Yet another skills thread :)
#1
fs_coyotik
Posted 01 September 2008 - 10:02
1) CounterAttack - needs scalability. Options:
a) when casting a buff, add an edit field that says "desired buff level" to allow casting weaker than max-strength buff. (Perhaps it could even reduce the casting cost?)
b) when left-clicking a buff on profile, don't ask to "deactivate", but instead ask to "degrade". (allow to change it to a lower level of buff). (Would be handy for doubler)
c) In preferences, have a slider/dropdown to set desired CA effect (+1 stam for +10% etc...)
For simplicity, the buff should use the ratio of 1stam per 10% regardless of doubler level (after all, just about anybody can buy the 450 bottle these days).
2) Doubler - this is actually a game-engine change, not a buff change. Please change the combat icons from 20-40-60stam hits to something sensible... like 3-5-20. That way, you will not have to make the stamina check inside the combat engine, but people with high doublers will not be forced to turn them off with 220 stamina remaining even if they know that they don't really NEED 20 hits to kill the monster.
3) Shield Imp - Could the cost be brought down to some 30 stam now that the buff has been nerfed? (And I assume that the bug that I reported is either gone or will be found and fixed...)
4) Constitution - could this be priced down a little as well? 25 stam is a little too much considering how powerful is the noodle-bowl version. Also, could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
5) Sanctuary - could we please get this as a buff? Replace Fortify or more likely Aura of Protection with it, make it 3 times weaker than it is now and upgrade the potions to be level 75 and 150 respectively. (So, the net effect of the potions will stay the same and whoever is stocked with them will have no reason to whine). Also, same as Constitution - it's permanent effect buff, so remove it from combat reports and increase the stats in profile.
6) Buffmaster - so far I haven't noticed anyone liking this buff. Durations of most buffs are long enough and if not, people will rely on sustain and extend, not hoping for luck.
My suggestion would be to keep a probability buff that would with some 15% percentage make the buff cost halved or so... Also if you insist on the skill trees, link that to extend
7) Lightfoot - I think that it's really too weak. 2-3 times stronger effect please...
8) Brewer Master ... What about renaming that to Bottoms Up? It's related to drinking the potions, not making them :).
Or, a bigger overhaul. Bottoms Up skill increases potion duration when drunk, a new buff Brewer master increases the BASE duration when the potion is cooked (and inventors and extractor are dependant on that buff). Space for the new buff could be gained by removing Reflect (which doesn't look really useful to me) and shifting things down... (or aggregating i.e. inventor 1 with the new brewermaster effect.)
9) Deflect - make it COST the attacker stamina, otherwise it's just an annoyance.
10) Assist - It would be much nicer to transform the randomness from "will work or will not" into "will always work, but the randomness will determine the actual effect". I.e. getting anything between 1-5% stats from one of my allies in all combats would be much better than getting 50% every now and then...
11) Shatter Armor is IMHO a bit underpowered... and what about introducing synergic effects? What if Shatter Armor added i.e. half of it's level to Spectral Knight when active?
12) A new long-term defensive buff. What we have in constitution, shortterm, is really necessary as a PvP only long-term buff. I imagine duration of 600 (1200 with sustaion) minutes and a reasonably low cost (20 stam), and the effect of 0.2% per level (that is +30% at level 150). This I see absolutely necessary in order to make PvP interesing. These days, with DC 200, you knock off 40% of defense without the blink of the eye, so whoever goes offline absolutely doesn't stand a chance against anybody in his level range. (And I'm not including Keen Edge in the issue at all). Again, a slight reorganization of the defense tree would make room for this easily).
Edit: Adding, as a separate item, a proposal for the revisited Defense skill tree.
Level1: Absorb (fine as it is) and Sanctuary (toned down to 33%-50% of current)
Level 25: Enchant Armor (linked to absorb) (fine as it is)
Level 75: Impale and Rockskin (when you succesfully defend a hit, either a small percentage (fixed) or higher, fixed amount (probability percentage) of damage is dealt to the creep. (Impale is for defense aka misses, Rockskin for armor (1dmg hits)).
