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Major stats change in future updates


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#1 Joe777

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:15

Well, where to start. I guess you all realize how the item stats works. Base stats for common uncrafted items are twice the ammount of your lvl. So say at lvl510, any common items have exactly 1020 stats points to split. There are various factors increasing the ammount of stats like rare, unique, LE, crafting and forging of course. Most of it are just tiny little bits.

Lets get back a few hundreads of levels in time. Do you remember that time? Do you remember playing without LE sets and changing gear with fresh one nearly every single level because it made such a huge difference? Havent you loved it? And now? For example in 400-500 lvls, you keep using either xindy set or MOM set, depends if you need to use ARM or DEF. And you use it all the way to 500 at least.

I know this is also because most of the sets in that level range suck as sets for levelling. But there is one more reason IMHO. Those 2 extra stats points are not really noticable anymore at that level.


Ok, finally to the main point of this. I understand such change cant be made to the current content anymore but could you consider some major change for future update in the stats given by items? Say in the new content with lvls 520+, instead of giving just 2 extra stats points per lvl, give us 5 or even 10 points. And of course, with such change, start increasing the creature stats more dramatically as well to keep the balance in.

This fresh air might help enjoying some variety of sets in levelling again. Side effect for HCS is, we will need more BP slots again and spend more for crafting and forging so nothing to loose really :)

I would appreatiate players input on this. Please only post if you are at least 300-400 lvl, otherwise you cant truly understand the real issue with this (or if you think you do, go ahead, hehe).

THIS SUGGESTION AINT ABOUT MAKING GAME EASIER

#2 fs_coyotik

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:33

It's not a bad idea - total stat points available will grow, but so will the total stat points on creep, meaning much more room for choices.

I also hope that with the new items, we won't be seeing the useless armor+defense combination anymore :)

#3 RJEM

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:39

Well, I'm certainly not level 300+ as Joe suggests, but I do think I understand the problem here, just from looking around at what higher levels are wearing to level up in!

The sets themselves seem to be far less useful the higher up in this gam you get, which seems counterintuitive to me - why should those who work hard end up with poor sets and stat bonuses, whilst lower levels like me can have the benefit of, for example, the Cu Sith set which owns just about every creature from 150 to 170.

For the purpose of keeping the extremely useful high level players in the game (so we benefit from their awesome buffs etc.) I think better sets or stats for common items are a sensible suggestion.

This would need to be balanced by stronger PvE opponents, but this has been mentioned. Maybe getting back to the days when finding a 1 or 2 hit setup which worked could become a reality?

#4 fs_ecofrog

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:11

Bob is right for sure.... Master of Magic for me with 2 of the opticore parts has been the only set for me for 80 levels. That is 5 parts... then the other 4 i have been filling in with Argus, Crushing Fist or a random DEF drop and a few other good items or set parts i find. I ran into trouble when suddenly i needed an ARM set around level 505 and, i hadn't kept an ARM piece for 80 levels.... Thank goodness for guilds!

From level 1 to 10 that +2 is a 1000% increase.

But more importantly

from 100-110 it is a 10% increase

From 200 to 210 it is a 5% increase

From 300-310 is a 3 % increase

From 400-410 a 2.5% increase

From 500 -510 a 2% increase.


So Joe is right. Since the relative value of new gear diminishes towards zero i have just auto trashed almost every drop on the way. HCS spends some time making those items (i imagine), naming them, detailing them, and 95% of them will never be used.

I have to say that only having to change 2 or 3 parts every level has been refreshing. And being able to use 1 set most of the time and then work around it has been nice too. Plus, people deserve a bit of a reward for doing the level 400-421 area and all those awesome sets come out of that content. Still, i see the problem.

If gear and creeps were scaled together that would be handy for that problem. IF creeps got tougher faster, gear would become obsolete more quickly. Making looting/looted items more important.

Needing those items and needing to FF them is important too. Since it costs over 20 000 000 gold (plus 10 FSPs) to FF a level 500 item, it would create a larger gold drain in the game too exactly where HCS wants it... at the top.

The drawback i see:

#1 This will increase the power differential between players. BB and Relic capture may be affected by this sort of change. As it would be increasingly difficult to defend against a higher level attacker. It is already difficult to impossible and this would just make it a small percent harder, so that aspect of game play should be considered as well.

