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Holy Flame damage bonus ...


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#1 fs_tangtop

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 20:34

I went searching but could not find the post ...

Back when I started coding for the helper, I found a post that had lots of analysis from players that the HF bonus is applied after armor has been removed (i.e. (damage - armor) * HF factor). Anyone care to comment, or have links to old posts regarding this?

#2 Khanate

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 22:55

As in... only applies on the damage done to HP rather than that of the attacker? Makes sense

#3 BalianRW

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 23:23

As in... only applies on the damage done to HP rather than that of the attacker? Makes sense


If this is the case then the description needs a change because it reads just like DD and CA, with no mention of armor. I've always taken it as a buff that kicks in when you are around undead, kinda like an Elven Sword glowing blue when Orcs are around (ala Lord of the Rings).

Does anyone know definitely?

#4 Mister Doom

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 23:28

"+0.2% extra damage vs. undead per point."

Sounds pretty straightforward to me? It's like a 17.5% DD.

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#5 BandLaw

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 23:32

Maybe somebody could submit a support ticket and get an answer? Hoof really ought to give his (or a team member's) cell # to tangtop :-) (or at least a direct line of contact).

#6 Mistle

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 00:14

To answer the OP's question - I can confirm that HF is indeed applied after armor, by the formula you gave, so eg. 2000 damage vs 1000 armor becomes 1000 damage to monster's hp + 35% = 1350 final damage (not 1700).

Edit: HF bonus is 0.2% per point, not 0.1%... :oops:

#7 fs_tangtop

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 01:19

To answer the OP's question - I can confirm that HF is indeed applied after armor, by the formula you gave, so eg. 2000 damage vs 1000 armor becomes 1000 damage to monster's hp + 17.5% = 1175 final damage (not 1350).

Thanks Mistle ... I knew I wasn't going crazy and remember that substantial testing had been done on it.

#8 BalianRW

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 01:50

To answer the OP's question - I can confirm that HF is indeed applied after armor, by the formula you gave, so eg. 2000 damage vs 1000 armor becomes 1000 damage to monster's hp + 17.5% = 1175 final damage (not 1350).


Ok, I'm still confused. What you are saying is that it is applied to what ever damage gets through armor correct. That would be AFTER CA and DD effects had been added. So lets say you had CA100 (+25%) and DD with a full 20% benefit. That would bring your damage up to:

2900 [2000 + 400 (from DD) + 500 (from CA100)]

Then if we subtract the 1000 armor that brings us down to 1900 and then we apply the 35% bonus from HF 175 to that giving us a bonus of 665 (as opposed to 700 had it been calculated based on the 2000). However if the armor were say 750 instead of 1000, then your HF bonus would be 752.5,

2900(damage with DD, and CA100) - 750(armor) = 2150

.35 * 2150 = 752.5

which is greater than it would have been had it been only applied to the 2000. Thus against Undead the CA buffs can have a double effect.

1) The direct effect of the buff
2) The added benefit to the HF bonus since the higher the CA level the more damage that will get through armor.

I will leave my FSH on tomorrow when I hunt so that it will record combat logs, just to verify.

#9 Mistle

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 11:46

What you are saying is that it is applied to what ever damage gets through armor correct. That would be AFTER CA and DD effects had been added....

When we tested HF in practice, there was no CA or DD, but as far as I'm concerned, the HF bonus is applied after CA and DD. However, the difference between the numbers is relatively very small. The rules are: (1) the less armor a creature has, the bigger the bonus, (2) the higher the CA level, the bigger the difference due to calculation order, (3) there are minor diminishing returns the higher the CA level is vs previous level of CA.

It's all theory anyway, since there's no such thing as "no DD setup", you always use the buff - in practice, there's no "HF after or before DD" argument. Here are some calculations on how CA being added affects the damage.


For example, let's take a sample hunting setup vs level 860 creature, which has ~4,200 armor and ~18,400 hit points:
- no DD, no CA: 16,359 "base" damage, HF 175 increases damage to "final" 20,612 (26% increase of damage done; not enough to 1-hit, since you need to do 22,600)
- DD 20%, no CA: 19,631, after HF 25,029 (27.49%, easy 1-hit)
- DD 20%, CA 25: 20,654, after HF 26,409 (27.86%) - 0.37% difference vs just DD
- DD 20%, CA 50: 21,676, after HF 27,789 (28.2%) - 0.71% (0.34 added vs previous level of CA)

