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#1181 fs_sollimaw

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 18:40

Cut the stats on the item in half and it is still Epic for a very very long time.

#1182 fs_gravely

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 18:45

TKP system Grave, no more monopolies, remember? Just needs some effort.


And time. None of the other titan epics, with the exception of the grasp, have much individual impact on the arena; back when the grasp was the "MUST HAVE" item, oggies were spawning left and right, remember? There was only two titans back then - Fuva and Oggy. Now there's 10, AND TKP, and a reduced spawn rate.

Bad, bad confluence of circumstances. If the item wasn't a huge win button, if it could enter the game at a reasonable rate, if TKP wasn't something that took weeks to generate an item (good in most cases, bad in this one) then it wouldn't be a problem.

But all those things are true, not false.

#1183 MaximusGR

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 18:46

Cut the stats on the item in half and it is still Epic for a very very long time.



:shock: It didnt happen with Oggy gloves, Writhing Ward or Skally boots and they had similarly high impact when first introduced..Why start now?

Overpowered items is how things work now, a low, sub-100 level guy with few resorces, coming from a small guild asked me about starting in the arena..I had no choice but to tell him not to bother when others have all the shiny sets available to them and wait for higher levels.

I wont argue that the set is a WIN key, its something everyone has access to though as long as Squids keep spawning at a decent rate..Plus, with 2 or more items around it will stop being so powerful.

#1184 fs_sollimaw

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 18:53

Oggy does not overpower everything for 200 levels. Yes some of the epic weapons do, but that really shouldn't be the intelligent model to follow...

#1185 MaximusGR

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 19:13

TKP system Grave, no more monopolies, remember? Just needs some effort.


And time. None of the other titan epics, with the exception of the grasp, have much individual impact on the arena; back when the grasp was the "MUST HAVE" item, oggies were spawning left and right, remember? There was only two titans back then - Fuva and Oggy. Now there's 10, AND TKP, and a reduced spawn rate.

Bad, bad confluence of circumstances. If the item wasn't a huge win button, if it could enter the game at a reasonable rate, if TKP wasn't something that took weeks to generate an item (good in most cases, bad in this one) then it wouldn't be a problem.

But all those things are true, not false.



The Titans are 6, not 10..Squiddy, Oggy, Skally, Spin, Tsuki and Colossus..The ones with a drop at least..Look at every one of the drops..When they were introduced, they had an overwhelming effect in leveling setups and, in the case of Oggy and Skally, a very big change in many of the arena players setups to either use them or to beat them..Circumstances also included a much lower volume of tournaments, therefore the WIN key was applicable in less occasions than now. Since the game evolves though and Arena and Titan rewards are such, we have to see effects as consequences, not problems..

The Squid drop is not overwhelming in leveling therefore, by default, it should make a difference in another area of the game to motivate hunters..Thats the Arena, and secondarily GvG ( very long-term). If even now people see no reason to come hunt a Titan, when will they?

#1186 MaximusGR

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 19:25

Oggy does not overpower everything for 200 levels. Yes some of the epic weapons do, but that really shouldn't be the intelligent model to follow...


It does for 150 levels and its the same case with all other Epics, thats why they are called Epic anyway. Well until some other set comes and nullifies them, lol

#1187 fs_gravely

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 19:27

The elemental titans take up a spawn, therefore they are a "titan" for the purposes of what is generated. Fuva has never had a major impact on leveling; anyone willing to invest in crystalline has always had access to better damage than it manages. The mace, well, heh. Tsuki may have been king for a while, but it's now beaten by Yojimbo, and was beaten by Ormarr before the elemental trident came out. Skally, yes. Skally is quite good for leveling and will probably always be good for leveling.

Your point about the drop being worth something so that people will hunt the titan is well taken; however, having a counter produced soon is the reason I made the post that started this discussion. Having a really good arena item is fine and dandy - having one with no counter is another, that's all I'm saying.

#1188 MaximusGR

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 19:49

Your point about the drop being worth something so that people will hunt the titan is well taken; however, having a counter produced soon is the reason I made the post that started this discussion. Having a really good arena item is fine and dandy - having one with no counter is another, that's all I'm saying.