#5 jmaisc

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:12

I totally agree with joe777, seems that HCS didn't plan correctly the expansion for lvl sets after lvl 421. There is a large number of items that we get from drops that are useless and 9 items sets that exist at lvls 460, 470 and 480 are pretty useless, good armor and attack but low damage.
With creatures new features they are useless and thats why I keep using partial sets like MOM, xinder and even argus.
The sets stats at lvls 460 and higher, like Kreth, Quana and others should be configured like argus and xinder and give the extra stat points required to be useful against creatures, or new partial sets should become available to allow us the flexibility of changing from high armor, attack, defense or damage and tweak the final results with other items, like rare or unique.

#6 fs_coyotik

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:17

As it would be increasingly difficult to defend against a higher level attacker. It is already difficult, this would just make it harder, so that aspect of game play should be considered as well.


In fact, you have just brought forward another nice point of this idea. It's now NOT "increasingly difficult to defend against a higher-level attacker". It's just plain impossible! It's in fact impossible to defend to anyone 30-40% below your level, if they really want to hit you. I can solo ANYONE - I can hit 10.000 defense!, that's what you could in theory get if there was def-only gear :).

So, scaling items stronger with level might actually redress the balance here.

#7 fs_azuk

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:19

there is another solution to this as well.


For the large sets say 5 items plus allow players to get a partial set bonus if the wear 3 out of the 5 items. Then increase this i they have 4 on etc.


I have been meaning to post a suggestion about this for ages but get sidetracked by other things atm. I'll dig out what i had come up with when I'm not at work

#8 fs_coyotik

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:24

there is another solution to this as well.
For the large sets say 5 items plus allow players to get a partial set bonus if the wear 3 out of the 5 items. Then increase this i they have 4 on etc.


I've been proposing this for ages, along with the empower used to allow enhancements over 100%. Most interesting items are not used BECAUSE they break sets, making you lose both the stats bonus and XP...

#9 fs_azuk

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:30

Its nice to see champion sets are returning again as there was a period where there weren't any for quite a few lvls.


I know these mean a bit more work each content but i do think they provide people with alternatives to just 1 setup.

I myself would like to see 1 elite / 1 champ set maybe 2 per update it just gives us more flexibility and means we arent all using carbon copies of gear.


Lvl 510 - 520 can be done in pretty much 1 setup without changing more than 2 items over the entire 10 lvls

#10 sweetlou

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:51

Just to throw two cents in this very interesting thread...

First, not all elite sets are any good. Fact. But all of them?

I agree that the majority of elite sets above 420 are completely useless! Hp stats in every piece do nothing. Let alone beg you not to FF them. The cost of FFing a piece above 430 is 30 fsp/pp. Armor sets are have very little usefulness as well and none for leveling.

A 9 piece set will never be any good! Fact. There's just no flexibility!

Certain pieces from them work great. But they are the exception.

I understand accelerated leveling puts you ahead of the developers release of new SE sets and even some LE sets. Ok, I can live with that...

But the current majority of elite, rare or common items is set. It would be nice to have, like Joe's suggesting, some adjustment to the way the stat points are increased. Or even just give us some elite sets that are def based and not 9 piece sets. Aka useful...

AzUK's idea of making partial set bonuses come into play sounds great...

The current elite sets and most pieces just aren't much fun IMO.

But not all is boring and bad. Champ sets are getting better and useful somewhat like the 390s :)

Thank you

Two more cents for the thought jar :) lol

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#11 sweetlou

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 12:52

there is another solution to this as well.
For the large sets say 5 items plus allow players to get a partial set bonus if the wear 3 out of the 5 items. Then increase this i they have 4 on etc.


I've been proposing this for ages, along with the empower used to allow enhancements over 100%. Most interesting items are not used BECAUSE they break sets, making you lose both the stats bonus and XP...


So both of these sound awesome :)

Two more... :) LOL

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#12 fs_azuk

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 18:55

sadly a lot of points were hit here that do seem to cause problems.

I know that for me from 400-500 besides not having many set choices to choose from I managed to survive on a few sets with an item swapped here or there all the way to lvl 500... It'd be nice to have a few choices for sets while lvling to match the player.. as it these days you'll see that almost all the 400-500 wearing identical sets as there is 0 other decent choices.

I miss all the swapping of sets and gear...now it's like 1 set forever...



