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Replacement defensive skills


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Poll: Do you like it? (21 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you like it?

  1. yea (23 votes [92.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 92.00%

  2. nay (2 votes [8.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

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#21 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 17:44

so u proposing something similar to Deflect, but in combat? It'd have to have some kind of return effect on attacker, otherwise i dont see the point of having it. It would be like dodge + dodge, player who has high dodge, + that would never get hit


Yeah if you combined my idea with coyotik's Parry, the skill would probably have two effects:
1. A small chance of dodging the attack (based on how many skill points you invested into it)
2. A chance to return the attacker's damage to him (based on your attack vs. your opponent's attack)

And as for the first part, it's practically just an increase to Dodge skill, but it doesn't have to work that way. It could instead be a bonus to your total defense (base stats + item bonuses) by a percentage based on the skill level. My only point in including the first effect is to give Parry an actual defensive effect. If it only had the second effect of returning damage, I think it would be more of an offensive skill masquerading as a defensive buff.

#22 KaSSS

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 18:13

yeah, that was my point (maybe i should have said so early :) ), to deflect oponent's strike and counter attack him.

Now the question would be wether 1. and 2. had the same chance (5% dodge, and 3% for counter [can occur with dodge, but doesnt have to], or 5% dodge & counter)

#23 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 18:24

yeah, that was my point (maybe i should have said so early :) ), to deflect oponent's strike and counter attack him.

Now the question would be wether 1. and 2. had the same chance (5% dodge, and 3% for counter [can occur with dodge, but doesnt have to], or 5% dodge & counter)


I think the second version is more useful and reliable - each time the dodge from Parry triggers, the counter (riposte) attack also triggers, they always go together.

#24 fs_xnosxx

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 19:28

Anyone agree that we should have higher lvs for a skill such as lv 2 AL were it is .3% per point lv 3 AL would be .4% so when you get a reset you can just put your skills to the next set of lvs but theis would also be at worthit time sych as lv 2 for your skills availible at lv 150 and LV 3 for your skills at lv 300 this would of course help with the defence buffs so they could have a good percentage and it seems you will finally start putting a ok amount of armor and Def on when you are at 200+ so say a lv 3 skill called

daimond skin LV3
.3% Def and Armor per point

So this would be very very worthit and for the very high lvs they will not die easy at all also a great way to make some very strong groups.

Tremble
take away .1% of your opponents attack damage and Defence per point

so LV three would be .3% at lv three and if you had daimond skin lv 3 on at same time you would be never hit mostly and if you are it wont be for much damage

Great Vigor to make it more worthit would be Lv 2 would be .5% per point and lv3 would be .10% per point so it can give you up to adding on your current HP onto what you have and half of your regular hp onto that.

#25 KaSSS

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 20:01

yeah, that was my point (maybe i should have said so early :) ), to deflect oponent's strike and counter attack him.

Now the question would be wether 1. and 2. had the same chance (5% dodge, and 3% for counter [can occur with dodge, but doesnt have to], or 5% dodge & counter)


I think the second version is more useful and reliable - each time the dodge from Parry triggers, the counter (riposte) attack also triggers, they always go together.


but what lvl would these skills be? i belive that anything below 150 would be 2 powerfull if we take second version. and 5% (0,05 per point) sounds reasonable..
comments?

#26 fs_coyotik

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 23:38

Well, to reiterate what I had in mind with those two skills (names and their dictionary definitions notwithstanding)...

We all know that base defense and armor suck, the combat system basically forces you to avoid them. So, to make defensive skills worth having, we basically need to make them offensive skills based on defensive attributes.

I don't think the Parry, how I imagine it, should increase the chance of dodging the attack - you should have a high enough defense to dodge it anyway quite often... so what should the skill actually do? I see two possible mechanics:

1) Use the enemy's effort to make him hurt himself... You know... when he charges, step aside and let him ram the wall, trip his leg to make him fall, let him run into your weapon. Here the more powerful the attack would be (read - damage), the bigger the injury to the attacker.

2) Use the enemy's failed attack to your advantage for your next attack. I.e. if he swings at you, duck and let his blow turn him around, getting an opportunity for pierce/critical etc.. This wouldn't need to generate direct damage during his attack, then - but lower his armor or defense for your next hit...

