Discourse on relics
#1
fs_tangtop
Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:00
Bottom line:
Relics are way too overpowered and encourage agreements between guilds rather than playing within the spirit of the game.
20% bonus to all stats (especially attack and damage) is huge. Without it, 1-hit leveling is difficult if not impossible. All the top guilds will go to almost any length to maintain their 20% bonus (as can be evidenced by the recent/existing war). And any of the top guilds having less than this 20% puts them at a disadvantage (leveling wise) against the other guilds at the top of the ladder, putting even more pressure to maintain this 20%.
Add to this the cost of empowering relics, and any guild that has an empowered relic taken off them is going to be annoyed at having to re-empower that relic once they take it back. Why would a guild want to pay to re-empower a relic when it could arrange to keep the ones it has and just arrange not to take other guilds relics in return. And the bigger guilds will exert more pressure to the smaller ones to avoid having to retake and re-empower them. The whole intention of the empowering of relics was meant to be as a gold sink, it is not working this way, it is just working to make guilds enforce more pressure to other guilds not to take their relics.
So unless this status quo remains of all the top guilds agreeing which relics to keep and which ones to let the other top guilds keep, all our war ensues and angers flare and tensions mount. All over a silly relic and the bonus they give. And once war is in effect, things get nasty. All relics can be taken, regardless of the defense given the right buffs, or at a last resort a 2% hit. And if a guild does try holding two relics for the 20% bonus (or three if trying to keep a xp/stam relic too) it means splitting defense making it even harder to defend things and things just spiral down out of control, and no one gets to hold anything for long enough to make it worth empowering and so on and so on.
And as more and more relics enter the game, more and more guilds are going to be entering these agreements in order to get their 20% and keep on the good side of the higher up guilds.
Relics were not meant to be for the big guilds, nor for the small guilds, but as a minor extension to the game to make things interesting. Their sheer size has made it so that a minor disagreement between players has escalated into full war between 5 guilds, including both a relic war and multiple 100 stamina PvP hits. In game friendships have been frayed, and I have even heard of players contemplating giving up the game because of it. Not a good outcome in my opinion.
Anyway, I created this thread in the hope to re-invigorate discussion regarding relics in the hope that we the player base can convince HCS to make changes to the code to make things fairer for all. I don't have the ultimate solution, I am sure people can find holes in my ideas, but I am sure that collective opinions can come up with some pretty creative ideas.
Please try to stay on topic. This thread is to get together ideas to improve the game in the area of relics.
#2
fs_tangtop
Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:00
-Firstly get rid of the large xp gain and stamina gain relics. They are over powered and only really benefit the top guilds and encourage them to have agreements. Before this relic war FFS, TEW, AL and PANIC had their relics for well over 30 days, and it was not because the defense was enough, but because of agreements. All these relics were taken in mere moments once the war started.
-Secondly, remove the empower function. It does not work as a gold sink, as the only guilds who use it are the ones who know that their relics are not going to be taken.
-Thirdly decrease the bonus that each relic gives and randomize things a little. Make the maximum total stat benefit for each relic 5% (e.g. 1% in each, 5% in one, or a mixture like 2% in one, 3% in another). This will add some variety.
-Fourthly, increase the maximum number of relics any one guild can hold to 10. This way guilds can still get the maximum of 20%, but they have to hold 10 relics to get it.
-Fifthly, add a new structure, something like a 'relic attenuator'. This would be the gold sink. Any guild that has this structure has to pay a fee per member per relic. The effect would be that any relic held for longer than 24 hours gets double the bonus. This will provide a gold sink and also encourage guilds to defend relics. Without the 24 hour delay, guilds would have no incentive to defend.
The upshot - because the bonuses are so small, and spread around, the taking of a relic here or there is not a huge loss for any guild. It allows for relics to change hands more frequently without much impact overall. Relic agreements would not be necessary as there is no real need to stop anyone from taking any particular relic. And the gold sink would come through the structure and be have a guaranteed effect.
Anyway, I have rambled on enough. I am sure we will see some great ideas in this thread.
#3
Posted 03 June 2010 - 09:23
This would be good for the cows because the upgrade is a fsp sink, so I do not see why they would have any objections. They would have to add more relics, especially in the lower levels, where a higher percentage of the community can partake. After all, relics are about teamwork, so the more people involved, the better. The new relics introduced at the end of content are sort of limited to the top of the xp ladder for the most part.-Fourthly, increase the maximum number of relics any one guild can hold to 10. This way guilds can still get the maximum of 20%, but they have to hold 10 relics to get it.
Its a great idea to introduce another gold sink to fix the broken one(and I support your line of reasoning that it really isnt) butFifthly, add a new structure, something like a 'relic attenuator'. This would be the gold sink. Any guild that has this structure has to pay a fee per member per relic.