Level 150: Fixed Deflect
Level 200 upwards: Happy with how things are (Although I cannot see any use for Fortitude and I think that Nightmare Visage isn't strong enough (plus I would want to have attack ADDED to defense, not transferred)).
Possibly some buffs (Defiance, Deep pockets, Last Ditch) could be moved from Special to Defense... Deep pockets level1, Sanctuary then level 25 would maybe be better...
#2
Posted 01 September 2008 - 11:04
3) Shield Imp - Could the cost be brought down to some 30 stam now that the buff has been nerfed?
4) Constitution - could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
5) Sanctuary - could we please get this as a buff? Replace Fortify or more likely Aura of Protection with it, make it 3 times weaker than it is now and upgrade the potions to be level 75 and 150 respectively. (So, the net effect of the potions will stay the same and whoever is stocked with them will have no reason to whine). Also, same as Constitution - it's permanent effect buff, so remove it from combat reports and increase the stats in profile.
6) Buffmaster - so far I haven't noticed anyone liking this buff. Durations of most buffs are long enough and if not, people will rely on sustain and extend, not hoping for luck.
My suggestion would be to keep a probability buff that would with some 10% percentage make the buff cost 0 stam or so...
7) Lightfoot - I think that it's really too weak. 2-3 times stronger effect please...
11) Shatter Armor is IMHO a bit underpowered... and what about introducing synergic effects? What if Shatter Armor added i.e. half of it's level to Spectral Knight when active?
totally agree
#3
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:10
50% chance to add 0
30% chance to add 5
10% chance to add 10
5% chance to add 15
3.5% chance to add 20
1.5% chance to add 25
This seem much more beneficial than the extra time as this is already covered by Extend
#4
fs_onemember
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:19
3) Shield Imp - Could the cost be brought down to some 30 stam now that the buff has been nerfed? (And I assume that the bug that I reported is either gone or will be found and fixed...)
4) Constitution - could this be priced down a little as well? 25 stam is a little too much considering how powerful is the noodle-bowl version. Also, could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
5) Sanctuary - could we please get this as a buff? Replace Fortify or more likely Aura of Protection with it, make it 3 times weaker than it is now and upgrade the potions to be level 75 and 150 respectively. (So, the net effect of the potions will stay the same and whoever is stocked with them will have no reason to whine). Also, same as Constitution - it's permanent effect buff, so remove it from combat reports and increase the stats in profile.
6) Buffmaster - so far I haven't noticed anyone liking this buff. Durations of most buffs are long enough and if not, people will rely on sustain and extend, not hoping for luck.
My suggestion would be to keep a probability buff that would with some 15% percentage make the buff cost halved or so... Also if you insist on the skill trees, link that to extend
7) Lightfoot - I think that it's really too weak. 2-3 times stronger effect please...
11) Shatter Armor is IMHO a bit underpowered... and what about introducing synergic effects? What if Shatter Armor added i.e. half of it's level to Spectral Knight when active?.
Odd :shock: Seems me and Joe777 agree with these ones.
Doubler,Brewer Master, Deflect and Assist are fine as they are now.
We don't need new defense buff, we need new attack buff that is not another useless "base level" buff. No overline in here?
EDIT: Thanks coyotik for your post. It seems pvp is almost dead so something need to be done, but maybe there is still hope with all of those buffs.
#5
fs_tawniteamo
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:42
3) Shield Imp - Could the cost be brought down to some 30 stam now that the buff has been nerfed? (And I assume that the bug that I reported is either gone or will be found and fixed...)
