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Relic Poll - Let's put it to the vote :)


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Poll: Should any/all of these changes be implemented to relics ? - tick for AGREEMENT (118 member(s) have cast votes)

Should any/all of these changes be implemented to relics ? - tick for AGREEMENT

  1. Voted Bonuses from relics ONLY apply to hunting, nothing more (14 votes [11.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.57%

  2. Voted Maximum of 2 stats per relic (22 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  3. Voted Stamina/XP/Gold gain bonuses distinct from hunting bonuses (13 votes [10.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.74%

  4. Voted Upkeep fee depending on level and number of defenders (34 votes [28.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.10%

  5. Voted Lower each relic to a MAX of 5% empowerment (13 votes [10.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.74%

  6. Voted Maximum TOTAL relic bonus of 10% instead of current 20% (15 votes [12.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.40%

  7. Voted Reduce the overall number of relics in the game (10 votes [8.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.26%

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#61 Khanate

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 16:46

The point I was trying to make is that there is little to no chance of my guild ever obtaining a stamina gain relic, and the ones I can capture (there are several we have held for up to 5 days undefended) are not worth empowering. That was the reason behind my standardisation of the relic formats, so that most of them would be worth keeping. At worst a relic would have HP, Armour, and Defence - not awesome for levelling but potentially valuable for PvP!


If any guild had to choose a single relic, they shouldn't choose a stamina or exp gain relic. The stats relic are simply better. I am all for standardization apart from the gain relics, which have been a huge part of the top guilds landscape since a long time.

Currently the cost of empowering a relic with Attack/Defence and nothing else is way above the use we would get from it. A longer time frame might allow more benefit from the relics but I would love to see the gold cost added in as well - this is potentially a huge gold sink.


Not sure what you are saying here?

One thing I will say is that you will never get the big guilds to take each other's relics if there is any cost associated with it at all. It just doesn't make sense.


The costs in potions, levels and stamina associated with past big guilds relic fights are tremendous. These particular relics not changing hands have been that way since relics started existing. Under the current system you'd have to not understand much about deterrents to expect big guilds to fight to take each others relics.

While these "elite" relics (which aren't as good as stats relic might I repeat) are few and far in between most of the fight should be happening on stats relics. As long as we don't aim at making the average guild more interested in relics then the only thing that can be looked at is draining gold from big guilds. And if draining gold is the goal then there is no point in discussing anything but gold sink balance as relics will still be for very few and there will be no competition for these relics.

#62 fs_gravely

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 17:14

FFS had a little war this week.

Several members at EOC found themselves on the board, and had absolutely nothing to fear - in part because they had, on top of being level 900+, 20% to ALL stats.

Lack of new content is going to translate into a very problematic pvp scenario soon, cows. Either release new content faster, or fix relics so that they don't give auto win global bonuses. Every single relic post 700 should NOT give bonuses to EVERY stat. Empowering shouldn't be to EVERY available stat.

#63 EJames2100

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 17:16

Your right, most Top Guilds have a Stam Relic, this is their primary Relic and would remain their free Relic(most probably).

If they can then not afford the upkeep of having other multiple relics, then they would choose which ones they want(Stam or Dam Basically).

I proposed a 10k per member per day fopr the 2nd Relic cost
124*10,000 = 1,240,000

For Top Guilds I don't think this is an unrealistic target, costly certainly but Relics are a Premium
Then for the 3rd Relic 15k, and adding a extra 5k per Relic.

While I'm sure holding 4+ is unrealistic for many guilds(Even the top), it's how it should be, if they really want it they can pay the extra for it.

And like I said, Relics should at most have 2 Stats Per relic(And I'm not really counting HP here), I also don't think Attack and Damage should be together(Make lvling too easy) and I don't think Defense and Armor should be together(Easier PvP/GvG)

#64 MaximusGR

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 17:44

FFS had a little war this week.

Several members at EOC found themselves on the board, and had absolutely nothing to fear - in part because they had, on top of being level 900+, 20% to ALL stats.

Lack of new content is going to translate into a very problematic pvp scenario soon, cows. Either release new content faster, or fix relics so that they don't give auto win global bonuses. Every single relic post 700 should NOT give bonuses to EVERY stat. Empowering shouldn't be to EVERY available stat.


I dont see how relics could become a problem in any PvP scenario? The game offers the chance to everyone to take another guild's relics and empower their own..Therefore, relic bonuses are another part of the strategy ;)

#65 fs_gravely

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 17:54

I dont see how relics could become a problem in any PvP scenario? The game offers the chance to everyone to take another guild's relics and empower their own..Therefore, relic bonuses are another part of the strategy ;)


So relics never get spawned in an EOC zone, maxi? You know, where an opposing guild might not be able to go?

