Jump to content

New tough creeps (more fun, gold sink, new buffs)


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

Poll: Like this? (36 member(s) have cast votes)

Like this?

  1. Voted It all sucks (2 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  2. Voted Tough creeps (10 votes [27.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  3. Voted Combat moves (6 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  4. Voted New buffs/enhancements (10 votes [27.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  5. Voted Less gold (8 votes [22.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21 fs_coyotik

fs_coyotik
  • Guests

Posted 25 November 2009 - 16:54

I think you kinda exaggerate with your 10-30 hit combats...

first of all you don't mention the gold sink it brings with it (is this wrong?),
because a 10hit battle is a 90% gold sink :/ (you are only talking about
correcting the droprate and XP for the number of hits)


I think that I mentioned somewhere that gold would be adjusted too, but by a lower multiplicator - i.e. if the average stam cost per kill increases 10 times, XP should increase 10 times and gold only 4 times or so.

second I don't see the "extra" challenge of 10hitting compared to 2 hitting :/
the idea is still getting enough def or armor to prevent being hit, only in a
10hit combat the creature has 10x as much chance to hit you in the combat,
and an armor setup will result in 10x 1 damage, instead of 1x1 :?


No, the idea is that there would be new enhancements, buffs and possibly arena-style combat moves - so that the player would have choices t o make - i.e. use a buff that makes your hits cost +3 stamina, but each reducing creep armor by 10%,, or a buff that adds bleeding, incurring increasing HP loss, or another buff that i.e. sacrifices one or two turns of combat for the purpose of either hardening your armor or increasing your defense or charging your opponent and halving his attack or defense. This all in the version that would only be built on new buffs and equipment enhancements - if combat moves were to be introduced there, it'd be much simpler to describe :)

#22 fs_coyotik

fs_coyotik
  • Guests

Posted 25 November 2009 - 17:17

more buffs is not something to make life harder...well not for people with a
high max stamina...they will keep buffing themselves with all they need...


This is assuming that all those "more buffs" have only positive effect - but that's not the case. These would all come with a "cost", just like CA does. This whole idea is about multiple CHOICES, not just "get all you can and hammer away".

you only make hunting impossible for people with a low max stamina, because
they need all those buffs to lvl a bit normal...


I'll repeat it again - these would be high-level buffs, possibly restricted to self/guild, useful only against those high-level creeps. They could cost 5 stam each only, as it is expected that you would do a lot of changing between levels.

And anyway, having low max stam at level 900 would mean that you're a loser :) - that's the reality of this game that if you want to level up most efficiently (XP/stam ratio), you need AT LEAST 3-4 days' worth of maxstam just to cover the costs.

I don't see why we need to change the whole lvling idea in this game.


Because it's awfully boring and totally lacks challenge. We use in average maybe 30 different items for 100 levels and the only challenging part is calculating upfront what level of CA do you need (or when it's more economical to 2hit).

To make 1 hitting impossible is one thing...


I don't really care about this - in the long run, it's about being more efficient than your competition, and the actual absolute speed of levellling is up to developers who have to provide new content for it.

adding annoying enhancements like Hypnotize
are not going to work for me...there is no need for knowledge, only the need of
some luck those enhancement don't kick in too often...


Well, this idea is not about random enhancements. It's about bringing challenge to levelling again, to bring some elements that actually allow the smarter players to gain an edge - and for this, you NEED to have choices, and ideally a system that allows for a good granularity.

Right now, we practically have between 1 and 2 choices on each level. You either dare to go 1 hit without CA or go with CA25 (and in some cases, the latter will be better because the amount of 2hit rounds without CA might actually cost you more stam. That is right now the ONLY challenge in levelling, and with tools like the combat log analyzer, it's slowly disappearing as the guild accumulates knowledge about different variants.

I don't see why we need to force people
to make 10hit combats and burn a week stam in 2 minutes :/


Noone forces you to use doubler in the proposed system :) - and I'm sure that many players wouldn't, at least until they comfortably research the most efficient combat variant. And with some, i.e. monthly small tweaks in creep stats and enhancements, it would be very easy for the developers to force other players to do the research, too. This is in fact the worst part in it - as a new player in a good guild, your future is completely lined up, because there were dozens of guildmates before you who killed the same creep and compared their effectivity to nail the best solutions.

#23 Prezze

Prezze

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 771 posts

Posted 25 November 2009 - 17:51

Ok this post is long, but I do think this includes the combatmoves part Coyotik thinks of.
My battle is made with only a select few of those moves. So alot of variations are possible even if you base yourself on the same stats buffed up.

I'm not sure if it's Coyotiks idea as well, but you can use all moves multiple times.

