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New creeps and new combat system?


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Poll: What do you think? (5 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think?

  1. Nah, I'm happy with 12345678r without watching (2 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  2. Nah, too complicated (2 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Yes, this is a good base for future improvement of FS (2 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

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#1 fs_coyotik

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 17:02

Get ready for a long read...

The aim of this idea is to make creepkilling fun, not something that you do on autopilot, only occasionally repairing gear, emptying backpack etc.

The principle

1) New creeps would survive several rounds of combat and yield a lot of experience. Keep the amount of stamina used similar to today, but reduce the amount of kills by an order of magnitude (so, where we kill 300 creeps today to make a level, killing 30 would suffice). Of course, item drop rate and gold gain would have to be adjusted as well.

2) Apply ideas of PvP arena to PvC. Players could use various combat move setups to be performed in the combat, creeps would do the same. Some of the combat moves could be purchased in shops, some would be available only when a certain buff is activated on the player. (These buffs could replace the sucking defensive buffs that multiply base points and therefore nobody uses them).

How to integrate this idea with the current gear system without causing a revolution?

From creeps level 600 above (to give developers time for this), the combat system would change to work like this:

* Each player would have his $level hitpoints (+whatever boni from guild and gear).
* Monster's damage vs. player's armor would be determined to calculate hit severity rather than exact number of HPs, according to a table like this:
| Arm/Dmg | Hit type | HP reduction  |
| > 95%   | Glancing | 5% of $level  |
| > 70%   | Light    | 10% of $level |
| > 40%   | Full     | 20% of $level |
| > 5%    | Piercing | 30% of $level |
| < 5%    | Critical | 60% of $level |

So, a well-armored player could afford to get hit many times, while a defense-based setup would, like today, rely on avoiding the hits because otherwise the player would be only able to withstand 1 or 2 hits (as any HP from gear and guild would increase his HP capacity over 100% ($level).)

Of course, monster enhancements would be able to shift the actual percentages...

On the monster side, one big adjustment would be necessary - compared to "normal" monsters, the new ones would have approximately 50% of their hitpoints added to armor. (That means that the new creeps would be still compatible with the damage-heavy setups that the current combat system bred.) (And their hitpoints would work similar to player hitpoints, being something that is to be cut down in relative chunks, not by absolute dmg/armor difference).

Also, ratio between attack and defense of both participants could have some effect on the percentages....

To make the combat interesting, the new creeps would ALSO use combat moves. There could be various possibilities in here:

a) each monster would have a choice of whole combat setups to randomly choose from (some monsters would have all setups similar, some monsters would have extremely different setups)

b) each monster would have a choice of combat moves to randomly use in each combat

c) each monster would have on-the-fly-composed setup, where it would be able with various probability of success to use it's own combat moves to counter the combat moves used by the player. (This would open room for a few new buffs as well, that could negate this ability or negate effects of particular buffs).

Anyway, the desired outcome of this change would be that combats against monsters would:
a) be interesting to watch
b) be non-trivial to do well
c) not affect any new players who would have 599 levels of the old system
d) would make much more room for differentiation between players, because the combat length could vary according to quality of the setup from as short as 5-7 turns to 20 turns.
e) would offer room for new weapon enhancements (i.e. +1 Dodge move when equipped) or (+5% damage on pierce/critical) etc...
f) would remain compatible with majority of current buffs.
g) would be a nice Halloween or Christmas present (depending on whether they'd manage to do it from level 600 or 700).

It's a very rough idea, of course, I mostly wrote from the hip :).

#2 fs_ecolitan

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 17:25

This is kind of what I expected when I started in FS. It might make leveling more "exciting" but I think if you want all this - there are games for it.

I can't see FS implementing a whole new combat system for leveling which, quite frankly, is a small part of this game. Also, if counter-attack is as deadly in a creeps "portfolio" as it seems to be in the arena I'd hate to run into one that had it.

#3 fs_coyotik

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 17:33

This is kind of what I expected when I started in FS. It might make leveling more "exciting" but I think if you want all this - there are games for it.


Well, that's the sad thing - there are games for it and many people want it and leave FS exactly for the reason that it is very monotonous (unless you manage to find your own enjoyment in one of the side activities).

Meaning that I don't think that leveling is "a small part" of this game. It's the CORE part of this game. You are expected to level up.

Yes, there are some people who get their kicks from PvP, there are bounty hunters, there are PvP arena specialists, there are GvG specialists, but if you scratch those "freaks" (no offense, meant in positive sense) out, you're still left with a LARGE group of players who do a lot of leveling. (Yes, there are freaks like me who do nothing else..., although I partly get my kicks from coming up with ideas how to make the game better).

So, it's not small enough part of the game so that it should be allowed to get boring.

