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#781 Mister Doom

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:13

Its funny to me that after about 50 pages of people whinging and moaning about the state of gvg it boils down to people trying to define a "guild". Like ya said anyone lvl25+ with 10fsp can make a guild. Thats a guild. What ever they choose to do in the guild within the rules of the game is their business. Now that those people have an opertunity to earn fsp and upgrade their characters and guilds certain people want it stopped. Partly because some people have nothing better to do than complain, partly because some people dont want players leaving their guild in search of easy fsp, partly because some people have spent alot of money on the game and begrudge other people makin profit so easily. And partly because of some misguided sense of morality and ethics where people think its "wrong" to trade rp. Like ya said, everything in this game is about making profit. And trading is 99% of it. Without doing so it wouldnt go anywhere. But HCS has decided to change GVG based on the opinions of a few that complain on the forums, same few that seems to complain about everything. So you might aswell be talking to the wall as offering an opinion on the matter because your wasting your time talking to these fools.


You're point is because it's in the rules it makes it right? It wasn't against the rules to self delevel and take your skills down with you, recently the cows have themselves noticed that this isn't right and have began the fixing process. Just because you 'can' do something doesn't make it right.

#782 ZidaneT

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:15


What a surprise, another high leveller openly lying and threatening on the forums to promote his ridiculous and nonsensical views.

I have not currently, nor have i ever, deliberately delevelled myself.

As you have now resorted to openly lying about, and indeed threatening, me in the public forums, i can only resort to escalating your blatant attempt to bring unwanted hostile attention to a support ticket.



*falls over laughing, takes a deep breath, sees the post again, repeats first action*

If I scream 'Boo!' do I get reported too? He made no threat against you. He told no lies. And your threats of reporting him for posting when you are the one resorting to name calling, slander and threats are absolutely hilarious! Thanks for the laugh today, I needed that.


Surprise surprise, guess who showed up with yet more nonsense. you really should go and read the thread in its entiriy, instead of just randomly posting with no other intention that to try to start a flamewar.

Some of us are posting real valid points, and it simply appears that there are a number of people who are quite simply only posting here to engage in a personal attack and disrupt the discussion.

#783 tsink20

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:18


What a surprise, another high leveller openly lying and threatening on the forums to promote his ridiculous and nonsensical views.

I have not currently, nor have i ever, deliberately delevelled myself.

As you have now resorted to openly lying about, and indeed threatening, me in the public forums, i can only resort to escalating your blatant attempt to bring unwanted hostile attention to a support ticket.



*falls over laughing, takes a deep breath, sees the post again, repeats first action*

If I scream 'Boo!' do I get reported too? He made no threat against you. He told no lies. And your threats of reporting him for posting when you are the one resorting to name calling, slander and threats are absolutely hilarious! Thanks for the laugh today, I needed that.


Surprise surprise, guess who showed up with yet more nonsense. you really should go and read the thread in its entiriy, instead of just randomly posting with no other intention that to try to start a flamewar.

Some of us are posting real valid points, and it simply appears that there are a number of people who are quite simply only posting here to engage in a personal attack and disrupt the discussion.


There are certainly valid posts in this thread. Unfortunately, you have not made any of them.

#784 Mister Doom

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:20

Ehe

#785 ZidaneT

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:21

Silly billy? LOL Really? Thats the name calling? No thats fair enough, yeah I guess calling you a silly billy after you basically called me a selfish idiot in your first post was completely out of order. Now, would you care to tell me how one person can actually be called a guild? I'm sure you have seen the post which gives you the definition of the word 'guild' but I think you probably spouted some nonsense in your response. Now if you can get your head around the idea that a one man guild isn't even a 'guild' then you will see why your ranting about the other activities guilds can partake in is irrelevant, then maybe we can take this conversation further.


Guild: IRC.

One person, solo guild.... See, here's the thing, whether or not your guild is one man or a hundred, it's still a guild, and all you're trying to do now is suggest that somehow, the people in small guilds, don't have as much say as you.... that's a slippery road i'd rather not go down.

#786 levy1977

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:22

Stuff and more stuff


I would like to ask a favor from you. instead of charging into a 50+ page thread and insulting everyone, could you do this game a favor and read through the suggestions, and come back after you have, then give some insightful reasons as to what should be a better way of life in this game.. something that is fair for everyone?