(to obtain those moves some basic ones are awarded when reaching lvl 900, others are obtained through questrewards (choosing out of 2 moves, not being able to ever get the other move), others again are from champions or recipes)


your stats buffed up

attack = 4000
defense = 1000
damage = 10000
armor = 6000
hp = 150

creature stats
attack = 10000
defense = 4500
damage = 7000
armor = 10000
hp = 50000
enhancement = Acidic touch, when you are hit you loose 50 armor each turn
enhancement = parry/block, when you miss you take 5 damage

skill list
defense related skills

dent shield = with a fierce attack, you hit the opponent causing his shield to show dents. Lowering the creatures defense with 1000
destroy shield = in an all out blow you destroy the shield of your opponent. Opponents defense is completly reduced. Due to the strength used, you can't attack the next 2 turns
steal shield = with a cunning move you are able to take the shield from your opponent. Opponents defense is completly reduced. Opponent can't hit you for the next 5 turns, but your damage is lowered with 10% due to not being able to wield your weapon with 2 hands (can only be used 1 time in a combat
retreat = you call out for retreat, the next 2 turns you can't be hit

damage related skills

berserkers bite = you bite your shield increasing your anger, you do 20% more damage for the remaining battle
backbreaker = with an unhuman strength you swing your weapon at the opponent, causing 25% more damage this turn. Your weapon takes 5 points durability loss from the impact.
barbwire = you prepare your weapon and put a barbwire around it. Opponent loses 5% hp each turn from bleeding.
headbutt = you charge at the target doing 20% more damage this turn but you loose 10% hp of your current hp

attack related skills

on your knees = you force the opponent on his knees, reducing his ability to strike you with 50%. (opponents attack -50%)
raging shout = you highten your attack speed with a shout, the next 3 turns only you are able to attack.
frenzy = you highten your attack with 20%, but you loose 10% defense
knee cutter = if you hit you do normal damage and reduce the opponents attack with 25%


armor related skills

blacksmith = you increase your armor with 50%
penetrate armor= you reduce the opponents armor with 75%.
shields up = for the next 3 turns your armor is doubled
thievery = you steal the opponents armor and wear it for the next 5 turns, but damage is lowered with 10%

a way of going against it
round 1 = blacksmith
round 2 = dent shield
round 3 = bersiker's bite
round 4 = penetrate armor
round 5 = backbreaker
round 6 = basic attack
round 7 and so on are basic attack

The battle

round 1
you highten your armor 50%
monster hits you for 1 damage, you suffer from acidic touch

monster stats= att 10k; defense 4500; damage 7000; armor 10k; hp 50k
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 10k; armor 9k, hp 149

round 2
you dented the opponents shield, defense of opponent lowered with 1000
monster hits you for 1 damage, your armor looses 50 points 'acidic touch'

monster stats= att 10k; defense 3500; damage 7000; armor 10k; hp 50k
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 10k; armor 8950, hp 148

round 3
you bite your shield damage +20% for the duration of the battle
monster hits you for 1 damage, your armor looses 50 points 'acidic touch'

monster stats= att 10k; defense 3500; damage 7000; armor 10k; hp 50k
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 12k; armor 8900, hp 147

round 4
you penetrate the opponents armor doing 1 damage and lowering the creatures armor with 75%
monster hits you for 1 damage, your armor looses 50 points 'acidic touch'

monster stats= att 10k; defense 3500; damage 7000; armor 2500; hp 49999
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 12k; armor 8850, hp 146

round 5
with unhuman strength you swing your weapon at the opponent causing 12 500 damage (2500 damage is absorbed by armor of creature)
monster hits you for 1 damage, your armor looses 50 points 'acidic touch'

monster stats= att 10k; defense 3500; damage 7000; armor 2500; hp 37499
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 12k; armor 8800, hp 145

round 6
you do 9500 damage
monster hits you for 1 damage, your armor looses 50 points 'acidic touch'

monster stats= att 10k; defense 3500; damage 7000; armor 2500; hp 27999
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 12k; armor 8750, hp 144

round 7
you do 9500 damage
monster hits you for 1 damage, your armor looses 50 points 'acidic touch'

monster stats= att 10k; defense 3500; damage 7000; armor 2500; hp 18499
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 12k; armor 8700, hp 143

round 8
you do 9500 damage
monster hits you for 1 damage, your armor looses 50 points 'acidic touch'

monster stats= att 10k; defense 3500; damage 7000; armor 2500; hp 8999
your stats = attack 4000; defense 1000; damage 12k; armor 8650, hp 142

round 9
you do 9500 damage
=> monster is killed



FEEL FREE TO DO BETTER :)
(to keep it easy I calculated the damage being always max damage, so not increasing damage means you do the buffed up amount of damage of 10k - armor of the monster)

#24 fs_coyotik

fs_coyotik
  • Guests

Posted 25 November 2009 - 18:12

Something along those lines is what I ultimately had in mind with the combat move system.

