that was "immature." But it's certainly not worth my time to point out in detail how much of my last post was not concerned with your grammatical errors, or that I was in no way bashing higher-level players. Since you have clearly decided to see only what you want to, however, you are correct at least in that there is no more purpose to be served in this conversation.

#72 Cathbadh

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 17:26

Great idea from the devs I haven't used the Hellforge in a very long time but this looks encouraging.

Ravana, your wasting your breath on Matto, he enjoys whining... and he's good at it... :lol:

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#73 fs_ravana

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 17:33

Ravana
(2) The gold costs seem a little low—at least where low-level items are concerned. L1 Hell Forging costs 2 FSP... but if you're talking, say, a L10 item, the second level will only cost 2k gold... this would be "fairer" to lower-level players, but I'm not sure it's "balanced." Perhaps it should be a combined FSP and gold cost at each level... say, 1 FSP and 100x level gold for L1, 2 FSP and 200x gold for L2, 3 FSP and 400x gold at L3, etc.? The FSP cost, if used, should only go up by one per level, rather than doubling as the gold cost does.


Or make it a combination of a base price and and lvl dependent price.


Which, if it helped ease off the price at higher levels, would help reduce some of the objections that others have raised to it. Not a bad idea. (Even if I don't think it necessary... I'm glad there's somebody who agrees with me on that—or at least seems to. :wink: )


Ravana
Some items receive massive bonuses for Crafting... Darklore Rune, Hammer of the Deep, etc.


Not much bonus on the Darklore Rune :)


Aaah... you're right. I forgot how high the damage on that thing was even when not Crafted. D'oh!

#74 fs_gamer0

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 17:45

At level 1 forging would now cost 100 gold multiplied by item level. (10000 gold for a level 100 item) or 1 FSP.
At level 2 it would be say 200 gold multiplied by item level. (so 20000 gold for a level 100 item) or 2 FSP
At level 3 it would be say 400 gold multiplied by item level. (40000) or 3 FSP
At level 4 it would be say 800 gold multiplied by item level. (80000) or 4 FSP
At level 5 it would be say 1600 gold multiplied by item level. (160000) or 5 FSP


i like this idea :D

#75 Mojawk

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 18:14

With the exponential increase in price per crafting lvl, it will be a lot less desirable to forge the last lvl, as opposed to way it works now, where you actually get a bonus for completing the crafting. Considering keeping it the old way, with just the player lvl adjustments.


I feel this is quite important point, which will also be considered.

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#76 fs_narex

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 18:15

It sounds good, but tbh at my level a +5% bonus isn't enough to spend 2 FSP + 500K gold per item. With my Xelphus sword, I'd gain +10 attack and +8 daamge (if you round up). That's not worth the cost of 2 FSP and a potential 20 more FSP.

#77 fs_thelastdj

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 18:27

Could there also be an option to do it completely with FSP? If it requires that much gold... FSP prices might even go up, so that it's basically less costly for the sellers to forge an item.

The hardest part of making this work would be making it worthy for all levels.

#78 Prezze

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 18:34

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, I think the main issues with this change would be

1) Getting the gold cost correct (it will become broken if its an exponential function)

2) Getting the new forge upgrades to work just as well on a item with 1 or 2 stat bonuses as one with 7 or 8.

3) Ensuring the new system compliments crafting so that it doesn't become obsolete.


If those 3 things are being solved properly I think the hellforge will drain alot of gold out of the game ...
and then I'll like the idea of the hellforge as it's proposed now I don't see any use of hellforging an item :)

#79 fs_dreadwulf

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 20:12

http://forum.fallens... ... =hellforge

lol I posted the above thread on May 12th suggesting an overhaul of hellforging at which time I had one reply and hardly any views. And now everything comes full circle. I support the proposed changes.8)

#80 fs_deemer

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 20:35

great idea!!! "Yes" from me!!


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