I too was upset, very much like you, about having to lose some advantages that I learned, but what is best for the game, is often not what is best for an individual. I will have much more to lose then you, do you see me complaining? And please, do not bring back complaints I made days ago, im talking about a valid argument on both sides as to who is going to lose what, and in the end, the game will be fair. You throwing insults only discredits your ability to make valid points. If you lose the EMOTIONS you will gain some perspective.

#787 Mister Doom

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:25

Silly billy? LOL Really? Thats the name calling? No thats fair enough, yeah I guess calling you a silly billy after you basically called me a selfish idiot in your first post was completely out of order. Now, would you care to tell me how one person can actually be called a guild? I'm sure you have seen the post which gives you the definition of the word 'guild' but I think you probably spouted some nonsense in your response. Now if you can get your head around the idea that a one man guild isn't even a 'guild' then you will see why your ranting about the other activities guilds can partake in is irrelevant, then maybe we can take this conversation further.


Guild: IRC.

One person, solo guild.... See, here's the thing, whether or not your guild is one man or a hundred, it's still a guild, and all you're trying to do now is suggest that somehow, the people in small guilds, don't have as much say as you.... that's a slippery road i'd rather not go down.


You're posts are getting quite funny tbh.. Show me where I mentioned small guilds, show me where I inferred that they don't have a say. I think you'll find that you can't, no what I am saying is all about one man guilds, and my primary point is they aren't a true 'guild' hence they shouldn't be able to engage in GUILD versus GUILD conflicts. What a one man guild does is essentially PvP with GvG rewards.

#788 Mister Doom

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:26

Stuff and more stuff


I would like to ask a favor from you. instead of charging into a 50+ page thread and insulting everyone, could you do this game a favor and read through the suggestions, and come back after you have, then give some insightful reasons as to what should be a better way of life in this game.. something that is fair for everyone?

I too was upset, very much like you, about having to lose some advantages that I learned, but what is best for the game, is often not what is best for an individual. I will have much more to lose then you, do you see me complaining? And please, do not bring but complaints I made days ago, im talking about a valid argument on both sides as to who is going to lose what, and in the end, the game will be fair. You throwing insults only discredits your ability to make valid points.
Lose the EMOTIONS and gain some perspective.


Wow I really did shock some sense into you huh Levy? lol Can you leave this guy alone though? His stupidity is entertaining me..

#789 BalianRW

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:26

[quote name="ZidaneT"][quote name="BalianRW"][quote name="ZidaneT"] . . .The only difference is that solo guilds may, on occasion, be able to complete their attacks quicker.
[/quote]

on occasion? Try every time, and add A LOT quicker[/quote]
And how, exactly, does this prevent you from retaliating? it doesnt, it confers no advantage, other than completing the attacks quicker. You still have time to complete your attacks, and you are still able to attack back... seriously, what on earth is the issue?[/quote]

1) They get to pick the time of the attack (i.e. when the fewest number of members (or in may cases no one) in the opposing guild is on
2) They have the ability to attack multiple targets completing all 50 attacks before the defending guild has a chance to get any decent buffs in place (assuming anyone gets on in the 10-20 minutes required to complete the 50 attacks).
3) The only have one member with which to cast defensive buffs on, rather than the many that the attacker could be possibly attacking.
4) The defender is only allowed to attack back with one person against ONE target.
5) Given a decent deflect (which any solo guild GvGer would ALWAYS have on) this would cause the defending guilds single participant to take hours (4-5) to complete the 50 attacks, during which time multiple castings of buffs would be required.
6) Giving the extra long time frame of the return attacks the attacking solo-guild would have multiple opportunities to get on and change gear and buffs, an opportunity the defending guild did not have and an extra obstacle to the defending guild that the attacking guild did not have to contend with.

[quote name="ZidaneT"][quote name="BalianRW"][quote name="ZidaneT"]
now, please explain to me why we should continue to allow SE hunting, as a 40 person guild clearly has an advantage over a solo guild
[/quote]

Not following you here. SE hunting is about a 1 on 1 as you can get. No guild involved there.[/quote]
By being in a guild, you effectively have multiple eyes. everyone levelling has the chance to run into an SE, and if you're in a solo guild, that's only one person, if you're in a 40+ guild, that's 40+ people. bigger guilds have a massive advantage through numbers. [/quote]

In my over a year in this game, most of which in decent size guilds, members of our guild have encountered a total of 6 or 7 SEs, and in every case those happened when those in the guild that could take them on, were not on at the time, so thus the locations were sold and the member (not the guild) got a little something for it. I think you over estimate how much "guilds" get by finding their own SE.