It could be done with buffs as well - restricted to self, perhaps varying in effectiveness, and having the buff would simply mean that you're allowed to use the corresponding move in combat - and some buffs could not be active at the same time.

New equipment enhancements could then act as improvements for the combat move effect, i.e. berserker enhancement would make the berserker move up to 5% (absolute) stronger.

But yes, the core of the idea is that there should be a lot of choices. It would be a serious amount of work for the developers to ensure a good balance between the various skills, and to ensure that the new creeps would be variable enough to disallow a single "optimum" strategy. Some creeps should have very dangerous enhancements, forcing the player to spend a turn or three to increase safety. Some creeps could be resistant to some combat moves, some creeps could occasionally use one or two specific combat moves themselves.

In an ideal world, when levelling up, one would spend 15 minutes on each level on research and preparation and then only 5 minutes smashing through the map, pwning the creeps with his finetuned gear. These days, it's exactly the opposite. I need one minute to switch gear and then I have to spend 20 minutes killing creeps and just checking for imp HPs. No fun, just work.

#25 Prezze

Prezze

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 771 posts

Posted 25 November 2009 - 20:10

Something along those lines is what I ultimately had in mind with the combat move system.

It could be done with buffs as well - restricted to self, perhaps varying in effectiveness, and having the buff would simply mean that you're allowed to use the corresponding move in combat - and some buffs could not be active at the same time.

New equipment enhancements could then act as improvements for the combat move effect, i.e. berserker enhancement would make the berserker move up to 5% (absolute) stronger.

But yes, the core of the idea is that there should be a lot of choices. It would be a serious amount of work for the developers to ensure a good balance between the various skills, and to ensure that the new creeps would be variable enough to disallow a single "optimum" strategy. Some creeps should have very dangerous enhancements, forcing the player to spend a turn or three to increase safety. Some creeps could be resistant to some combat moves, some creeps could occasionally use one or two specific combat moves themselves.

In an ideal world, when levelling up, one would spend 15 minutes on each level on research and preparation and then only 5 minutes smashing through the map, pwning the creeps with his finetuned gear. These days, it's exactly the opposite. I need one minute to switch gear and then I have to spend 20 minutes killing creeps and just checking for imp HPs. No fun, just work.


It'll take at the timeframe new content comes out about 8 more months before someone reaches lvl 900, so in having too reduce this work. Why not let all the players come up with moves and enhancements., discuss if they are too overpowering or to weak. They can be sorted out then, so that hcs only has to code them and implement.

For the creeps stats it'll be a different issue, however having the moves worked out will reduce the amount of time HCS needs to spend on it.

#26 fs_coyotik

fs_coyotik
  • Guests

Posted 01 December 2009 - 09:30

Bump

#27 dragon1234

dragon1234

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,287 posts
  • Badge

Posted 02 December 2009 - 06:11

so...just a variation of the arena...but you dont spend money, you spend stamina...

dragon1234 - Ranger - lv 45

NoExercise - Tank - lv 45

DragonStorage - Storage - lv 13


#28 fs_coyotik

fs_coyotik
  • Guests

Posted 02 December 2009 - 20:23

so...just a variation of the arena...but you dont spend money, you spend stamina...


Well, that would be the nicest variant - but a lot could be achieved with a few new enhancements slapped on new gear and a few new buffs.
I really believe that some new challenges are needed in levelling...

#29 fs_mcbush

fs_mcbush
  • Guests

Posted 04 December 2009 - 14:02

If you want tougher combat at your level... wear gear that is 200-300 levels below where you are fighting.

#30 Prezze

Prezze

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 771 posts

Posted 07 December 2009 - 01:58

If you want tougher combat at your level... wear gear that is 200-300 levels below where you are fighting.



not sure why it would be tougher combat, i'm still using gear that's about 50-100 lvl's lower

#31 fs_coyotik

fs_coyotik
  • Guests

Posted 11 December 2009 - 11:53

If you want tougher combat at your level... wear gear that is 200-300 levels below where you are fighting.


You're obviously missing the point here.

#32 fs_coyotik

fs_coyotik
  • Guests

Posted 25 December 2009 - 10:13

up...


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Font:
Arial | Calibri | Lucida Console | Verdana
 
Font Size:
9px | 10px | 11px | 12px | 10pt | 12pt
 
Color: