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Replacement defensive skills


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Poll: Do you like it? (21 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you like it?

  1. yea (23 votes [92.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 92.00%

  2. nay (2 votes [8.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

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#1 fs_coyotik

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 10:12

The current defensive skills are, ehm, next to useless. Namely, Fortify, Rock Skin and Evade... How many people actually have significant number of levelup points in armor and defense to start with? I'd guess that very few... therefore it's not bloody likely that they'd have any good use for those skills.

So, I would propose the following reform to the defensive skills section:

Level 1:

Vigor - change the skill to add HPs equivalent to a percentage of the character's LEVEL. I.e. 1% per skill point, so a level 100 character would get up to 135 HP (fury shrine, max points himself)

Level 25:

Evade: similar to Vigor, but affecting defense and being weaker - i.e. 0.05%*hero_level bonus to defense per skill point.

Rockskin: the same, armor

Level 75: Absorb and enchant armor as they are now.

Level 150: Get rid of aura of protection, replace with two new skills

Skill Name: Parry - when opponent misses in his attack, cause some damage to him... probably a percentage of his own damage roll.

Skill Name: Crown of thorns - counterpart for Parry. If the attack scores only 1 damage, part of the absorbed damage is inflicted upon the attacker.

#2 fs_phool

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 10:44

Nice work coyotik!

It would be great to have a decent bunch of defensive skills like these rather than the useless lot we currently have.

Would be great if some of these were implemented.

#3 EJames2100

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 10:55

Definitly, I hate the ones that are they now, useless to me and probably evevryone

#4 fs_gerbilman

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 11:16

yep, they definately need a rethink, the only defensive skills that i know get used alot are EA (Enchanted Armor) and lately Deflect, everything else is useless

#5 fs_coyotik

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 11:43

Hey mate cut down on the smilies, they are EVIL...

Anyway, there's the underlying problem of a combat system that sucks. I'm not really sure what would be a good way out of this mess, but it has to be something that makes BOTH armor and defense important.

I would suggest, for a start, to make HP a level-dependant value. Most RPG games provide HP and MP growth with level - and it's for a good reason :), it just works.

Then, we would have 4 primary attributes to focus at, with something along the following lines:

attack vs. defense would determine probability of i.e. fumble, normal hit, piercing strike and critical hit.

Let's have a basic 2% rate for a fumble and a critical. Now, the attack ratio and the defense ratio would determine the probability of the hit - and inside the hitzone, it could always be something like 60% normal hit, 30% good hit (piercing) and 10% critical...

The only thing left would be to decide how to determine the basic hit probability - and here I would vote for ratio rather than difference.

Let's say that if att = def, the hit ratio is 50% and if att = 2*def, the hit ratio is 100%, linear in between. (Numbers to be tweaked, fumble and critical applied at i.e. 2% no matter what this result is).

And to include armor in here as well, I think that it should work as a damage absorbtion factor... so the armor would never stop X points of damage, but instead be able to absorb X% of the damage only.

The translation between absolute points and the absorption percentage should be fairly simple - just divide the absolute points by character level and some magic number...

The net effect of such a combat system would be to make players adapt themselves to the particular creeps they're meeting. It kind of works the same way today - if the creep gives big kicks, just ramp up on defense to avoid them, if it just nags but always hits, go for the big armor - but we simply need a system that will have much higher thresholds... i.e. never allow the damage absorbtion to go over, say, 90%, and perhaps similar limitations on the dodging...

But this would require both a lot of careful design and testing, and a shedload of work when implementing this, because all the creeps would need to be redesigned... so it's not going to happen and we just have to live with the fact that although the game has 5 levelup attributes, 3 of them are to be ignored :)

#6 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 14:03

Some great ideas there coyotik, I especially like the work on the 'theoretical' way that combat should work. I don't think it will ever be implemented either but it would be nice.
Anyway, I doubt they will replace Aura of Protection with another skill, let alone 2, but even if they changed it to work like Vigor and Evade and Rockskin rolled into one (and functioning as you described them) it would be a half decent buff, just a tad redundant.

#7 fs_onemember

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 17:26

Maybe need little work, but yes. We need some good defence buffs :)

#8 fs_phool

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 21:54

bump

#9 fs_baine

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 22:55

I agree that 50% of the defensive skills are useless...

Great Vigor, Fortify, Evade, Rock Skin, Aura of Protection...
All of these skills are just plain bad because nobody really puts points into those stats.

Now the other 5 defensive skills I can actually see myself using.

#10 fs_coyotik

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 08:56

Bumpity bump, we need more votes, opinions and fresh ideas for defensive skills.