[quote name="ZidaneT"][quote name="BalianRW"][quote name="ZidaneT"]
Tell me, what, exactly, gives you the right to decide that your guild can do something for profit and nobody else can?
[/quote]

No one is saying that any guild should be giving opportunities that other guilds don't have. But the problem lies in what IS a guild. According to the dictionary a guild is:

1. an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., esp. one formed for mutual aid or protection.
2. any of various medieval associations, as of merchants or artisans, organized to maintain standards and to protect the interests of its members, and that sometimes constituted a local governing body.

Take your pick. The point being that it is more then one person. In all practical purposes A LOT more than one person.[/quote]

The dictionary definition of a warrior is someone who engages in physical combat, but i don't see many shamblers leaping through my window.....

Try and tie it up in semantics all you like, some people just like playing solo. They should not be punished just because they don't want to be your friend.

[/quote]

Is that really the best you can some up with. Semantics? Like when you tried to through this statement at us

[quote name="ZidaneT"]
.... people can play solo. in fact, anyone over lvl25 with a few fsp can go make a solo guild....
[/quote]

Also, no one is trying to "punish" anyone because they "dont' want to be your friend" Simply that if they are not going to be in an acutal guild then they should not get the benefits.

[quote name="ZidaneT"][quote name="BalianRW"][quote name="ZidaneT"]
I guess this is a prime example of just another high level player crying because other people might be catching up....[/quote]

I don't think that being 1/2 way through the current content makes me a high level player, and I am pretty much in the same opinion as Shardoom.

Now on the subject of actually trying to make suggestions to fix the problem/issue. Here is a suggestion that I don't think has ever been proposed. Have the "set" participation limit apply to the attacker only. Allow the defender to attack with the max number of participants allowed as per their upgrades etc.[/quote]

Or, much better, just deal with the fact that the *only* advantage is that solo guilds get to attack quicker.... they get no other advantage, other than not having to wait as long....

seriously, i am amazed that so many people are up in arms about what is essentially a non-issue. I'm not surprised to see the usual high-levellers in here trying to keep their advantage, but when it resorts to lies and threats, things have gone too far.

So, one guy gets to attack quicker, in a gvg.... and that's it? seriously, you guys need to relax a little, it's not that big of a deal.[/quote]


Since there is no real advantage for being a solo guild (according to you), then rather than arguing so hard to keep things the way they are, why don't you just add several more members to your guild and go on about your merry way?

Have you ever really tried to complete a 50 attack GvG against a single opponent who has deflect, a high level dark curse, force shield, last ditch, constitution, etc active the entire time? Maybe you should before you go much further. It will give you a much better understanding of the REAL "Advantage" that a solo guild has.

#790 dazriel

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:27

You're point is because it's in the rules it makes it right? It wasn't against the rules to self delevel and take your skills down with you, recently the cows have themselves noticed that this isn't right and have began the fixing process. Just because you 'can' do something doesn't make it right.



Its this whole right and wrong thing I'm having trouble with. Its a game, so anything that is allowed is right.Anything that aint allowed is wrong. You cant have a game dictated by peoples morals it needs strictly defined rules and one man guilds farming RP is within those strictly defined rules. Changing it to suit a minority simply because they see it at morally wrong is stupid.

#791 Mister Doom

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:29



You're point is because it's in the rules it makes it right? It wasn't against the rules to self delevel and take your skills down with you, recently the cows have themselves noticed that this isn't right and have began the fixing process. Just because you 'can' do something doesn't make it right.



Its this whole right and wrong thing I'm having trouble with. Its a game, so anything that is allowed is right.Anything that aint allowed is wrong. You cant have a game dictated by peoples morals it needs strictly defined rules and one man guilds farming RP is within those strictly defined rules. Changing it to suit a minority simply because they see it at morally wrong is stupid.


Changing it to suit a minority? Erm, come again?

#792 levy1977

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:31

Guild: IRC.

One person, solo guild.... See, here's the thing, whether or not your guild is one man or a hundred, it's still a guild, and all you're trying to do now is suggest that somehow, the people in small guilds, don't have as much say as you.... that's a slippery road i'd rather not go down.


I never said a solo guild has no say in anything.. I said a SOLO GUILD should never be able to ambush a larger guild in 2min and sit back with deflect on knowing it will take HOURS for returned hits..