#4 Dark Archon

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 21:12

Yes the game is very bound in how they want you to raise your character... HCS has killed all game diversity months and months ago with unbalanced addons... making the core part of the game exciting would be more fun and encouraging... at least for me...

I want to add something... and this would make it harder for HCS, but imo it would be alot more rewarding...

I want to be able to have a preference, where I can choose the game play type... so right now at my level, I can face these type of monsters instead of the same monsters with their current stats...

The change that is then required is another table of stats per monster, and a boolean variable...

#5 Hoofmaster

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 21:29

coyotik,

I understand where your coming from, however over-complicating a game can have serious detrimental effects on it (I've learned this from experience). Take for example another one of our games Gothador - it started out really simple and built up over 3 years - however now a new player joining it is somewhat overwhelmed by the complexity and features within it.

Although the combat is somewhat simple in some respects here - I think that may be the appeal for many players - ie. they don't have to get bogged down in over-complex stats to understand whats happening.

Thats just my opinion - I might be wrong :lol:

#6 fs_dsjupiter

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 21:33

coyotik,
Thats just my opinion - I might be wrong :lol:

:shock:

#7 fs_coyotik

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 22:51

coyotik,

I understand where your coming from, however over-complicating a game can have serious detrimental effects on it (I've learned this from experience). Take for example another one of our games Gothador - it started out really simple and built up over 3 years - however now a new player joining it is somewhat overwhelmed by the complexity and features within it.


First, thanks for the reply :).

I mentioned that this would only affect the NEW content, didn't I? All new players would still have 600 levels to go through the old, easy way. (In fact way too easy if you get into a decent guild, you get +240 stat points so you can run around naked for about 40 levels, 1hitting without dying :))

Although the combat is somewhat simple in some respects here - I think that may be the appeal for many players - ie. they don't have to get bogged down in over-complex stats to understand whats happening.


I wouldn't mind a simple combat system. It's bearable if it comes in reasonable quantities. But since the creep count needed per level slowly grows, it's really getting tiresome despite the doubler buff - and tiresome for just the reason that you don't care about how the combat goes, because you know! That's why people want "attack all" button (an idea that you once considered and then dropped for reasons unknown) - to get rid of the menial repetition, skip the mechanical activity...

Also, I'm not asking for any over-complex stats. People do already setup their combos for PvP arena, they would just do the same for creeps. The only real change offered here is the armor-damage handling, and that's done in order to allow both player and creep to survive multiple hits WITHOUT having to significantly alter their stats (Of course I could have suggested to just give the creeps 10x more HP, but the player's side would be very hard to do...)

And the third thing - DA suggested that this could be an alternative, opt-in. Again, I am fairly convinced that it would require very few changes apart from writing the new combat engine - because you could then create new content as usual for the old system, only adding the combat moves (whichever variant you'd find feasible) to the new creeps (ignored by old engine). Even the creep armor could be computed on the fly in the engine by adding 50% of HP...

I know that it would be a reasonable amount of work in any case. But it would give many players something new to look forward to.

I don't know if you gather any statistics about player life-cycle - when do players stop playing... (finding out why is impossible of course). I do, however, think that MANY players leave exactly because they soon realize that unless you find a side hobby (PvP, quests, arena, managing a guild, SE hunting), the game soon loses attractivity, because once you learn the game mechanics, it's just too easy and monotonous.

My account ID is almost 300.000, I'm #98 at the moment. Even assuming a very steep 90% of clones for recruiting, there are some 30.000 people who started before me... sure, I don't do PvP since about level 120, I have maxed stamgain (but not too early), I don't waste stamina on other things mostly, but how many of the 30.000 estimated players who started before me still play the game after a year and half? You could find out easily I think, a simple SQL query. I'm afraid the number won't be any too high. Introducing some change that would make one of the core game activities FUN instead of mindless clicking could change that, IMO.

#8 Dark Archon

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 22:58

The main reason I quit leveling is because it seemed that the actual process just got boring, I noticed I don't even watch the combat screens anymore... and all I really did was some basic math, which I later made a calculator for, and some item swapping... then mass keyboard slashing...

I would like a more interactive game play ^_^

And I would also like PvP to be fixed... I think this game has serious long term potential for all types of players if both of those happen... but I don't want to derail this good suggestion... so carry on ^_^

#9 doa4life

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 23:15

I think this would end up with a total of 5-10 players left playing the game, With creep enhancements it pushed a lot of peoples buttons because it changed, I have to agree with Hoof, The games simpilcity is what makes it so special, Its a click and kill game, not spend 5 minutes trying to figure out how to kill a monster type game, not to mention that if a change like this to be made it would really be sticking it to a lot of donators (they dontated because they like the current game format and to change it would probably upset more than a few of them)

Really if this is in other games and your bored with FS, why not just move on? I know I would.

