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Marketplace Cap


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Poll: What do you feel we should do in regards to the marketplace? (268 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you feel we should do in regards to the marketplace?

  1. Increase the cap to 500,000 (43 votes [4.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.76%

  2. Increase the cap to 200,000 (16 votes [1.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.77%

  3. Leave the cap at 100,000 (67 votes [7.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.42%

  4. Reduce the cap to 75,000 (190 votes [21.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.04%

  5. Reduce the cap to 50,000 (587 votes [65.01%])

    Percentage of vote: 65.01%

Vote

#201 fs_mun6502

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:02

That might just work LordAtog.

If sellers are charged sales tax on the full value of their listing but don't get a refund on the tax for unsold goods when the listing expires they will have to be more conservative in their prices or not sell in such bulk.

You'd end up with a lot of 1 and 2 FSP listings because the risk is lower when selling in lower numbers.
Ultimately you still need to control income to control prices on an open market.

#202 fs_lordatog

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:06

That might just work LordAtog.

If sellers are charged sales tax on the full value of their listing but don't get a refund on the tax for unsold goods when the listing expires they will have to be more conservative in their prices or not sell in such bulk.

You'd end up with a lot of 1 and 2 FSP listings because the risk is lower when selling in lower numbers.
Ultimately you still need to control income to control prices on an open market.


but problem is right now only thing to really affect the market is the cap and people trying to be slightly lower than next guy in hopes of selling sooner if you take away cap but instead add the fee and time limit sellers will start regulating themselves based on what people are willing to pay...

and a boycott could actually do something as of right now a boycott would only work if everyone boycotted and there were more people wanting to sell fsp willing to lower

with the fee if you can get enough people who normally buy to take a week off the sellers will start losing some money and either have to raise price and hope they sell to make back or lower prices so they dont continue to lose money on fsp that dont sell

added with edit

there will prob always be an increase of gold much faster than fsp.. right now they arent asking how to solve the value of fsp just how to get better control of market and above stated would make a free market where peoples choices of when and how to buy would actually affect the sellers and i already offered a way to reduce the price of fsp by making them more abundant but also making everything that cost fsp rais by same factor that the fsp are multiplied by thus allowing people to by prtials of what is today known as a FSP

#203 fs_mun6502

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:17

If you're not selling your stock and you're losing money the only thing you can do is to hold a sale, cut your losses and don't try to sell at such a high price again.

if you list 30 FSP's at 100,000 and that costs you 30 x 100,000 x 5% = 150000 gold, then you only sell half of them. You've paid the tax on 30 of them and only sold 15, so really you've paid 10% tax on each one you that you sold.

This will not lead to raised prices to recover the overpaid tax, it will lead to people listing their stock at prices and in quantities that they can be sure will sell within the time limit so they pay the minimum tax.

Fact - people don't like paying taxes. They try to reduce their tax bill as far as possible.

Another thing that happens in the real world - higher earners are taxed at higher rates. We don't have income tax in FS but that is the device governments use to limit the extra disposable income the very top earners get from each extra dollar earned.

#204 SirAdmiral

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:20

Do not reduce it.

#205 fs_shylesson

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:27

With the fluctuation of gold, so therefore the fluctuation of the prices. Anyone remember when ya could get an FSP for 2000gp...less even? This is just the natural progression of the game! There was a time when everyone insisted prices wouldn't even get up to 25k per point and scoffed at those suggesting such a thing. Everyone complaining about the prices are too cheap to pay in game gold for something that many players have paid offline cash for. I think if the marketplace gets capped lower, many will merely resort to selling outside of the marketplace: they get more gold for their fsp AND do not have to pay the lousy 2.5k to list their items.

Of course people are going to complain about the prices because they are prices that they themselves cannot pay nor want to pay. But give it a few more months and see the prices then! Who is to say what is an acceptable price or not? What? Just because the prices used to be 50k per point? That means diddly! The prices USED to be 1k per point! Think that it's fair now?

Sellers increase their prices because of many reasons:
1. they know that people can now pay the prices
2. the fsp are just that valuable
3. the demand is high so SOMEONE will pay that price
4. many sellers actually pay REAL money for those fsp

I think the cap should be increased as high as possible so people can sell their fsp for what they think/know they are worth. I personally rarely use the marketplace to buy or sell fsp, but I do not gripe about those who do. That's their prerogative.

#206 fs_lordatog

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:28

I think I've read every thought on the subject. I think I have a solution.

EXPIRATION DATES on FSP ! :idea:

Yes, it'd be a bit of a database nightmare for the HC staff to implement, but if all FSP were assigned an expiration date (say 30 days for the date they're created), then there would be incentive to sell them before they expired and the price would drop. There would be no hoarding. This expiration date would be visible to everyone and would travel with the FSP (i.e. the clock wouldn't restart as it changed hands). This would maintain business for HC, and also serve to keep market prices at a reasonable level. Faced with an inventory of evaporating FSP, sellers would be motivated to sell FSP; the market would stablize.