4) Constitution - could this be priced down a little as well? 25 stam is a little too much considering how powerful is the noodle-bowl version. Also, could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
5) Sanctuary - could we please get this as a buff? Replace Fortify or more likely Aura of Protection with it, make it 3 times weaker than it is now and upgrade the potions to be level 75 and 150 respectively. (So, the net effect of the potions will stay the same and whoever is stocked with them will have no reason to whine). Also, same as Constitution - it's permanent effect buff, so remove it from combat reports and increase the stats in profile.
6) Buffmaster - so far I haven't noticed anyone liking this buff. Durations of most buffs are long enough and if not, people will rely on sustain and extend, not hoping for luck.
My suggestion would be to keep a probability buff that would with some 15% percentage make the buff cost halved or so... Also if you insist on the skill trees, link that to extend
7) Lightfoot - I think that it's really too weak. 2-3 times stronger effect please...
11) Shatter Armor is IMHO a bit underpowered... and what about introducing synergic effects? What if Shatter Armor added i.e. half of it's level to Spectral Knight when active?.
Odd :shock: Seems me and Joe777 agree with these ones.
Doubler,Brewer Master, Deflect and Assist are fine as they are now.
We don't need new defense buff, we need new attack buff that is not another useless "base level" buff.
how the hell do we need another attack buff? we have too MANY attack buffs. Keen edge and Dark Curse annihilate any form of defense. making it -easy- for a lvl 200 player to totally wipe out a lvl 500 player
#6
fs_coyotik
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:49
Doubler,Brewer Master, Deflect and Assist are fine as they are now.
We don't need new defense buff, we need new attack buff that is not another useless "base level" buff.
Doubler as a buff is okay. What is not okay is that the game insists that you must have stam for 20 hits minimum when you will most likely need 2-3 only AND the game doesn't have a problem with having combats ending as unresolved in groups, so it could simply let you run out of stam not killing the creep.
Brewer Master is good as it is, of course (only the name is slighly wrong IMHO because the potions were brewed by somebody else, so the endurance is related to drinking them properly
Deflect sucks IMHO (and I know I'm not alone with that opinion). When it doesn't cost stamina of the attacker, the only thing it achieves is annoy the person as they will need extra time to repeat the attack. (And in case of a person being bountied, having deflect therefore lengthens their stay on the bountyboard, perhaps even increasing the total XP loss).
Assist may be good as a safety buff... how often does it make a difference in the actual levelling? If it kicks in, how often does it make 2hit kill into 1hit kill?
And if you say that we don't need any defensive buff, does that mean that you're really happy with the fact that if you're offline, whoever decides to attack you not only sees your stats and has the possibility to prepare them, but ALSO has the possibility to decrease your defense by 30-45%?
When two players of similar level meet, their total stat points should be roughly the same (base points + points from gear, following the 2*level per piece formular more or less).
The attacker is in position to get another 20% or so from buffs on his side (const, sanctuary, EA, EW, Fury, Berserk)... that's big enough advantage not to give him another bonus, a buff to drop enemy's defense by 30%.... (or 40+).
This is what makes PvP really BORING and uneventful. You know that you can hit anybody you can reach with minimum effort.
Right now, I can get defense of 5800. (with some effort and almost the best available equipment). I can easily get attack over 5000 (about 5300 with some effort), buffs excluded. Add Keen edge +33% - attack 6600, ignoring less imporant buffs like EA and EW.
Add even non-bottled DC 170 (-34% defense) - I could hit somebody with defense 10.000!
If you can beat almost double of possibly obtainable defense, that shows that there's something seriously wrong with the balance - BECAUSE to beat any reasonably reachable defense values, you then need much less effort, which means that:
a) you can use the extra points to ensure that you will survive even the most unlucky combination of combat happennings... (you miss, they hit and pierce).
PvP in FS favors attackers more and more. It's absolutely no challenge to hit anyone your level...
Unless the balance is restored, PvP will remain almost dead.
Of course, the balance could be restored easily - make DC PvE only...
(and decrease the relic-defense bonus for single-relic guilds somewhat, though... 25% would be enough).