Now, if the thorny armor is implemented as a "defensive-offensive" skill for those who defend with armor, I assume that this would result in direct damage, so I would actually prefer variant 2) for the Parry skill, to make it different (and possibly in some cases make it a better tactical choice against a particular creep).

#27 KaSSS

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 23:43

parry sounds excellent, sounds as if it could "spice up" PVP.
Still having trouble picturing thorny though. That something like iron maiden in diablo 2?

#28 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 00:18

It's quite common in RPG games - spiked shields, shoulder pads etc.. so that when somebody hits you, they suffer, too. I only adapted it not to reflect percentage of the inflicted damage onto them (as is usual, but not fit to our combat system), but instead reflect percentage of absorbed damage...

This one might need different handling in PvP and in PvC combat, because against creeps, quite a high percentage would be reasonable (as HP is the dominant stat of creeps), but in PvP, it would have to be different as players quite often have only the base HPs... for example, losing 2 HP for every attack that caused only 1 HP damage would be enough...
But it would possibly have serious implications...

I must admit that originally, I never thought about PvP with those skills...

#29 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 02:10

I was thinking of PvP more in fact, this Thorns ability would be really deadly in PvP...and if it were based on the damage of your opponent that would be instant death for most players due to the high damage, but if it were toned down to 1-2 damage reflected then that would make it downright useless against creeps.
I realize that you want to actually make defensive skills matter in regular combt (against creeps) but I prefer the PvP oriented version :wink:

#30 fs_xnosxx

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 02:22

Hmmm something great about parry would be focus your stats on damage and Def so example for a battle

You swing you miss(because of your low attack lets say)
Your opponent misses/You parry for 1250 damage
You are victorious

So in PVP if your opponent misses all the time then you just wind up parrying and kill them simple.

even better focus on armor and Def but almost no attack or Damage so battle goes

You swing you miss
your opponent misses/You parry
Your opponent hits for 1 damage
you miss
your opponent hits for 1 damage
you miss
your opponent misses/you parry
you win the fight

so you would be invulnerable even in a long term battle.

#31 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 08:51

I realize that you want to actually make defensive skills matter in regular combt (against creeps) but I prefer the PvP oriented version :wink:


Well, there's a neat solution - make the HP loss from Parry/Thorns a percentage of the target's HP (i.e. 0.2% per skill point, thus going up to 30%...)

#32 KaSSS

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 11:44

0,2% might be a bit 2high, since it sounds like a really powerfull skill. Maybe leave thorns as a damage related return hit instead of HP related. it'd be cool 2 c double kill in pvp :lol:

#33 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 12:09

0,2% might be a bit 2high, since it sounds like a really powerfull skill. Maybe leave thorns as a damage related return hit instead of HP related. it'd be cool 2 c double kill in pvp :lol:


0.2% isn't that much... even at level 150, that's 30% of HP lost on attack... In PvP, that's not a showstopper, because most of the time people defend with defense, not armor - so the effect of this would practically be applied only to people that attack with much lower attack ratings, hoping for the 2% of luck...

Against creeps, it might make life easier in the 2hit kill zones...

#34 KaSSS

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 12:14

i dont c how it would help 2kills, since it again requires 2hits. Unless u mean when u hit something and leave it with 30-ish hp left. With 150+ lvls weapons (and some armor) are such that EA & EW can take care of it.

#35 fs_tikbalang

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 15:32

0,2% might be a bit 2high, since it sounds like a really powerfull skill. Maybe leave thorns as a damage related return hit instead of HP related. it'd be cool 2 c double kill in pvp :lol:


0.2% isn't that much... even at level 150, that's 30% of HP lost on attack... In PvP, that's not a showstopper, because most of the time people defend with defense, not armor - so the effect of this would practically be applied only to people that attack with much lower attack ratings, hoping for the 2% of luck...

Against creeps, it might make life easier in the 2hit kill zones...


I like this, if it shreds off 30% of HP then in PvP, it is far less likely that the defensive player will lose to an opponent with low attack who is just seeking to get a lucky hit as the skill effectively limits the number of combat rounds.