This would have the dual effect of emptying out the Auction House as well. Most everyone has experienced trouble selling equipment after the glut of Legendary events lately. If players were holding expiring FSP, then they might be inclined to invest them in equipment and extra backpack slots.

Can any of you find any holes in this idea?


yes one what would be point in investing money in fsp if your to use within a month.. would also make the er of fsp fall even more as they would all be used up

#207 fs_mun6502

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:29

I' ve just been corrected by my guild actuary.

Taxes on selling will discourage selling altogether. Player will stop selling FSPs on the marketplace and will use tax free secure trades instead.

The way to drive down prices is to increase the supply of FSPs.
Or you could increase the value of Gold. Currently we use gold for
1. Guild upkeep.
2. Hellforging.
3. Buying FSPs.

If you could increase the demand for gold, and limit the supply then you'd have this thing licked.

#208 fs_shylesson

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:30

I think I've read every thought on the subject. I think I have a solution.

EXPIRATION DATES on FSP ! :idea:

Yes, it'd be a bit of a database nightmare for the HC staff to implement, but if all FSP were assigned an expiration date (say 30 days for the date they're created), then there would be incentive to sell them before they expired and the price would drop. There would be no hoarding. This expiration date would be visible to everyone and would travel with the FSP (i.e. the clock wouldn't restart as it changed hands). This would maintain business for HC, and also serve to keep market prices at a reasonable level. Faced with an inventory of evaporating FSP, sellers would be motivated to sell FSP; the market would stablize.

This would have the dual effect of emptying out the Auction House as well. Most everyone has experienced trouble selling equipment after the glut of Legendary events lately. If players were holding expiring FSP, then they might be inclined to invest them in equipment and extra backpack slots.

Can any of you find any holes in this idea?


so why would i buy an fsp that is about to expire?

and why then would i buy 400+ fsp at a time? If I have to spend them within 30 days or sell them, there is no incentive for me to buy such a large quantity knowing I will not be able to do that. Because to sell for cheap gold is to have wasted my REAL money.

#209 fs_mun6502

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:37

Let's not forget the effect of the recent 1millionth player, birthday "double gold" and downtime "increased gold" events.

They increased the gold supply too. Anyone think that the shoot in price from 60k to 100k over the same time period is a coincidence?

Just in case you missed it before

Sales tax - BAD IDEA

Limiting gold supply or making gold more useful/valuable - GOOD IDEA

#210 fs_shylesson

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:41

Its simple.

The marketplace price will always be related to the amount of money the buyers can earn.

Someone gaining 50 stamina an hour, killing mobs dropping 10 gold each time can earn 500 gold an hour

Someone with 50 stamina getting 200 gold per kill earns 10000 gold/hour.

The marketplace will always be controlled by the highest earners. And their income is rising as fast as their levels.


Or the highest HOARDERS. I myself can make a good 400k at least when i level with half of my stamina, but it all goes directly into my guild or buying items for my mates. Whereas I have a guildmate who is over a hundred lvls below me who has millions in his bank.

Again, it goes to what people are willing to pay.

Maybe HCS can create another goldspend, but to make the higher lvls have to suffer just because the lower lvls want to complain that they can't get free fsp where others pay real money. Yes, FREE. This online gold is NOTHING.

So you have to work harder to make more gold. It can be done. So you do not get to buy one at the current marketplace: there are TONS of free offers to do. If anything HCS should like that many cannot reach the prices that some are offering cause it can also promote people to do more of those free offers.

I want a Ferrari...just because...think Ferarri should decrease their prices just because their prices are nothing like Honda and Toyota?.....o_O

#211 fs_saela

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:43

As things currently stand, the market does indeed need more regulation. Why? Because it is NOT really a free market at the moment, players have almost no choice on what to do with their gold. The usefulness of gold is extremely limited and it is very easy to get to the point where your choices for gold are:

A) Do nothing at all with it, just watch it sit in your inventory, and vaguely wonder when you're going to get pked and lose exp over it.
B) Get rid of it, (basically) the only way that is available: buy fsp. 500k for 1 fsp? Yeah, whatever, at least it gets the big red bullseye out of my inventory and into someone else's. Someone who actually still needs gold for whatever reason.

I think the real solution here is to add more options: When people are free to spend their gold in ways other than sickeningly overpriced fsp, the people who sell fsp at sickening prices will lose their business. Until then however, it's artificial regulation or (in a ~month) we can all say hello to 500k fsps.

As for the arguments about why an artificial MP cap would not work "because people can sell them somewhere else" -- I think this is a really silly argument and I've already posted in another thread about why. If people really believe that a capped marketplace will change nothing, tho, I'll say this: Then you should have no problems with the market being capped, because it really won't affect you now will it? I have a lot more to say about this, but it's already been said.

A seller's boycott of the MP is just as unlikely as all the talk/whining about a buyer's boycott. If the new cap were stupidly low it might happen, but I think overall the idea of a player-wide boycott across the whole of FS is just unfeasible and stupid. Also, let's not forget how prices were back in the old days when people did use the forums/SB consistently for selling. Did you see any 100k fsp then? Blaming the MP on the price hike might be a gross oversimplification, but there is no doubt whatsoever that it at least contributes.