Those 2 points are cancelling each other out..If a drop worth thousands of stamina can be countered by existing items, why go after it or pay for it at all? Players would keep to the counter-setup since the Epic, in your logic, would not make an impact.

Look, i am not saying the way things run is the smoothest..But the game needs 'must-have' items, it helsp cows pay bills and players enhance game-play. If you look at this and older arena topics you ll see why we have come down to this part. Everyone giving ideas according to how his profits will be served. Giving feedback on their way the arena should be running. Declaring sets useful if they hand out easy wins or useless if they are just one more option. BigGrim, with all good intention has been listening closely to feedback, therefore the sad state of the arena now is more our fault than HCS's. We WANTED an item like that amulet.

Oh and since i started from setups not having counters, Abrafos and Gideons both caused that when released, everyone adapted and it became a crapshoot..Arena was flowing very well, therefore just another type of 1-setup winning does not affect it as dramatically as being outlined.

#1189 fs_gravely

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 19:53

So let's just allow 5 or 6 players to run roughshod over that range in the arena. Everything's fine, nothing to see here. :roll:

Max, there's a problem here. You're just having fun muddying the waters now.

#1190 fs_moxcyn

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 22:20

As someone who has no plans to go above level 35 (if you see me above it it's because my xp gain is maxed and i can't turn it off) - i think my opinion is unbiased because i don't care if it exist or not =)

At the lower levels - there's very few sets that can even compete in the arena. When i competed in the level 300+ arena, i could LITERALLY win with a bunch of random unforged common items/unique sets. But down here - It's not uncommon for the winner of each arena to be always wearing the same setup EVERYTIME (see arenas in the 25-38 range).

That's just the way it's going to be with the levels this amulet is involved with at the moment.

I understand that the argument is that "that's fine but for right now FFS is the only one with it so people have no chance." Which is true (although any of you could buy it away from them).... but that just means - don't enter those levels until your guild or you obtain the amulet.

I am SURE the first person to wear the Bothild set in arena was the only one wearing it and dominated Arena. Probably for days if not weeks.... And the same may apply to all the other inventable sets and epic items.... Imagine if HCS hadn't made a mistake and gave just about everyone the Air Javelin. Imagine the first couple of people who got it (probably would have been FFS people as well) - they would have DOMINATED the arena for 100 levels too.... And if you remember the Earth Elemental barely spawned for the first couple of weeks... So i imagine people would have been complaining about that too.

Entering EPIC tournaments allowed tournaments anywhere in the 100-149ish range without EPICs is pretty much a waste of money. Now entering Epics only Tournaments from 60-124 or whatever people are saying - will be wasting money as well... So... don't enter the epic allowed tournaments in that range until your guild gets one via hunting your own or buying one.

#1191 fs_gravely

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 22:44

Entering EPIC tournaments allowed tournaments anywhere in the 100-149ish range without EPICs is pretty much a waste of money. Now entering Epics only Tournaments from 60-124 or whatever people are saying - will be wasting money as well... So... don't enter the epic allowed tournaments in that range until your guild gets one via hunting your own or buying one.


So the arena shouldn't be open to anyone, just those who can afford to pay thousands of FSP?

Yea, I'll remember that next time players are complaining about lack of movement in arena tournaments.

#1192 MaximusGR

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 23:11

So the arena shouldn't be open to anyone, just those who can afford to pay thousands of FSP?


Nope, it shouldnt. If someone is paying thousands of FSP to have items that are not commonly circulating, you ll have to pay that amount, join a guild that has them or stay away..Its really simple.

As for the "Omg FFS is dominating 60-1xx" cries..How many guilds planned ahead and alerted their members to finish the quest before Hoof kick spawned the Squid? I spammed Fracker logs with masses about that issue repeatedly..