Just for kicks, since there's never a point of using CA greater than 50 during a normal hunt:
- DD 20%, CA 75: 22,698, after HF 29,170 (28.51%) - 1.02% (0.31)
- DD 20%, CA 100: 23,721, after HF 30,550 (28.79%) - 1.3% (0.28)
- DD 20%, CA 125: 24,743, after HF 31,930 (29.05%) - 1.56% (0.26)
- DD 20%, CA 150: 25,766, after HF 33,311 (29.28%) - 1.79% (0.23)
- DD 20%, CA 175: 26,788, after HF 34,691 (29.5%) - 2.01% (0.22)


Basic calculation again if the same creature had 1000 armor:
- no DD, no CA: 16,359, after HF 21,735 (32.86%)
- DD 20%, no CA: 19,631, after HF 26,152 (33.22%)
- DD 20%, CA 25: 20,654, after HF 26,409 (33.3%) - 0.08%
- DD 20%, CA 50: 21,676, after HF 28,913 (33.39%) - 0.17% (0.09)


If the same creature had no armor (eg. Spectral Knight kicks in):
- no DD, no CA: 16,359, after HF 22,035 ("pure" 35% bonus)
- DD 20%, no CA: 19,631, after HF 26,502 (35%)
- DD 20%, CA 25: 20,654, after HF 27,883 (35%)
- DD 20%, CA 50: 21,676, after HF 29,263 (35%)

Obviously, no difference if there's no armor at all.

#10 fs_robotussin

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 13:14

To answer the OP's question - I can confirm that HF is indeed applied after armor, by the formula you gave, so eg. 2000 damage vs 1000 armor becomes 1000 damage to monster's hp + 35% = 1350 final damage (not 1700).

Edit: HF bonus is 0.2% per point, not 0.1%... :oops:


This is indeed my experience with HF, too. (As well as the other damage enhancements)

#11 BalianRW

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 14:59

To answer the OP's question - I can confirm that HF is indeed applied after armor, by the formula you gave, so eg. 2000 damage vs 1000 armor becomes 1000 damage to monster's hp + 35% = 1350 final damage (not 1700).

Edit: HF bonus is 0.2% per point, not 0.1%... :oops:


This is indeed my experience with HF, too. (As well as the other damage enhancements)


What do you mean by "other damage enhancements". Are you suggesting that CA and DD only apply to what get's through armor as well?

#12 fs_deljzc

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 15:47

I asked this question a long time ago and got the same confusing answers.

In my experience the damage boosters all stack right onto your final listed Damage score in your bio after you use EW, EA, Fury and Berserk.

So if you score is 6000 damage listed in your bio and you use Death Dealer (20%), Counter Attack (say 25%) and Holy Flame (30%)... you final damage score is as follows:

6000 * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.3 = 11,700 damage.


At one point I was overthinking it and thought the order of the "math" was important and whether or not the bonuses applied before or after the Armor of the target was subtracted, but in my experience it doesn't work like that.

It is very simple.

I don't use the helper at all either. I calculate all my own "required" damage to 1-hit and use the math above to figure damage and I've never had a major issue or been wrong during a hunt.

#13 sweetlou

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 16:02

The rules are: (1) the less armor a creature has, the bigger the bonus, (2) the higher the CA level, the bigger the difference due to calculation order, (3) there are minor diminishing returns the higher the CA level is vs previous level of CA.

It's all theory anyway, since there's no such thing as "no DD setup", you always use the buff - in practice, there's no "HF after or before DD" argument. Here are some calculations on how CA being added affects the damage.

Obviously, no difference if there's no armor at all.

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#14 BalianRW

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 16:32

I asked this question a long time ago and got the same confusing answers.

In my experience the damage boosters all stack right onto your final listed Damage score in your bio after you use EW, EA, Fury and Berserk.

So if you score is 6000 damage listed in your bio and you use Death Dealer (20%), Counter Attack (say 25%) and Holy Flame (30%)... you final damage score is as follows:

6000 * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.3 = 11,700 damage.


At one point I was overthinking it and thought the order of the "math" was important and whether or not the bonuses applied before or after the Armor of the target was subtracted, but in my experience it doesn't work like that.

It is very simple.

I don't use the helper at all either. I calculate all my own "required" damage to 1-hit and use the math above to figure damage and I've never had a major issue or been wrong during a hunt.


I do my own calculations as well, which is partly why I am very intersted in the answer here. However I have always added the bonuses together (which will always produce a lower result) rather than a sequence of multiplications. i.e.

6000 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25 + 0.3) = 10500 damage.

#15 fs_deljzc

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 19:04

I asked this question a long time ago and got the same confusing answers.

In my experience the damage boosters all stack right onto your final listed Damage score in your bio after you use EW, EA, Fury and Berserk.

So if you score is 6000 damage listed in your bio and you use Death Dealer (20%), Counter Attack (say 25%) and Holy Flame (30%)... you final damage score is as follows:

6000 * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.3 = 11,700 damage.