As for capping/reducing the amount of gold monsters drop, this would work. It does have some major problems tho:

--It would probably not be retroactive across the entire game.
--It would not remove the gold already in circulation.
--It would lead to so much whining the forum would need approximately five billion mods to keep a handle on it, and probably a good deal of people (ones who do not understand the situation) will probably quit or at least get closer to quitting.
--It's also an artificial solution, much like a market cap. Would still work, but it lacks elegance.

Having said all that tho, it is one of the few suggestions that treats the underlying cause of the disease (too much gold) and not just the most visible symptom (overpriced fsp).

#212 fs_saela

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:47

Oh, and this is kind of a near-miss point but I should probably include it:

The amount of gold monsters drop does need to be kept in check somehow, either by reducing it, capping it, raising repair costs, whatever. If the FSP market is highly regulated and gold inflation continues, eventually it will get to the point where players can get near-infinite stamina by spending stam to get gold, spending gold to get fsp, then spending fsp to get stamina.

Probably not going to happen any time soon, but if the gold drop rate of monsters continues indefinitely then it will probably happen eventually.

Just something to keep an eye on.

#213 fs_shylesson

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:47

Why doesn't HCS make the upkeep for the structures much like the Fury Shrine? Instead, the price per upkeep increases per lvl or rather per every 25-50 lvls of the guild. I mean, as the players increase in lvl, they are having more gold to deposit in the bank so they can make the upkeep, and having it every like 25 lvls gives them some time to prepare for the price jump.

Also, as guild conflicts are nothing more than a pvp rating point system right now, implement repairs/stolen-lost gold with those.

I am sure there are other ways to get the gold spent, but I think people need to throw some ideas out there so we are actually doing constructive with the 'higher lvls making more gold' argument. Why should I be penalized just because I started this game before you and have advanced my man?

#214 fs_baldie

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:52

I just read through the entire thread and all I can say is that Economics is complex. Way complex.....

No wonder I barely got through it when I had it as a subject in my Engineering! :wink:

#215 fs_shylesson

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:56

Expiration dates on FSPs will lead to nobody buying them. That's not a good idea as HCS will lose out.

I disagree. I'd still want backpack slots - wouldn't you? Also, FSP would be bought in smaller quantities thereby increasing HCS's profit. But I agree, it would certainly drive the price down (which is what most people are complaining about).

I still can't derive a solution for the AH, however. Nobody would sell any equipment for FSP - too much risk in getting FSP that are days (if not minutes) away from expiration.


but why would i buy in smaller quantities even? as you say, the prices would drop drastically so all i have to do is buy a ton on the marketplace for cheap to do my upgrades. so cannot see how that is promoting more spending. $5 more times eventually gets to the $60 that many are willing to pay over and over. It's just a slower reach.

#216 YouNoSeeMe

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 19:57

I don't think it will do any good to change the value of the fsp in the marketplace. But i do agree that the upgrade page needs to be changed. And i do like the idea of gold being introduced into the upgrade page as well.

11ilrurjpg_zps06178485.png


#217 fs_boiledhash

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 20:03

Ehh I started this game at times with no marketplace when price was 25k gold / fsp, it was harder times then now. Newbie had to work hard to achieve first fsps and was happy when get unique sets... Legendaries prices were when i think should be - for donating or just richer players...

Look FS team what u did then:

1st - u were changing forging conditions to actual. At that harder times it was really ok.
2nd - u were starting more events that brought too many legendaries in da game, there are plenty of them at auctions for funny prices, demand for uniques has been lowered much...
3rd - with so many legendaries which give practicly the strongest equip stats people (from about 50th-60th level +/-) have enough cash to buy fsps in marketplace to forge them so they started to do that.
4th - fsps come to the game only via free offers or donating game so it is still much smaller supply...

Changing max marketplace prize will not reduce this gap between suply/demand (but at least to help newbies I would lowered it to 75k).

After what i wrote earlier in MY very private opinion your question is incorrect !!! Answer is:

Reduce (!!!) a number of items at auctions (especially those of one type from the same player) and it do the trick. Market will balance again...

#218 fs_boiledhash

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 20:07

Ah one more thing ;-)

U can return option of recovering fsps from forging. It is quick way to balance market too ;-)

#219 fs_kevman

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 20:15

50k

#220 fs_lordatog

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 20:16

Ermmm isn't up to the individual as to how much they sell their FSP for on the market place, the game makers have no real say in this as far as im concerned ( putting a maximum sale price will only drive people away from the game plus deals can be done via secure trade anyway, unless you are going to regulate this and put a maximum on there as well ) nore do they have a right to tell us we can only sell items for a maximum amount of FSP or gold, if some one wants to sell say the rune of decay for say 500 fsp then they have a right to do so ( i know most people who put these kinds of prices on the auction house don't want to sell there items for this much and are just keeping backpack slots for other things, but that's another story )
As for putting an expiry date on FSP's i would be demanding my money back thats for sure.


reason they may need to start a ebay type fee for making auctions based on startig price


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