Edit: TT maybe exxagerrated a little, because on level 200 there's not nearly enough suitable equipment... even without any expensive buffs and potiions, I could beat 70% stronger defense than I could obtain... Add DC225 plus EW and EA and it could really be 100%...
#7
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:54
2) Doubler - this is actually a game-engine change, not a buff change. Please change the combat icons from 20-40-60stam hits to something sensible... like 3-5-20. That way, you will not have to make the stamina check inside the combat engine, but people with high doublers will not be forced to turn them off with 220 stamina remaining even if they know that they don't really NEED 20 hits to kill the monster.
Thinking about it, dont forget some ppl do use 60stam attacks when they try to solo some SEs desparately
#8
fs_coyotik
Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:55
2) Doubler - this is actually a game-engine change, not a buff change. Please change the combat icons from 20-40-60stam hits to something sensible... like 3-5-20. That way, you will not have to make the stamina check inside the combat engine, but people with high doublers will not be forced to turn them off with 220 stamina remaining even if they know that they don't really NEED 20 hits to kill the monster.
Thinking about it, dont forget some ppl do use 60stam attacks when they try to solo some SEs desparately
Ah, a good point... make it 3-10-60 then
#9
Posted 01 September 2008 - 16:21
3) Shield Imp - Could the cost be brought down to some 30 stam now that the buff has been nerfed? (And I assume that the bug that I reported is either gone or will be found and fixed...)
4) Constitution - could this be priced down a little as well? 25 stam is a little too much considering how powerful is the noodle-bowl version. Also, could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
5) Sanctuary - could we please get this as a buff? Replace Fortify or more likely Aura of Protection with it, make it 3 times weaker than it is now and upgrade the potions to be level 75 and 150 respectively. (So, the net effect of the potions will stay the same and whoever is stocked with them will have no reason to whine). Also, same as Constitution - it's permanent effect buff, so remove it from combat reports and increase the stats in profile.
6) Buffmaster - so far I haven't noticed anyone liking this buff. Durations of most buffs are long enough and if not, people will rely on sustain and extend, not hoping for luck.
My suggestion would be to keep a probability buff that would with some 15% percentage make the buff cost halved or so... Also if you insist on the skill trees, link that to extend
7) Lightfoot - I think that it's really too weak. 2-3 times stronger effect please...
11) Shatter Armor is IMHO a bit underpowered... and what about introducing synergic effects? What if Shatter Armor added i.e. half of it's level to Spectral Knight when active?.
Odd :shock: Seems me and Joe777 agree with these ones.
Doubler,Brewer Master, Deflect and Assist are fine as they are now.
We don't need new defense buff, we need new attack buff that is not another useless "base level" buff.
how the hell do we need another attack buff? we have too MANY attack buffs. Keen edge and Dark Curse annihilate any form of defense. making it -easy- for a lvl 200 player to totally wipe out a lvl 500 player
Yeah, if someone has both, the probably wouldn't have to focus on attack at all.
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#10
Posted 01 September 2008 - 17:53
I'd rather have a 5 stamina - 10 stamina - 20 stamina - 40 stamina - 80 stamina choice... I suggested this before...2) Doubler - this is actually a game-engine change, not a buff change. Please change the combat icons from 20-40-60stam hits to something sensible... like 3-5-20. That way, you will not have to make the stamina check inside the combat engine, but people with high doublers will not be forced to turn them off with 220 stamina remaining even if they know that they don't really NEED 20 hits to kill the monster.
You do know constitution does not work at all in PvP...4) Constitution - could this be priced down a little as well? 25 stam is a little too much considering how powerful is the noodle-bowl version. Also, could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
I think it would be better to just introduce 2 more sanctuary potions now that creatures have enhancements... level 75 and level 150...5) Sanctuary - could we please get this as a buff? Replace Fortify or more likely Aura of Protection with it, make it 3 times weaker than it is now and upgrade the potions to be level 75 and 150 respectively. (So, the net effect of the potions will stay the same and whoever is stocked with them will have no reason to whine). Also, same as Constitution - it's permanent effect buff, so remove it from combat reports and increase the stats in profile.
idk about this one...9) Deflect - make it COST the attacker stamina, otherwise it's just an annoyance.