At one point I was overthinking it and thought the order of the "math" was important and whether or not the bonuses applied before or after the Armor of the target was subtracted, but in my experience it doesn't work like that.

It is very simple.

I don't use the helper at all either. I calculate all my own "required" damage to 1-hit and use the math above to figure damage and I've never had a major issue or been wrong during a hunt.


I do my own calculations as well, which is partly why I am very intersted in the answer here. However I have always added the bonuses together (which will always produce a lower result) rather than a sequence of multiplications. i.e.

6000 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25 + 0.3) = 10500 damage.


I used to think this as well (and was confused if order mattered), but there is a guy in my guild that is like some Russian Mathematical genius and he said no way.

After running through the numbers, he's right.

I know for CERTAIN, applying death dealer and counter attack is 6000 * 1.2 * 1.25 and NOT 6000 * 1.45. You can prove that with just running the numbers yourself and seeing if you one-hit or not.

As I get higher level and the damage I need to one-hit keeps going up, I know this formula is correct because the 5% difference would be noticable when I hunt. I mean currently I'm in the 8500-9500 range of damage before I start hunting so the difference between one formula and the other is almost 500 damage.

#16 Mister Doom

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 19:37

I asked this question a long time ago and got the same confusing answers.

In my experience the damage boosters all stack right onto your final listed Damage score in your bio after you use EW, EA, Fury and Berserk.

So if you score is 6000 damage listed in your bio and you use Death Dealer (20%), Counter Attack (say 25%) and Holy Flame (30%)... you final damage score is as follows:

6000 * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.3 = 11,700 damage.


At one point I was overthinking it and thought the order of the "math" was important and whether or not the bonuses applied before or after the Armor of the target was subtracted, but in my experience it doesn't work like that.

It is very simple.

I don't use the helper at all either. I calculate all my own "required" damage to 1-hit and use the math above to figure damage and I've never had a major issue or been wrong during a hunt.


I do my own calculations as well, which is partly why I am very intersted in the answer here. However I have always added the bonuses together (which will always produce a lower result) rather than a sequence of multiplications. i.e.

6000 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25 + 0.3) = 10500 damage.


Yeah, this is how the bonuses work.

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#17 fs_robotussin

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 20:18

@BalainRW

Other damage ENHANCEMENTS are greeskin slayer, oceanic, holy, etc. These get applied after armor. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

#18 BalianRW

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 20:44

@BalainRW

Other damage ENHANCEMENTS are greeskin slayer, oceanic, holy, etc. These get applied after armor. Sorry I wasn't more clear.


Ah yes, since they don't have buffs and are only enhancement, I always forget bout greenskin slayer, oceanic, etc.

#19 BalianRW

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 21:03

I used to think this as well (and was confused if order mattered), but there is a guy in my guild that is like some Russian Mathematical genius and he said no way.

After running through the numbers, he's right.

I know for CERTAIN, applying death dealer and counter attack is 6000 * 1.2 * 1.25 and NOT 6000 * 1.45. You can prove that with just running the numbers yourself and seeing if you one-hit or not.

As I get higher level and the damage I need to one-hit keeps going up, I know this formula is correct because the 5% difference would be noticable when I hunt. I mean currently I'm in the 8500-9500 range of damage before I start hunting so the difference between one formula and the other is almost 500 damage.


Did your guild mate also make a determination about HF, whether it was applied before or after armor?


6000 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25 + 0.3) = 10500 damage.


Yeah, this is how the bonuses work.


So is looks like we have four different possibilities as follows with DD bonus of 20%, CA bonus of 25% HF bonus of 30% and a creature armor of 2000.


1) DD, CA, and HF %bonuses added then multiplied by damage
6000 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25 + 0.3) = 10500

2) DD and CA % bonuses added then multiplied by damage then apply HF after armor
[6000 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25)] - 2000] * 1.3 = 8710

3) DD, CA, and HF % bonuses multiplied sequentially
6000 * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.3 = 11700

4) DD and CA %bonuses multiplied sequentially then HF bonus applied after armor.
[(6000 * 1.2 * 1.25) - 2000] * 1.3 = 9100

Different people thinks that a different calculation is correct with out a doubt. Unfortunately only one of them can be correct, and I don't think we are going to settle anything here by debating it. Only a message from the cows themselves could settle it, and for some that still might not be good enough. I think what we should do is each of us during our next hunt collect some data, (for those of us using FSH we could leave it on for at least some of the combats) and see which calculation seems to be correct, then we can report our findings back here. I am scheduled to hunt tonight so I will do exactly that. I will be hunting with HF as I will be against undead.

#20 Mister Doom

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 21:07

My money is on scenario #2 :)

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