I also said:

"You want to benefit from a small guild? then you pay the price, you have 1 member, then you are only allowed to hit 1 member... 2vs2 and 3vs3 10vs10.. 124vs124
If you want balance, this is the only way to make it balanced. Fair is Fair, you should not start a solo guild and pillage a guild the size of Texas in 2-3min flat.. you should suffer the same as those you attacked. There should be no switching targets either, once you have locked in , that target you hit, is now your locked target and you gotta deal with sets being changed and buffs.. "


#793 dazriel

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:32



You're point is because it's in the rules it makes it right? It wasn't against the rules to self delevel and take your skills down with you, recently the cows have themselves noticed that this isn't right and have began the fixing process. Just because you 'can' do something doesn't make it right.



Its this whole right and wrong thing I'm having trouble with. Its a game, so anything that is allowed is right.Anything that aint allowed is wrong. You cant have a game dictated by peoples morals it needs strictly defined rules and one man guilds farming RP is within those strictly defined rules. Changing it to suit a minority simply because they see it at morally wrong is stupid.


Changing it to suit a minority? Erm, come again?



Count how many people that have posted in this thread wanting the change. Then look at the amount of people that are currently online. Just because they dont come to the forum and offer an opinion doesnt mean those that do can dictate changes to the game. Hence "minority".

#794 ZidaneT

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:33

Stuff and more stuff


I would like to ask a favor from you. instead of charging into a 50+ page thread and insulting everyone, could you do this game a favor and read through the suggestions, and come back after you have, then give some insightful reasons as to what should be a better way of life in this game.. something that is fair for everyone?

I too was upset, very much like you, about having to lose some advantages that I learned, but what is best for the game, is often not what is best for an individual. I will have much more to lose then you, do you see me complaining? And please, do not bring back complaints I made days ago, im talking about a valid argument on both sides as to who is going to lose what, and in the end, the game will be fair. You throwing insults only discredits your ability to make valid points. If you lose the EMOTIONS you will gain some perspective.


*gasp* a considered and well thought out response! a reply is demanded!

I'm not upset, i am forcefull in my opinions, it's a common mistake, i do understand my communication could occasionally be refined.

Whilst i do agree entirely with your point, the game is for the masses, not the individual, i have yet to have anyone explain to me with any success as to why this is such a big deal that a very insulting minority repeatedly claim it to be. Hell, i don't even *do* gvg, but i simply don't want my solo guild to be hampered any more than it allready is, incase i want to in the future.

I'm not going to bother going hunting through days and days of thread just to find a single mis-spoken word.

As for something that is fair for the game, ok, i suggest again that the solo guilds have exactly the same ability to gvg as the larger guilds. by making things exactly the same, it is fair for all. This is exactly what we have now, and a very small, but vocal, minority are trying to enforce "bigger guilds get more than everyone else" which is certainly far from fair.

I'm not upset, i just speak my mind, and in this case, my opinion does not match a small subset of very high level players. That's what the forum is for, considered posts such as yours, but it's also for replies, and those replies may not agree with you.

#795 BalianRW

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:34



You're point is because it's in the rules it makes it right? It wasn't against the rules to self delevel and take your skills down with you, recently the cows have themselves noticed that this isn't right and have began the fixing process. Just because you 'can' do something doesn't make it right.



Its this whole right and wrong thing I'm having trouble with. Its a game, so anything that is allowed is right.Anything that aint allowed is wrong. You cant have a game dictated by peoples morals it needs strictly defined rules and one man guilds farming RP is within those strictly defined rules. Changing it to suit a minority simply because they see it at morally wrong is stupid.


True to a point. However some rules/mechanics when initially put in place, allowed for loopholes and other unforeseen consequences. These that are deemed detrimental to the game get changed. Consider the US constitution if it were perfect then there never would have been the need for ANY amendments, yet we have 26 such amendments.

No one is suggesting (at least that I have seen) that anyone is doing anything that is illegal in the game, but simply that certain loopholes have been exploited that are being detrimental/unbalancing to the game the need to be address.

#796 levy1977

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:35



You're point is because it's in the rules it makes it right? It wasn't against the rules to self delevel and take your skills down with you, recently the cows have themselves noticed that this isn't right and have began the fixing process. Just because you 'can' do something doesn't make it right.