I think assist is fine as is... maybe reduce the stamina cost to 20...10) Assist - It would be much nicer to transform the randomness from "will work or will not" into "will always work, but the randomness will determine the actual effect". I.e. getting anything between 1-5% stats from one of my allies in all combats would be much better than getting 50% every now and then...
I do believe that Spectral Knight reduces the targets armor to 0... right...11) Shatter Armor is IMHO a bit underpowered... and what about introducing synergic effects? What if Shatter Armor added i.e. half of it's level to Spectral Knight when active?
+0.1% per point chance to reduce targets armor by 100%
Yep
Again constitution only works in PvE...12) A new long-term defensive buff. What we have in constitution, shortterm, is really necessary as a PvP only long-term buff. I imagine duration of 600 (1200 with sustain) minutes and a reasonably low cost (20 stam), and the effect of 0.2% per level (that is +30% at level 150). This I see absolutely necessary in order to make PvP interesting. These days, with DC 200, you knock off 40% of defense without the blink of the eye, so whoever goes offline absolutely doesn't stand a chance against anybody in his level range. (And I'm not including Keen Edge in the issue at all). Again, a slight reorganization of the defense tree would make room for this easily).
With DC 200 or 225 Keen Edge really isn't needed :S and most people who PvP aren't using elite sets... but common items...
I'd rather see the skills on both offense and defense changed to work on the overall stat, and not the base stat... the % of course would be nerfed to compensate... check out my suggestion for Skills on %stat for more info...Edit: Adding, as a separate item, a proposal for the revisited Defense skill tree.
Level1: Absorb (fine as it is) and Sanctuary (toned down to 33%-50% of current)
Level 25: Enchant Armor (linked to absorb) (fine as it is)
Level 75: Impale and Rockskin (when you succesfully defend a hit, either a small percentage (fixed) or higher, fixed amount (probability percentage) of damage is dealt to the creep. (Impale is for defense aka misses, Rockskin for armor (1dmg hits)).
Level 150: Fixed Deflect
Level 200 upwards: Happy with how things are (Although I cannot see any use for Fortitude and I think that Nightmare Visage isn't strong enough (plus I would want to have attack ADDED to defense, not transferred)).
Possibly some buffs (Defiance, Deep pockets, Last Ditch) could be moved from Special to Defense... Deep pockets level1, Sanctuary then level 25 would maybe be better...
#11
fs_dyrnuth
Posted 01 September 2008 - 18:01
#12
fs_bladeboss
Posted 01 September 2008 - 19:20
2) Doubler - this is actually a game-engine change, not a buff change. Please change the combat icons from 20-40-60stam hits to something sensible... like 3-5-20. That way, you will not have to make the stamina check inside the combat engine, but people with high doublers will not be forced to turn them off with 220 stamina remaining even if they know that they don't really NEED 20 hits to kill the monster.
Thinking about it, dont forget some ppl do use 60stam attacks when they try to solo some SEs desparately
Ah, a good point... make it 3-10-60 then
I agree
#13
fs_coyotik
Posted 01 September 2008 - 21:59
You do know constitution does not work at all in PvP...4) Constitution - could this be priced down a little as well? 25 stam is a little too much considering how powerful is the noodle-bowl version. Also, could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
No, I didn't know that (as I don't really care about PvP myself). But I'm suggesting this because even for the creepkilling, the buff is way weaker and more expensive than the potion, which is IMHO wrong. SOME change is needed. If, for example, they would decide to cut the Constitution potion down to level 100, then it would make sense to spend 25 stam for a level 150 buff... but right now, the potion is stronger, cheaper and longer-lasting than the buff...
idk about this one...9) Deflect - make it COST the attacker stamina, otherwise it's just an annoyance.
