Can we talk seriously about a Guild Merger mechanism?
#1
Posted 11 April 2010 - 19:30
Guild Mergers.
There is no mechanism in the game to merge guilds, basically - abandon one guild and move your players and stuff to another. A big impediment to merging is abandoning everything that you put into that guild - structures, guild store slots, etc.
I've had numerous discussions with other guilds who want to merge, but really can't bring themselves to abandon everything.
I think that a real guild merger mechanism (but not a free one!) would see some real benefits to players - and HCS could get some more FSPs spent.
How do we do this? Create a mechanism where you can choose to carry over some of those benefits from the merging guild into the merged larger guild, but at a cost of 10-20% of building/creating that slot/structure/whatever initially.
Re-invigorated gameplay.
More FSPs (or gold - depends how you pay) sunk. Thousands of FSPs and/or billions in gold, I am certain.
Players retain some of the guild upgrades they already paid for once.
Some real shuffling among the guilds.
Problems:
Yeah, there will be claims that this will cause mega-guilds. We already have a limit on the number of players in a guild, and this won't change it.
Coding - we would need a mechanism where someone chooses (and pays for) what upgrades are transferred over. Probably could be modified from the current guild upgrades code.
Discuss!
#2
Posted 11 April 2010 - 19:36
Currently there is a huge disincentive to do so, so as long as the price was right I would be all for this.
#3
fs_sollimaw
Posted 11 April 2010 - 19:43
Guild Mergers.
Love the idea. We prefer to merge guilds as it allows people to bring friendships with them as they join.
I think that a real guild merger mechanism (but not a free one!) would see some real benefits to players - and HCS could get some more FSPs spent.
How do we do this? Create a mechanism where you can choose to carry over some of those benefits from the merging guild into the merged larger guild, but at a cost of 10-20% of building/creating that slot/structure/whatever initially.
This would involve spending less FSP actually. As it stands now, each guild must pay full price for upgrades. Look at it this way, Guild A has 8 Store slots and Guild B has 10. Your idea would bring them together for 20% of the cost of those slots, meaning one of those guilds would get upgrades for 80% less than they would spend otherwise for the same upgrade.
To take it to an even more extreme situation. Create a guild to get 3 store spots and some structures, merge this very basic, un-upgraded guild with another un-upgraded guild and you have essentially doubled your guild's resources for a mere fraction of the intended cost.
In theory a great idea. Would be a pain to code it and its impractical. I doubt it will ever get implemented.
#4
Posted 11 April 2010 - 19:55
To take it to an even more extreme situation. Create a guild to get 3 store spots and some structures, merge this very basic, un-upgraded guild with another un-upgraded guild and you have essentially doubled your guild's resources for a mere fraction of the intended cost.
In theory a great idea. Would be a pain to code it and its impractical. I doubt it will ever get implemented.
This abuse could be avoided by making it only 'Upgrades' which could be carried over, rather than just 'Store Spots'. Hence a guild with only the starting slots would not bring over anything.
As to the 'lower price' argument. All of the upgrades have been paid for, in full, once. The 'tax' of 20% to allow them to be moved from one guild to another is additional FSP. I agree that in principle HCS would want one guild to die so that the living guild has to re-buy all the upgrades, which would cost more than the 20%. However, if the guilds don't merge then it's possible (maybe even likely) that the upgrades won't get done.
It does look tricky to code, but would be nice to see happen.
#5
Posted 11 April 2010 - 19:55
Guild Mergers.
Love the idea. We prefer to merge guilds as it allows people to bring friendships with them as they join.
To take it to an even more extreme situation. Create a guild to get 3 store spots and some structures, merge this very basic, un-upgraded guild with another un-upgraded guild and you have essentially doubled your guild's resources for a mere fraction of the intended cost.
Nah, you only allow paid upgrades to the base guild to be migrated over.
The upgrades have already been paid for once. For a 10-20% fee, you get to bring them with you.
#6
fs_sollimaw
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:01
This abuse could be avoided by making it only 'Upgrades' which could be carried over, rather than just 'Store Spots'. Hence a guild with only the starting slots would not bring over anything.
Solved, at least for starter guilds.