I've said this before if you want to be at the top you will have to put up with a lack of gear LE/SE sets normal come quite a while after content is added


The 500 LE set is the first LE set ive used for over 150 lvls i never used Octo spine or argus realy as whole sets

#13 fs_ecofrog

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 21:38

As it would be increasingly difficult to defend against a higher level attacker. It is already difficult, this would just make it harder, so that aspect of game play should be considered as well.


In fact, you have just brought forward another nice point of this idea. It's now NOT "increasingly difficult to defend against a higher-level attacker". It's just plain impossible! It's in fact impossible to defend to anyone 30-40% below your level, if they really want to hit you. I can solo ANYONE - I can hit 10.000 defense!, that's what you could in theory get if there was def-only gear :).

So, scaling items stronger with level might actually redress the balance here.


LOL. "increasingly difficult" was a polite way to say "just plain impossible"....

Scaling items this way would make it easier for higher level players to hit lower level players. Scaling items this way would make it even more difficult for low level players or guilds to defend a relic or survive in GvG, PvP. it may advantage higher level players in DEF but it is unlikely to be fixed since U rightly note that U can take out 10K def, and i don't think 8K can be made by players with the gear and buffs available.

This isn't a criticisim of JOE777's idea or point though.

Maybe 24Hr offline DEF buffs are the way to go? There might be another solution since the PvP GvG problem is caused by buffs like DC225, KE175, etc. Also the fact that U only need to prep for a few min to take something but an offline DEF or relic DEF requires 24/7 coverage....

The solution to the diminished value of sets for hunting should be considered in the context of other game effects was all i was saying. Maybe assess the two together so that a solution doesn't cause other problems in other areas.

#14 Joe777

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 01:36

Thanks for all the opinions. Seems its definitelly something to look at.

#15 Morgwyn

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 08:00

I have one comment to make. And forgive me if I am asking something stupid, but if it costs around 30 fsps in those levels to FF something, and ur gonna make the game in such way that u basicly need to FF all your items to get further (or at least that is the idea I am getting from u guys), then how will this affect the players that do not have access to those amounts of fsp? They need to quit playing after level 350-400?

I am at level 238 the moment I write this message, and fully forging something costs me about 20 fsp. Since I do not have so much access to fsp, I only FF when I see no alternative, and I really need it to level pleasantly. (2-4 hitters).
I can allready tell in advance that I would not be able to come up with 30 fsps for each item I need to equip, unless the gold income from killing the beasties goes up dramatically also.

I totally understand that without set changes in almost 80 levels it might get boring, hence I allready had that when I used my sammy set for over 40 levels. Something needs to change I can also understand that, but having to FF everything u have will I think make a great portion of players to quit the game unless they can level in an acceptable way without the FF.

I shall now wait for the "It is ur own fault that you cannot comeup with enough fsp to FF everything bla bla bla". ;)

#16 fs_coyotik

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 08:19

I am at level 238 the moment I write this message, and fully forging something costs me about 20 fsp.


Correction - it costs you 10 FSP and about 1million gold.

Recalculating everything into FSP is a bad idea because there's no guarantee of what will the FSP price be and what will the availability of FSP be :)

Anyway, other points:

1) Find a guild that shares equipment a lot! Make good use of the guildlocking. We're by no means a rich guild (in the sense of having a few rich players who would donate a lot to the guild), we just work like a team, pool resources and share equipment.

gold income from killing the beasties


That's always been more than enough. Of course, you can spend a lot of gold on various potions - and it's only up to you to decide whether it's worth it, depending on your maximum stamina and the effect the potion creates.


I shall now wait for the "It is ur own fault that you cannot comeup with enough fsp to FF everything bla bla bla". ;)


In a sense, yes. Teamplay is the key. I haven't used a single non-FFed item for the last 200 levels or so - and I do NOT donate FSP, I do NOT do free offers, I do NOT do trade heavily in the market. It CAN be done, but it needs teamwork.

Maybe 24Hr offline DEF buffs are the way to go?


That's what I suggested somewhere already. There should be something that gives up to 40%-50% defense rating, PvP only, long-lasting buff. THAT will make PvP challenging for the attacker again...