Well, what's the point of casting deflect? If somebody is doing a bounty on you, this will only make it last longer. I think that many people would support this as I have seen it suggested many times.
I have never spent stam on it... I tried it out as a potion when it came out and then forgotten that it exists, because it really makes very little difference...I think assist is fine as is... maybe reduce the stamina cost to 20...
Again constitution only works in PvE...
With DC 200 or 225 Keen Edge really isn't needed :S and most people who PvP aren't using elite sets... but common items...
Well, there's a nice 2-set at level 415
#14
Posted 01 September 2008 - 23:28
You do know constitution does not work at all in PvP...4) Constitution - could this be priced down a little as well? 25 stam is a little too much considering how powerful is the noodle-bowl version. Also, could constitution be please changed to have "immediate" effect visible in defense rating, rather than being applied in each combat? After all, it's not a probability buff.
No, I didn't know that (as I don't really care about PvP myself). But I'm suggesting this because even for the creepkilling, the buff is way weaker and more expensive than the potion, which is IMHO wrong. SOME change is needed. If, for example, they would decide to cut the Constitution potion down to level 100, then it would make sense to spend 25 stam for a level 150 buff... but right now, the potion is stronger, cheaper and longer-lasting than the buff...idk about this one...9) Deflect - make it COST the attacker stamina, otherwise it's just an annoyance.
Well, what's the point of casting deflect? If somebody is doing a bounty on you, this will only make it last longer. I think that many people would support this as I have seen it suggested many times.I have never spent stam on it... I tried it out as a potion when it came out and then forgotten that it exists, because it really makes very little difference...I think assist is fine as is... maybe reduce the stamina cost to 20...
Again constitution only works in PvE...
With DC 200 or 225 Keen Edge really isn't needed :S and most people who PvP aren't using elite sets... but common items...
Well, there's a nice 2-set at level 415. Yes, KE is not really important and on lower levels won't be that efficient, but the balance issue is made only a little less tragic by that.
Well what is the point of having the stat change to reflect constitution when it doesn't work in PvP... it would be misleading... the stamina change is good though...
Yes, I know deflect is pointless... but I am still unsure as to how to handle it...
Assist makes a difference at some levels, but not alot... when it does it is a noticeable difference... I think a 1% - 5% stat increase on a few random allies would not be too efficient on helping in strategies or combats...
I honestly can't see myself wanting to use keen edge in PvP or PvE...
I think I covered all your replies to my replies...
#15
fs_coyotik
Posted 02 September 2008 - 06:32
Well what is the point of having the stat change to reflect constitution when it doesn't work in PvP... it would be misleading... the stamina change is good though...
I don't want to change any STATS to reflect constitution. I want some buff added that will counter the effect of Dark Curse and Keen Edge and restore the PvP balance.
I remember the days when attacking somebody of your level was not a piece of cake, because the only advantage you could have gained were a few percent in the form of a few relatively weak buffs.
That's why I think that having a buff that does +40% defense for PvP only and lasts almost a day is a necessity. That way it will again cost some EFFORT to win a combat as attacker.
Yes, I know deflect is pointless... but I am still unsure as to how to handle it...
What's so complicated on just aborting the combat as it does now AND spending the stamina of the attacker? I don't see any issue with it, anything that would be unfair or illogical...
I honestly can't see myself wanting to use keen edge in PvP or PvE...
I already used it in PvE with success... Just have a look at creeps 400-420, there are some tough beasts and if you don't want to spend on DC200 or DC225, KE does the trick...
In PvP it would have it's use for relic taking... I don't know what is the defense total for the most-crowded relics, but I could singlehandedly score against total of 10.000.
#16
fs_coyotik
Posted 04 September 2008 - 14:19
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