Its this whole right and wrong thing I'm having trouble with. Its a game, so anything that is allowed is right.Anything that aint allowed is wrong. You cant have a game dictated by peoples morals it needs strictly defined rules and one man guilds farming RP is within those strictly defined rules. Changing it to suit a minority simply because they see it at morally wrong is stupid.


Nobody disagrees with what you just said.. we are trying to make tomorrows game fair.. todays game, have fun, go farm it while its there. there is no rules being broken.. but tomorrow there will be rules, and a fair game play, and no ambushes.. hope that helps you see whats being spoken about.

#797 Mister Doom

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:36

Count how many people that have posted in this thread wanting the change. Then look at the amount of people that are currently online. Just because they dont come to the forum and offer an opinion doesnt mean those that do can dictate changes to the game. Hence "minority".


Yeah, you kinda have that backwards though. Mostly people are against one man GvG guilds, they just don't come on the forum and argue because generally those that have something to lose argue vehemently.. Take a look at Levy, until recently he was arguing till he was blue in the face to defend his advantage. Mostly people just can't be bothered to deal with the hassle, it doesn't mean 'Pro one man GvG' people are in the majority though. It simply means they moan louder.

#798 Mister Doom

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:38

Ehe sorry Levy, you're just the best example, again. ;)

#799 BalianRW

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:38

Stuff and more stuff


I would like to ask a favor from you. instead of charging into a 50+ page thread and insulting everyone, could you do this game a favor and read through the suggestions, and come back after you have, then give some insightful reasons as to what should be a better way of life in this game.. something that is fair for everyone?

I too was upset, very much like you, about having to lose some advantages that I learned, but what is best for the game, is often not what is best for an individual. I will have much more to lose then you, do you see me complaining? And please, do not bring back complaints I made days ago, im talking about a valid argument on both sides as to who is going to lose what, and in the end, the game will be fair. You throwing insults only discredits your ability to make valid points. If you lose the EMOTIONS you will gain some perspective.


*gasp* a considered and well thought out response! a reply is demanded!

I'm not upset, i am forcefull in my opinions, it's a common mistake, i do understand my communication could occasionally be refined.

Whilst i do agree entirely with your point, the game is for the masses, not the individual, i have yet to have anyone explain to me with any success as to why this is such a big deal that a very insulting minority repeatedly claim it to be. Hell, i don't even *do* gvg, but i simply don't want my solo guild to be hampered any more than it allready is, incase i want to in the future.

I'm not going to bother going hunting through days and days of thread just to find a single mis-spoken word.

As for something that is fair for the game, ok, i suggest again that the solo guilds have exactly the same ability to gvg as the larger guilds. by making things exactly the same, it is fair for all. This is exactly what we have now, and a very small, but vocal, minority are trying to enforce "bigger guilds get more than everyone else" which is certainly far from fair.

I'm not upset, i just speak my mind, and in this case, my opinion does not match a small subset of very high level players. That's what the forum is for, considered posts such as yours, but it's also for replies, and those replies may not agree with you.


To make it "fair" for all guilds, then what about adjusting the time between attacks based on the size of the guild. For say guilds of 1-5 members, cause their time to be 10 minutes between attacks, for 5-25, make it 6 minutes, for 25-50, make it 4 minutes and for 50+ make it 2 minutes. That would even the playing field.

#800 stormfish

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 19:41

1) They get to pick the time of the attack (i.e. when the fewest number of members (or in may cases no one) in the opposing guild is on
2) They have the ability to attack multiple targets completing all 50 attacks before the defending guild has a chance to get any decent buffs in place (assuming anyone gets on in the 10-20 minutes required to complete the 50 attacks).
3) The only have one member with which to cast defensive buffs on, rather than the many that the attacker could be possibly attacking.
4) The defender is only allowed to attack back with one person against ONE target.
5) Given a decent deflect (which any solo guild GvGer would ALWAYS have on) this would cause the defending guilds single participant to take hours (4-5) to complete the 50 attacks, during which time multiple castings of buffs would be required.
6) Giving the extra long time frame of the return attacks the attacking solo-guild would have multiple opportunities to get on and change gear and buffs, an opportunity the defending guild did not have and an extra obstacle to the defending guild that the attacking guild did not have to contend with.


Guild X have 50 players and guild Y have 50 players. One player from X start GVG against Y and choice time (more people are off), targets and own buffs. Attack 10 target players from Y and finish conflict for 10 minutes. Switch his def set and end. What do you think?


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