And surely, relics don't have a disturbing tendency to buff everything, including your kitchen sink, stat wise, in those same EOC zones. Oh wait...

And of course, it is completely impossible for any guild to defend a relic against determined assault. Surely NO ONE could hold a relic for more than 100 days. :lol:

#66 Removed22342

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 18:07

FFS had a little war this week.

Several members at EOC found themselves on the board, and had absolutely nothing to fear - in part because they had, on top of being level 900+, 20% to ALL stats.

Lack of new content is going to translate into a very problematic pvp scenario soon, cows. Either release new content faster, or fix relics so that they don't give auto win global bonuses. Every single relic post 700 should NOT give bonuses to EVERY stat. Empowering shouldn't be to EVERY available stat.


I dont see how relics could become a problem in any PvP scenario? The game offers the chance to everyone to take another guild's relics and empower their own..Therefore, relic bonuses are another part of the strategy ;)


Really?

#67 MaximusGR

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 18:11

FFS had a little war this week.

Several members at EOC found themselves on the board, and had absolutely nothing to fear - in part because they had, on top of being level 900+, 20% to ALL stats.

Lack of new content is going to translate into a very problematic pvp scenario soon, cows. Either release new content faster, or fix relics so that they don't give auto win global bonuses. Every single relic post 700 should NOT give bonuses to EVERY stat. Empowering shouldn't be to EVERY available stat.


I dont see how relics could become a problem in any PvP scenario? The game offers the chance to everyone to take another guild's relics and empower their own..Therefore, relic bonuses are another part of the strategy ;)


Really?



Yup. If we were at war against a guild with 2 empowered relics, we would make sure, before everything else, that the relics were no longer empowered or held at all.

#68 avvakum

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 18:17

add Epic quests that require capturing 50 fully empowered different relics in a row without a single loss :P :lol:

#69 Removed22342

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 18:19

Yup. If we were at war against a guild with 2 empowered relics, we would make sure, before everything else, that the relics were no longer empowered or held at all.


I'm sure you would. But I can't reach some of yours, meaning the game doesn't offer everyone the chance to take the other guilds relic?

#70 RJEM

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 18:21

Yup. If we were at war against a guild with 2 empowered relics, we would make sure, before everything else, that the relics were no longer empowered or held at all.


The point is that I would be unable to do the same in return, because you can empower relics which are out of my guild's level range to take...

#71 fs_conscar

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 23:48

what if...

in several months, let's say EOC is 1000. or 1100, or 1200, whatever, however long down the road it is. every content gets a full stat relic. doesn't that mean more relics available to people who now are 700? that is, assuming people level as the game progresses. then there's nothing special about an EOC relic compared to the then, what would be, a "midlevel" relic. not the best example, but you understand the point. wouldn't in that case, it be worth keeping? this is, not taking into account any potential new win buttons introduced between now and then. who knows, maybe a 10% relic will be tiny in the big picture months from now.

#72 fs_gravely

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 23:56

what if...

in several months, let's say EOC is 1000. or 1100, or 1200, whatever, however long down the road it is. every content gets a full stat relic. doesn't that mean more relics available to people who now are 700? that is, assuming people level as the game progresses. then there's nothing special about an EOC relic compared to the then, what would be, a "midlevel" relic. not the best example, but you understand the point. wouldn't in that case, it be worth keeping? this is, not taking into account any potential new win buttons introduced between now and then. who knows, maybe a 10% relic will be tiny in the big picture months from now.


You make, on face, a reasonable argument, Cons. Sure in six months, when EOC is 200 levels down the road (hopefully) yes, 700 will be closer to the middle of content.

But how many players are going to exist there, even six months from now? Still well under 3000, I would suspect. A fraction of the number that can access relics like the despair crystal.

That also ignores the fact that all of the relics that have been introduced to whatever is EOC at the time are cookie cutter and overpowered. Damn near every single one is an all stats relic, which is unreasonable, to say the least. Some of them should, let's face it, suck. Just like other relics in the lower levels suck.

Finally, at least to my knowledge, no one actually playin the game right now knows what will happen next week, much less a year from now. Why don't we just say that since this game won't matter two, three, or five years from now, we shouldn't bother to address problems currently in game, because eventually it won't matter anyway?