#10 fs_coyotik

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 23:29

I think this would end up with a total of 5-10 players left playing the game, With creep enhancements it pushed a lot of peoples buttons because it changed, I have to agree with Hoof, The games simpilcity is what makes it so special,


So special that a very tiny percentage of users lasts more than a year?

I know MANY people who quit the game because it's "so special". And from the old-timers (relative to me) that I know, most of those who are still playing are here because they are either very high or in guild leadership or they do something on the side that keeps them in. I don't know a single level 300+ person who would say they like the game BECAUSE the leveling is so simple/boring.

Its a click and kill game, not spend 5 minutes trying to figure out how to kill a monster type game


In my experience, most click-and-kill games are about the killing. Either the killing is fun to watch or it requires some skill. None of this applies to FS. Meaning that if everyone played with doubler 50x, I don't think that there would be many complaints about "hey, give us more creeps to kill on the same level, we want more clicks!".

not to mention that if a change like this to be made it would really be sticking it to a lot of donators (they dontated because they like the current game format and to change it would probably upset more than a few of them)


See DA's proposal to make it an alternative that could be chosen or not.

Really if this is in other games and your bored with FS, why not just move on? I know I would.


I'm kinda-bored with levelling (esp. in the empty halls of Xinderoth) - and yes, I would have quit a long time ago, were it not for my guild and other folks that are fun to chat with. (and were it not for the three 60$ purchases I made... once I sunk money into it, it's much harder to say "sod it, it's boring" and just walk away :))

#11 doa4life

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 23:36

well, The simplicity kept you around for 400 levels, If you got bored and only stuck around for friends and such that seems like a personal issue. Im not saying its bad to leave friends, but I persaonally would hand off the ball and walk away if I got bored with the game. And If the only reason your still here is because you spent money on the game, that is really just superficial. Im here because I like the simplicity of the game. It allows everyone to play and still be equal, If you start complicating things many players wont know how to play and quite, It will leave the few bored brains (no offense to anyone smart) that play fs to walk around and play by themselves.

#12 fs_coyotik

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 23:46

It allows everyone to play and still be equal, If you start complicating things many players wont know how to play and quite, It will leave the few bored brains (no offense to anyone smart) that play fs to walk around and play by themselves.


For the third time: I like the idea of making this optional, so folks that could not or would not want the game to be more challenging could still stick to the click-and-kill boredom they call simplicity.

Also, when it comes to it, I see that you have 2 PvP Arena wins. Does PvP Arena seem too complicated to you? Because if not, that's almost exactly what my proposal is about - making the PvE combat interesting.

Also, one of the reasons I'm still around is, of course, the fact that the developers listen to the players (at least some time), so I hope that some things will evolve for the better.

And, by the way, if you so value the simplicity and repetitiveness of the combat system, why do you think that the doubler buff was introduced at all? NOT to give us more XP, but to make us level up quicker in the real-time sense - because even click-and-kill games have their limitations :).

#13 Dark Archon

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 23:49

To be honest it really wouldn't make the game more hard per se... but more fun...

If you have to spend 10 more minutes on the site, but you have fun doing so what is the issue to be had...

I'm not saying that you should make the game brain science, neither did coyotik... he is just asking to make battles more interesting so that the leveling aspect is more involved...

As the system is right now... you may as well as just add in a button which you click and it will add 1 level per click... and then have a race of speed clickers...

#14 fs_coyotik

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 00:00

If you have to spend 10 more minutes on the site, but you have fun doing so what is the issue to be had...


That's exactly my point. If making one level is supposed to take 10 minutes, I would really prefer at least the POSSIBILITY to spend them in a challenging way, not just in a click-kill boredom (especially since it's just "click", nobody watches the kills.

Spending 8 of the 10 minutes thinking up the right setup or testing a few of them and only the last 2 minutes applying the so-far-best strategy on a few dozen creeps max, that would IMHO be much better than "don the gear that others have tested before me, slap on the buffs and click away"...

As the system is right now... you may as well as just add in a button which you click and it will add 1 level per click... and then have a race of speed clickers...


Yep, leveling is 99% patience/resilience and 1% skill/challenge (the challenge being mostly "time your leveling so that nobody else is using the shared equip" and "grab the right potions in the AH").

#15 fs_deciever11

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 00:09

To be honest it really wouldn't make the game more hard per se... but more fun...

If you have to spend 10 more minutes on the site, but you have fun doing so what is the issue to be had...

I'm not saying that you should make the game brain science, neither did coyotik... he is just asking to make battles more interesting so that the leveling aspect is more involved...

As the system is right now... you may as well as just add in a button which you click and it will add 1 level per click... and then have a race of speed clickers...


o.O then make an upgrade for 100 FSP +1 click per day


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