As to the 'lower price' argument. All of the upgrades have been paid for, in full, once. The 'tax' of 20% to allow them to be moved from one guild to another is additional FSP. I agree that in principle HCS would want one guild to die so that the living guild has to re-buy all the upgrades, which would cost more than the 20%. However, if the guilds don't merge then it's possible (maybe even likely) that the upgrades won't get done.
It means a lower price because those FSP in the dead guild are gone, when it dies. HCS wants the living guild to pay the same amount for all upgrades. Otherwise people could make a habit of just merging guilds to get cheaper upgrades. Even if the dead guild paid full price already, they want that full price paid again. I can understand their motivations ($$) and I seriously doubt anything like this will come into play.
#7
fs_phyrstormz
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:02
structures should be lost, i dont think 2 guilds should be able to combine the structures ( though max structures could again be brought over at a cost )
tagged items should be able to be brought over for 50% or so of the original tagging cost, and saves any issues of trust involved with untagging items
granted, it would be a major update, and probably not that high priority, but i think it time, HCS should look into it
#8
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:03
#9
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:05
But 2 guilds wanting to merge could pay ( a lot) to take a certain % of XP with them into one of the guilds that would also have option of renaming .
#10
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:09
maybe turn it around: the FSP invested in guild upgrades are gone, dead .
But 2 guilds wanting to merge could pay ( a lot) to take a certain % of XP with them into one of the guilds that would also have option of renaming .
Well, maybe you have been talking to different people than I have - losing the upgrades has been the big blockage I have seen. That's why I suggested a reasonable fee on that.
Losing XP and structures hasn't been a huge issue in my discussions.
#11
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:10
maybe turn it around: the FSP invested in guild upgrades are gone, dead .
But 2 guilds wanting to merge could pay ( a lot) to take a certain % of XP with them into one of the guilds that would also have option of renaming .
I dislike both parts of this - not all of the guild xp may have come from the players involved in the merger, so I don't think this should be transferable.
Secondly, if everything you put into a guild is dead and lost then it doesn't reflect too well on those running the game. They should appreciate your effort/expenditure and allow you some sort of recompense if it goes awry. Not everything, but something.
#12
fs_gravely
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:19
I could see where providing the ability to transfer upgrades and tagged items could be in everyone's best interest, but I fully agree with phyr on both points; the cost should be prohibitive and apply only to upgrades, and no more than a certain percentage extra on top of the guild being folded into.
This would, additionally, prevent guilds with bad names or GvG guilds looking to reset their win/loss ratios from simply starting fresh every time they decided it was time for a makeover.
I think there's a lot more things HCS should be looking at first however, like finalizing tweaks to GvG, addressing PvP rating trading and the relative worthlessness of the dominance medal, as well as alternative allegiance rewards and what to do about a real legendary event.
And, of course, something for titans, as no one I know is happy with them currently.
#13
fs_mrwright
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:24
No way xp should be carried over.
Auto-transfer of guild tagged gear would be nice, in case there's a large number of inactive backpacks in the dying guild.
But, once again, I don't think a guild merger should be inexpensive. I'd love to see it implemented, but it should not be a fast and easy way to upgrade your guild cheaply. I'd also say limit the number of mergers your guild could make, two total. That way, its a major step, and won't be extraordinarily beneficial to "resurrect" dead guilds for cheap upgrades.
#14
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:33
I think 20% of cost for guild upgrading is way too low. I'd say @ 75%. It shouldn't be all that cheap.
Make it expensive, and the mechanism becomes pointless.
On earlier topics:
I thought of a different (and IMO much better) mechanism to prevent "looting" of dead guilds.
Max transfer of 1 FSP of upgrades per 1 level of players transferring over.
So, to transfer over 4 GS slots, you need to merge over a level 200 player.
#15
fs_mrwright
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:44
I think 20% of cost for guild upgrading is way too low. I'd say @ 75%. It shouldn't be all that cheap.
Make it expensive, and the mechanism becomes pointless.
On earlier topics:
I thought of a different (and IMO much better) mechanism to prevent "looting" of dead guilds.
Max transfer of 1 FSP of upgrades per 1 level of players transferring over.