Also, it would work fairly well against creeps because at my level, for example, there are creeps which I can one hit and some creeps which I fall short of 1-hitting, by a mere 100 damage or less...if I had this skill active and wore enough defensive gear to force them to miss their first strike I could effectively be 1-hitting with a set like KAX (you only expend 2 stamina if you get 2 strikes correct?), this makes defensive sets a bit more valid as an option in combat.

#36 fs_coyotik

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 16:43

Come on, 18 votes so far? Don't tell me that you don't care about the skills...

#37 fs_deadlystrk

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 18:06

HCS show us your voice.. def skill need to be changed long time ago..

#38 fs_ravana

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 00:29

I've been wanting something like this for some time (and have even said so occasionally... :roll: ). I like your basic ideas. Most defensive skills are useless as they stand.

I've also plugged the notion before that we should get more level-up points each level... make the character's stats count for a little bit more of the character (rather than having 90%+ of your stats coming from your gear). There could be level-based limits on how much could go into each stat, to "encourage" (that is, "require") that some of the points go to something other than atk/dmg. This alone would make even the existing skills worth something.

Having the skills give direct bonuses (as opposed to %-of-stat bonuses) is a good idea... it can also be used in the development of higher-level skills, whenever HC decides they need some more.

#39 fs_ravana

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 01:00

Level 1:

Vigor - change the skill to add HPs equivalent to a percentage of the character's LEVEL. I.e. 1% per skill point, so a level 100 character would get up to 135 HP (fury shrine, max points himself)


Sounds good as it stands. Or even half that.

Level 25:

Evade: similar to Vigor, but affecting defense and being weaker - i.e. 0.05%*hero_level bonus to defense per skill point.

Rockskin: the same, armor


Or turn them around: 0.05%/level for Vigor and 0.1%/level for each of these. Works either way. Though I think you meant Fortify, not Rock Skin....

Level 75: Absorb and enchant armor as they are now.


Only thing I'd say about that is that very few people ever develop Absorb... there are simply more useful skills out there. It's not useless, just usually not worth it when compared to other skills available. Well, that, plus Absorb is actually L25, not L75, but that's a minor detail.... :wink:

Rock Skin: follows the pattern above. If Fortify/Evade provide 0.1%/level, then Rock Skin provides 0.05%/level to both armor and defense. Or else do something completely different—base it on an enhancement rather than a stat: say, doubles the effectiveness of Reinforced Armor (your armor is increased 50%) if the enhancement is triggered? Or doubles the chance of it triggering?

Level 150: Get rid of aura of protection, replace with two new skills

Skill Name: Parry - when opponent misses in his attack, cause some damage to him... probably a percentage of his own damage roll.

Skill Name: Crown of thorns - counterpart for Parry. If the attack scores only 1 damage, part of the absorbed damage is inflicted upon the attacker.


Not bad ideas... though we already have enough skills to spend points on lol! Maybe just one of these... probably Parry. Though you could also express this as "Riposte"—in which case the damage done should be a percentage of your own damage, not your opponent's. "Parry" really ought to just give you a better chance to avoid damage (i.e. increase opponent's chance of missing... say, add a percentage of your attack score to your defense score?).

I like the Crown of Thorns concept, but it might be better if the opponent takes damage whenever the buff reduces it, no matter how far it is reduced (say, 0.1%/level chance that the buff reduces damage and returns that damage—or part of it—to the opponent... could give us "double kills" :lol: ).

Note that by expressing these as "opponent" rather than "attacker," you make them useful in normal combat, not just PvP combat... since you are the attacker in normal combat. This won't matter if you're one-shotting critters, but it will make a difference whenever they get to hit back at you.

#40 fs_coyotik

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 14:13

The "wrong" level numbers were intentional - part of the reform. This is how the skills would look:

Level 1 - Vigor, character-level-based effect

Level 25 - two skills (Evade and Fortify/Rockskin), both level-based again, one for defense and one for armor

Level 75 - Absorb and Enchant armor, unchanged (maybe absorb a little more powerful) - it should be a probability-skill.

Level 150 - Two damage-reflectors (one based on armor, one based on defense) - could be Crown of Thorns and i.e. Impale or Riposte (I know that Parry was a bad choice). The defense-based could convert attacker's ATTACK to damage, then - because this skill should be about evading the attack so smartly that the opponent will damage himself - either hitting a wall or impaling himself on defender's statically positioned weapon.


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