#17 Morgwyn

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 08:31

The fsp price has been around 100K for about a year now, unless something big happens it is unlikely to change back to around 50K which the price was when I started playing. Therefore it is quite safe to recalc prices in fsp. Or else let me refrase: Currently it costs me 20 fsps to FF an item. :)
Also, since I do not have 1M gold at hand, I need to exchange another 10 fsp to get 1M gold. So basicly, it DOES cost me 20 fsp. :P


As for the guild, I have made a choice to leave my former guild (Knights of Conquest) and start my current one, that is a 1 man guild for the time being. This is due to my personal feelings and objectives/challenges. What is the fun if I can just get any piece of equipment that I want/need just because my guild has it? I like the challenge, as long as it is a challenge and not an impossibility. And that was the problem I saw and tried to explain if the game becomes like u have to FF about everything u have.

I am sorry, but I never reached the point in this game that I had to much gold at hand and did not know what to do with it. I (almost) never buy potions as I cannot afford them, most gold that I can save up goes into fsps so I hope to be able to upgrade my character or FF a piece of equipment when I do not see an alternative.

Teamplay helps, I totally agree, however as I stated earlier, I made a choice to go solo atm, and since the game is not forcing everybody into a (big) guild, this type of gameplay should remain an option, just as long as it is a challenge, and not an impossibility. I don't mind if it is harder when being alone, I can handle that.

#18 fs_coyotik

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 08:50

As for the guild, I have made a choice to leave my former guild (Knights of Conquest) and start my current one, that is a 1 man guild for the time being. This is due to my personal feelings and objectives/challenges. What is the fun if I can just get any piece of equipment that I want/need just because my guild has it? I like the challenge, as long as it is a challenge and not an impossibility. And that was the problem I saw and tried to explain if the game becomes like u have to FF about everything u have.


I don't really understand this. FS is a heavily-guild-oriented game - and complaning that when running solo, it's impossible to have everything FFed, that really doesn't make sense.

What would be the point of having guilds if everyone could manage solo just fine?

It's about choices. If you want everything cheap and easy, you go into a big, well-organized guild... maybe too big and too impersonal for some... There's a compromise of smaller guilds that don't have every structure maxed and don't necessarily have all the top-of-the-line equipment... and there's very small guilds of friends who have accepted the fact that they will not level up at the highest possible speed, but they will have fun... and then there's the hardship of going solo.

I am sorry, but I never reached the point in this game that I had to much gold at hand and did not know what to do with it. I (almost) never buy potions as I cannot afford them, most gold that I can save up goes into fsps so I hope to be able to upgrade my character or FF a piece of equipment when I do not see an alternative.


There's always an alternative. Sometimes the alternative is "stay a level lower as this creep is simply too tough". Not being rich only means that you will have to resort to this alternative a little more often.

Teamplay helps, I totally agree, however as I stated earlier, I made a choice to go solo atm, and since the game is not forcing everybody into a (big) guild, this type of gameplay should remain an option, just as long as it is a challenge, and not an impossibility. I don't mind if it is harder when being alone, I can handle that.


Well, it IS an option and a challenge. The goal of the game is NOT to have everything FFed, after all, so what's the problem with "impossible" there? What's the "goal"?

#19 Morgwyn

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 09:05

I'd have to disagree with you. I am not complaining, I am just saying that when fsp resources are limitted it is nearly impossible to FF everything you have. For me there is little difference in being solo, or being in a small guild. Chances of being able to get everyting FF'd in a small/medium guild is low also. And as said I made a choice to go solo. The game offers that option, eventhough it being guild orientated. By giving that option, it should support this kinda game play also imo. Otherwise they should force everybody to pick a guild on joining the game.

Everybody chooses a play type that fits the person. Some go solo, some go SE hunting, others go for the bounties, and others go for GvG, and so on. Some goals are achieved easier by joining a guild, some solo.

And again, I settle for less than 1-2 hitting, the leveling speed is not that important. The point for me is the challenge, and as long as it is a challenge I am ok with whatever. What I am trying to say is that if u have FF everyting just to be able level it would become an impossibility, thus not a challenge. If that means sublevelling is an option I just might do that when I get to those levels, that is no problem for me. Just as long I can advance towards a new area/level in a reasonable time. (not that I have to stay in 1 area for 20 levels...)

That the goal is NOT to have everything FFed is exactly my point. ;)

#20 fs_coyotik

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 09:10

What I am trying to say is that if u have FF everyting just to be able level it would become an impossibility, thus not a challenge.


Well, I'm quite sure that you don't have to FF everything "just to be able to level". I haven't done the research at all, but I think that one should be able to 2-3-hit even in common gear against almost every creep. Meaning that if you FF everything, you get something like 800 extra points. at your level. Not having those obviously can NOT result in "not being able to level at all"...


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