So, to transfer over 4 GS slots, you need to merge over a level 200 player.
So someone @ level 700 can join a dying guild to sweeten the merger? I'll pass on that idea.
As for making it pointless, I disagree. It will be costly, but hardly pointless. Especially if a guild is dying anyways. Right now, 100% of whatever was put in was lost. Anything better than that is a win for the involved players, as long as they know the cost.
#16
Posted 11 April 2010 - 20:46
So someone @ level 700 can join a dying guild to sweeten the merger? I'll pass on that idea.
They lose accumulated guild XP for what, 14 guild store slots that they have to re-pay a chunk of anyway? Not enough incentive to make it happen much.
#17
Posted 11 April 2010 - 21:12
Fsps in guild(Those not used) Transferred over
Gold in Bank transferred over
Members Contributed exp transferred over
The Advisor stats transferred over(Possibly a maybe)
And tagged items transferred over(Send them to the other guilds Mailbox with a 2 Day limit or somat)
All relics held are automatically given up(Reset)
I'd say lose all the Structures and Guild upgrades that they've got too, since most people will merge to a stronger guild with better upgrades(Most times), I dunno perhaps refund half the Fsps spent on the previous guild in Upgrades and put them in the other Guilds Upgrade Page ready to be used once again.
#18
fs_littlejom
Posted 12 April 2010 - 02:12
To be honest you guys really care most about the guild donated xp (DON'T LIE DOG NABBIT) so that is the only thing that should be brought over. If one guild puts a lot of money into their guild they should be decent enough to keep it running etc.
#19
fs_coyotik
Posted 12 April 2010 - 07:33
I've had numerous discussions with other guilds who want to merge, but really can't bring themselves to abandon everything.
Everywhat? I can assume that when guilds are merging, it will more often than not be a weaker/smaller guild joining a bigger guild. How often would the target guild have significantly fewer upgrades? The only one that really "counts" is storage space, but given pricing of store vs backpack, it's more or less a non-issue IMO.
More FSPs (or gold - depends how you pay) sunk. Thousands of FSPs and/or billions in gold, I am certain.
I'm not certain at all about the FSPs. How many FSPs would be spent in the current conditions if the "merger" is paid for fully? How many "mergers" happen sooner or later anyway and with full payment?
If the cost of the merger would be, say, 1000 FSP now and 200 FSP with your tool, in order to make it profitable for HCS, 6 merges would have to happen in the new system for every 1 merger that would have happenned anyway - with the net profit of 33 FSP per merger!
Coding - we would need a mechanism where someone chooses (and pays for) what upgrades are transferred over.
My skepticism mostly comes from cost/effect analysis. How much time would this take to implement? At a rough guess, a few days of work (deciding about any individual limitations, implementing all of it, testing it thoroughly so that you don't spend much more time dealing with support issues due to lost upgrades). I don't know how much money Hoof earns per day, but we're talking about a few thousand dollars' worth of developer time I'd say - so we're talking about dozens of thousands of FSP. This means that there would have to be hundreds of mergers in order to make it a profitable venture for HCS.
So, yes, a nice idea in principle, but not bloody likely to ever happen. (Even convincing the cows that it would be in principle profitable would take some effort - because as SolliMaw said, they want that full price paid again).
#20
Posted 12 April 2010 - 07:56
I think the investment put in a guild should not be all lost , this is how i see it:
1: merger cost - each guild need to have 100 fsp in their bank ( fix price )
2: structures - highest level will be the one that stays ( lower ones lost, no refund ) , this will allow a few small guilds who upgraded not in the same order to benefit from the highest structure.
3: guild store : i dont belive it is that hard to transfer the store minus 3 slots from the defaul store configuration.
The biggest problems with this that i see are :
1: tagged items - do they move to the merged guild?.....if no room do they go to the mailbox?
2: inactive members : do all members move to the new guild or just those < 7 days inactivity?
3: ranks : what happens to the founder that put lots of fsp into his small guild?.....can he un-tag now in the bigger guild?..........do you think the guild founder of the bigger guild will allow someone else to un-tag gear ( scams come to mind here, abuse and what not ) .
So in conclusion, i like the concept, too many problems though doing it
My 2 orbs
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