Now that the item is here and looks good everyone wants instant access to it..Without any previous work whatsoever..tough luck *shrugs* Its for sale too anyway ;)

#1193 creekdiver

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 23:47

Power Creep...the one problem that can ruin a game that is item based such as Fallen Sword. We have seen massive jumps in the power level of items recently seemingly without taking into account game balance or what it might mean for the future of the game. The elemental epics were a horrendus error when they were made reborn and obsoleted never every other weapon in the game, including three previously released epics. This amulet is following a similar pattern. How long can this steep upgrade in item power continue and the game remain challanging or fun.

#1194 fs_gravely

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 01:46

Now that the item is here and looks good everyone wants instant access to it..Without any previous work whatsoever..tough luck *shrugs* Its for sale too anyway ;)


Max, let's be clear on three points.

One, I have no issue with FFS gaining the item. As usual, you guys worked for it and earned it.

Two, this affects me personally not at all. I don't play that range myself, I have no interest in playing that range myself, and I'm perfectly happy with my limited level of arena involvement. My concern is for the general health of the arena and how fast tourneys move. If, as a previously active level 60 to 100 whatever arena player, suddenly I realize that my chances have dropped from 2o to 3o % chance to win to almost zero, why am I going to throw the gold away? I'll focus on other areas. End result? More clog. Not good for the overall BIG picture.

Three, even if I played that range, I wouldn't want that item. Is it good? Yes. Would it do awesome things for me? Sure, in that hypothetical situation. But I didn't do any of the work for it or have any interest in paying FFS' asking price, which given the starting prices of most of the Titan epics is pretty reasonable. Therefore, I would have no expectation of having access to it. But, I WOULD like to see some sort of reasonable counter to it. Doesn't have to be super overpowered, just something that makes it halfway possible to beat it. Sort of like defense gear versus Skaldir boots - skally has no attack, so defense is its' weak point. A good new level 60ish armor suit would balance out an epic with no damage whatsoever. Sure, there's bothild to go fist in glove with that choker, but there's a balance there, and hopefully Grim can find it.

#1195 fs_psylonpon

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 03:22

Looking at arenas in the lvl 60-99 range that allow epics... I think it's 10 for 10... for the Frackers. Mitchwall won the one lvl 91 that didn't allow Epics so that's good, right?

Someone mentioned "printing money".....?

#1196 shokolo

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 04:59

hmmm....didnt BG say he is going to lower the entry cost for recipes?

#1197 MaximusGR

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:06

Recipe spawn frequency should be reduced further too..I dont think any more than 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 arenas should be a recipe one..since they are clogging the arena, they might as well have cheap entry fees to work as "training" forfresh players, same way potion arenas are working..A fast moving arena, even being less profitable, is always a healthier one.

#1198 avvakum

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:14

Looking at arenas in the lvl 60-99 range that allow epics... I think it's 10 for 10... for the Frackers. Mitchwall won the one lvl 91 that didn't allow Epics so that's good, right?

Someone mentioned "printing money".....?


I don't understand why people actually join those tournaments, let's completely stop arena, so it would become obvious for HCS that something is wrong. But if people ok with donating their gold to FFS, then ok, no problems.. ;)

#1199 MaximusGR

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:14

Looking at arenas in the lvl 60-99 range that allow epics... I think it's 10 for 10... for the Frackers. Mitchwall won the one lvl 91 that didn't allow Epics so that's good, right?

Someone mentioned "printing money".....?



I didnt see much complaining when the Deaths Head set made things kind of flat in the 450+ arenas..Some whispers of nerfing here and there but after everyone got his own shiny set voices died down..I am not advocating that set had the same impact, but its indicative of why someone would complain -or not- over an item.

I can name quite a few sets that are half-effective in the arena(as Gravely suggests), meaning they are nice to have but have counters. Value of those sets? Nowhere near what a drop of a Titan is..A Titan whose TKP is free for all to have..A Titan drop has to be more than just a good arena item if its not useful in anything else(besides GvG too). Once more than 2-3 items are around, after a month or so, the system will balance itself out.

#1200 avvakum

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:20

Once more than 2-3 items are around, after a month or so, the system will balance itself out.


That's ok, let's wait for those 2-3 items, arena tourneys can wait too, no? ;)


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