Hopefully you see what I'm getting at - there's a problem, it could definitely cause severe issues in PvP, and it could be easily fixed with a simple code tweak. And ignoring it just because eventually it'll take care of itself, when it could upend an entire portion of the game - which it can, especially if some of your higher level frackers get serious about PvP, what with the EXP loss fix - only causes more damage to a game that's already had too many errors go unaddressed for too long.

#73 MaximusGR

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 01:43

See this is what i am trying to say, that each of us is seeing a different problem needing addressing..We all agree at one fact..that they are too cheap for what they are offering. Even then, proposing a solution is not easy because of the great differences among guilds.

If costs apply according to member size, which i thought it was a good idea myself, (as Khan pointed out) then guilds with empowered relics will not recruit members below a certain level because the gold they generate through leveling would not be enough to support them. Or at least not as good as the income from recruiting high level players.

If the stats of the relics are reduced to just 2 per relic, then PvP and GvG guilds will find themselves in disadvantage.. A guild focued in leveling will settle for 2 Damage relics and will combine it with either Attack or Defence..A guild inclined to PvP will have to look for all 5 stats because of the various setups and situations they would want to make the best of.

Finally, yes, relics are a luxury and could have a price tag that would reflect that..Leveling guilds could afford those simply by taxing and/or donations by members, the benefit of 20% more damage generates an extra amount of gold/stamina used. Guilds that do not have a high number of leveling people will have to sustain the extra luxury tag directly out of their banks.

What i am getting at is that maybe the simplest solution could be the most effective..Leave relics as they are with their stats..Have the cost of empowering increase when 1 or more relics are already empowered.

Another idea could be to increase the time a relic cannot be taken in relevance to the empowerment level. A regular relic could be taken in 1 hour as now..Each level of empowering could add 30 minutes to that time..That would make a fully empowered relic safely held for 5.5 hours. Then many of the guilds that now do not bother with empowering would want to use that feature because more members could use them for leveling or other activities :) Since relics will never be the object of competition, lets at least open the doors to more players/guilds and make a gold sink out of it :)

#74 sweetlou

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 02:41

What i am getting at is that maybe the simplest solution could be the most effective..Leave relics as they are with their stats..Have the cost of empowering increase when 1 or more relics are already empowered.

Another idea could be to increase the time a relic cannot be taken in relevance to the empowerment level. A regular relic could be taken in 1 hour as now..Each level of empowering could add 30 minutes to that time..That would make a fully empowered relic safely held for 5.5 hours. Then many of the guilds that now do not bother with empowering would want to use that feature because more members could use them for leveling or other activities :) Since relics will never be the object of competition, lets at least open the doors to more players/guilds and make a gold sink out of it :)

I like these ideas :)

The only caveat I would add is to make empowering costs relevant to guild size. Yes, like merc costs. The more members that get the bonuses should have to pay more while small guilds should not. This has been brought up numerous times to no avail.

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#75 Khanate

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 03:00

What i am getting at is that maybe the simplest solution could be the most effective..Leave relics as they are with their stats..Have the cost of empowering increase when 1 or more relics are already empowered.

Another idea could be to increase the time a relic cannot be taken in relevance to the empowerment level. A regular relic could be taken in 1 hour as now..Each level of empowering could add 30 minutes to that time..That would make a fully empowered relic safely held for 5.5 hours. Then many of the guilds that now do not bother with empowering would want to use that feature because more members could use them for leveling or other activities :) Since relics will never be the object of competition, lets at least open the doors to more players/guilds and make a gold sink out of it :)

I like these ideas :)

The only caveat I would add is to make empowering costs relevant to guild size. Yes, like merc costs. The more members that get the bonuses should have to pay more while small guilds should not. This has been brought up numerous times to no avail.


Should a level 600 player in a guild of 2 really have it easier to get a relic for an hour than a level 600 helping 75 new players get into the game? I don't think so. I disagree wholeheartedly with having it dependent on guild size. Guilds should strive to recruit not keep small to get certain advantages.

#76 Removed22342

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 03:20

What i am getting at is that maybe the simplest solution could be the most effective..Leave relics as they are with their stats..Have the cost of empowering increase when 1 or more relics are already empowered.

Another idea could be to increase the time a relic cannot be taken in relevance to the empowerment level. A regular relic could be taken in 1 hour as now..Each level of empowering could add 30 minutes to that time..That would make a fully empowered relic safely held for 5.5 hours. Then many of the guilds that now do not bother with empowering would want to use that feature because more members could use them for leveling or other activities :) Since relics will never be the object of competition, lets at least open the doors to more players/guilds and make a gold sink out of it :)

I like these ideas :)

The only caveat I would add is to make empowering costs relevant to guild size. Yes, like merc costs. The more members that get the bonuses should have to pay more while small guilds should not. This has been brought up numerous times to no avail.