#11 KaSSS

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 12:51

Any improvements to defensive buffs, u have my vote :D

#12 fs_dolfie

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 13:00

yes yes yes i fully agree with coyotik :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: this skill which he suggest brings new features in game :) it will bee cool :) i hope HCS implemented it :)

rock skin and fortify are really useles in current settings :D most people has 1 point in defence and 1 in armor :)

Hmmm…
Something wrong with defence?
(watch my profile)

#13 fs_coyotik

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 14:19

Of course not... but defense is useless as base attribute if you want to stay competitive at higher levels. Specifically, any point wasted outside attack and damage (in proper ratio) will limit the possibility for 1hit kills on levels 140+

#14 fs_delux906

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 14:30

Great work Coyotik

#15 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 15:06

Of course not... but defense is useless as base attribute if you want to stay competitive at higher levels. Specifically, any point wasted outside attack and damage (in proper ratio) will limit the possibility for 1hit kills on levels 140+


Too true.
Since most people get their defense from wearing defensive gear, I think any worthwhile buff that increases defense would have to be equipment-based like EA and EW...now of course if you are wearing a weapon or armor that increases defense by a lot, then EW and EA function as defensive buffs, but this application of those skills is rarely used (at least I've not seen it used).

I posted on another topic that to counteract the power of DC in PvP we could have a skill that lowers the opponent's attack as a percentage of the total attack stat. I think this would be a good replacement for Evade, and it does count as a defensive buff.

After re-reading your initial post, I had one problem with Parry - it's not what I would expect or like in a defensive buff. You have a chance to counterattack or return a percentage of the attacker's damage if he misses, but the skill doesn't do anything to actually make the opponent miss...I would be more interested in a defensive buff that actually makes the opponent miss. Since the skill name is Parry it implies you are using your weapon to block the incoming attack, so maybe the mechanic could work based on your attack stat (which is certainly more invested in than defense) vs. the attack stat of your opponent, such that if your attack is higher, better chance of parrying.

#16 KaSSS

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 15:13

but then with parry, u'd have to calculate a good defense-to-attack ratio, and how would that work against oponents defense.
And would a parry be based on ur attack or defense, since it (in theory) relies on weapon

#17 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 15:20

but then with parry, u'd have to calculate a good defense-to-attack ratio, and how would that work against oponents defense.
And would a parry be based on ur attack or defense, since it (in theory) relies on weapon


Not really, I was thinking more along the lines of having Parry grant a base %chance per skill point to block the opponent's attack, and on top of that you would gain a further bonus to the %chance based on how good your attack is compared to their attack. Roughly the logic is, "if I'm better at hitting than you, I have a better chance of blocking your strikes with my weapon."
The way I suggested Parry should work, it would be based on your total attack stat, not just base stats or a piece of equipment. A lot of people invest a little in attack only to realize that damage is what matters later on. And most of the best weapons give less attack compared to damage. So I think it's fair to use the total attack stat for this skill. And even though the skill works based on your attack, it would still count as a defensive skill because it makes your opponent miss...

#18 KaSSS

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 16:34

but then with parry, u'd have to calculate a good defense-to-attack ratio, and how would that work against oponents defense.
And would a parry be based on ur attack or defense, since it (in theory) relies on weapon


Not really, I was thinking more along the lines of having Parry grant a base %chance per skill point to block the opponent's attack, and on top of that you would gain a further bonus to the %chance based on how good your attack is compared to their attack. Roughly the logic is, "if I'm better at hitting than you, I have a better chance of blocking your strikes with my weapon."
The way I suggested Parry should work, it would be based on your total attack stat, not just base stats or a piece of equipment. A lot of people invest a little in attack only to realize that damage is what matters later on. And most of the best weapons give less attack compared to damage. So I think it's fair to use the total attack stat for this skill. And even though the skill works based on your attack, it would still count as a defensive skill because it makes your opponent miss...


But then u have another dodge. If i'm not mistaken, the whole concept of parry is to be able to turn your opponents attack against him

#19 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 17:05

But then u have another dodge. If i'm not mistaken, the whole concept of parry is to be able to turn your opponents attack against him


That is how coyotik is proposing it, and this is how I'm proposing it, so if you like how he proposed it, I'm cool with it. But as for the actual concept of parrying...I turn to the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

intransitive verb 1 : to ward off a weapon or blow 2 : to evade or turn aside something

I understand that actually doing damage to your opponent by turning their attack on them is meant to make it more interesting, but it is my humble opinion that that's not really a defensive buff...yes it triggers on the defensive but it does nothing whatsoever to improve your defense, really.
Maybe if coyotik's idea and mine were combined?

#20 KaSSS

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 17:20

so u proposing something similar to Deflect, but in combat? It'd have to have some kind of return effect on attacker, otherwise i dont see the point of having it. It would be like dodge + dodge, player who has high dodge, + that would never get hit


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