Should a level 600 player in a guild of 2 really have it easier to get a relic for an hour than a level 600 helping 75 new players get into the game? I don't think so. I disagree wholeheartedly with having it dependent on guild size. Guilds should strive to recruit not keep small to get certain advantages.


What advantages?

I think it would make more sense to be factoring in size of the guild, I think upkeep of some structures are based on the size of the guild already, why shouldn't relics?

#77 Khanate

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 03:31


I like these ideas :)

The only caveat I would add is to make empowering costs relevant to guild size. Yes, like merc costs. The more members that get the bonuses should have to pay more while small guilds should not. This has been brought up numerous times to no avail.


Should a level 600 player in a guild of 2 really have it easier to get a relic for an hour than a level 600 helping 75 new players get into the game? I don't think so. I disagree wholeheartedly with having it dependent on guild size. Guilds should strive to recruit not keep small to get certain advantages.


What advantages?

I think it would make more sense to be factoring in size of the guild, I think upkeep of some structures are based on the size of the guild already, why shouldn't relics?


Well the cost on structure is based on A*x+B with B being the bulk of the cost, it might as well be linear.

And a high level who helps train newbies in a large guilds with lax recruiting standards would be at a disadvantage compared to the same player in a 1 player guild as it would cost him a lot more to activate the relic for personal use.

#78 MaximusGR

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 03:54

I put together a whole concept that i believe has a chance to work, here it goes :

GUILDS EMPOWERING 1 RELIC :

This part of the proposed change aims to help guilds that have never before or very rarely empowered relics to actually be involved in doing that. Both for the player's benefit and to work as a gold sink. The idea goes as this :

-Regular relics(with the 1% bonuses) can be captured and held for 1 hour, after that anyone can take them.
- Empowering them extends the time they are safe from being lost. Each empower level extends the time by 30 minutes. That means that a fully empowered relic can be safely held for 5.5 hours.



GUILDS EMPOWERING MORE THAN 1 RELIC :

This part is addressing the fact that achieving 20% bonuses in a player's stats is by no means an expensive feature because of low competition in capturing relics and the policy of guilds not to be aggresive in relic capturing to avoid "stirring the pot". So what i have thought of is this :

A)Relics added from now on stay as they are with bonuses to all stats

- Empowering of the 1st relic is as mentioned above, cost as we know it now and a cooldown of 5.5 hours.
-Empowering a second relic would cost 100% more than the first one(Double the cost) and there would be no additional cooldown period, making it available for capture on the hour.
-Empowering a third relic would cost +200% of the normal cost(3 times the cost) and again, there would be no additional cooldown time after 1 hour
(assuming no more than 3 relics need empowering because of the 20% cap)


B) Relics are modified in a way that allows them to only have 2 bonuses each(Att/Def, Def/Dam, Stam gain/XP gain etc)

- Empowering of the 1st relic is as mentioned above, cost as we know it now and a cooldown of 5.5 hours.
-Empowering the second relic would cost an additional 20% more than the first one and would have no additional time protection.
-Third relic would have a cost 40% greater than the initial one. Fourth relic at an additional 60%, fifth relic at 80% and the sixth at +100%


Always open to suggestions and tweaks, or merging this concept with previously mentioned ideas..Flame away :)

#79 sweetlou

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 05:10

I disagree wholeheartedly with having it dependent on guild size. Guilds should strive to recruit not keep small to get certain advantages.

Why shouldn't the empowering costs be in relation to guild size? The more members in a guild the more players that benefit from the bonuses. PERIOD. It is the exact same idea behind the cost of mercenaries. It's easier for larger guilds to afford the higher costs. And where is it said guilds need to strive to recruit? I'm very happy being in a small guild, my first and only btw. I'm curious how many players in top xp guilds are in their original guild? Next to none.

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#80 sweetlou

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 05:15

Well the cost on structure is based on A*x+B with B being the bulk of the cost, it might as well be linear.

This means nothing to me.

And a high level who helps train newbies in a large guilds with lax recruiting standards would be at a disadvantage compared to the same player in a 1 player guild as it would cost him a lot more to activate the relic for personal use.

It's their choice to "train" that many players. They can easily "train" less if they want to empower relics or they can forego relic empowering.

I don't see your point. The examples you keep bringing up are not how it is normally.

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