The double bonus thing would encourage the same agreements you are seeking to eliminate I would think, and I do not see why a guild has already shown it can defend the relic would need further gain making it more difficult to take. I see what your getting at though.The effect would be that any relic held for longer than 24 hours gets double the bonus. This will provide a gold sink and also encourage guilds to defend relics. Without the 24 hour delay, guilds would have no incentive to defend.
Overall, this is a good idea though, and you gave a great rough example to to work around and work out the kinks
#4
Posted 03 June 2010 - 10:25
Suggesting an idea that none of the big guilds and big donators probably will not like and you think it'll happen ?
Well I'm all for it, 1 hitting is not impossible, sometimes a little tricky but it can be achievable, if not it only needs a certain lvl of ca and it's done.
Those with Empowered relics have a massive advantage over the rest of FS in PvP, GvG, Leveling etc...
Same with the Stam and Exp Gain ones.
I don't have any bright ideas myself but a reduction in what they give seems to be the way.
But no matter what the Top 4/5 or whatever will choose the best relics, have an agreement and it'll be the same, just with less overpowered relics.
#5
fs_knc
Posted 03 June 2010 - 12:09
the current gold sink in place is just fine. costs a buttload to empower a relic fully. it's only ineffective if nobody takes them
#6
Posted 03 June 2010 - 13:51
#7
Posted 03 June 2010 - 13:54
#8
fs_gravely
Posted 03 June 2010 - 15:15
-Firstly get rid of the large xp gain and stamina gain relics. They are over powered and only really benefit the top guilds and encourage them to have agreements. Before this relic war FFS, TEW, AL and PANIC had their relics for well over 30 days, and it was not because the defense was enough, but because of agreements. All these relics were taken in mere moments once the war started.
Tend to agree, but that's just me
-Secondly, remove the empower function. It does not work as a gold sink, as the only guilds who use it are the ones who know that their relics are not going to be taken.
Functionally untrue. You say this from the perspective of a leader of a top leveling guild who has both the manpower and the influence to create and perpetuate the system you now have a problem with.
My guild, on the other hand, while being leveling oriented, is small enough and spread out enough that sitting a relic really isn't an option. We can't defend/hold on to a relic very well - but at the same time, we DO empower relics on a regular basis. Hard GvG conflicts, planned power leveling sessions, and other necessary situations all warrant us grabbing a relic and empowering it. Perhaps not to 10 - sometimes we do that, sometimes we don't - but we do empower on a regular basis, and I suspect other guilds in the top 250 do as well, and a lot more often than you think :wink:
-Thirdly decrease the bonus that each relic gives and randomize things a little. Make the maximum total stat benefit for each relic 5% (e.g. 1% in each, 5% in one, or a mixture like 2% in one, 3% in another). This will add some variety.
Totally agree with removing or sharply decreasing the number of relics that give bonuses to ALL stats. Since EOC has moved past level 700, nearly every relic at EOC has had + to all stats, including stamina and exp gain. This is one of the major issues.
As to reducing your total stat benefit, a far better option is to force guild founders to make a choice - you can empower ONE stat and ONE gain bonus per relic. This keeps leveling guilds from having god mode in pvp. You and guilds like you will choose damage, of course, and occasionally defense or attack - you WON'T get 20% to everything, which IS unreasonable.
-Fifthly, add a new structure, something like a 'relic attenuator'. This would be the gold sink. Any guild that has this structure has to pay a fee per member per relic. The effect would be that any relic held for longer than 24 hours gets double the bonus. This will provide a gold sink and also encourage guilds to defend relics. Without the 24 hour delay, guilds would have no incentive to defend.
I disagree with bonuses to defense. That will just make guilds angrier when they lose their relic.
Instead, charge a fee per member, and leave it at that.
#9
fs_chibibucky
Posted 03 June 2010 - 16:01
-Secondly, remove the empower function. It does not work as a gold sink, as the only guilds who use it are the ones who know that their relics are not going to be taken.
maybe add a gold charge per relic capture. like 300-500k to replace the gold sink.
#10
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:03
60% bonuses were an utter joke. 20%, including empowering 'gain' bonuses are still way too powerful.
The old relic system, while never giving any substantial bonuses to higher level players, never made such a huge impact to which guild a player belonged to. Players were more or less the same stat-wise. Relic empowering changed all that.
As I see it, the devs will continue to do nothing about this because they don't want to 'loose face' to the community by re-adjusting bonuses yet again when it will hinder players from joining big guilds, those same players who tend to donate...
my two
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#11
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:16
I think a guild structure to PERMIT relic-empowering... then upgrades of the structure based on numbers of relics and proportional cost to the number of members in the guild (similar to endurance shrine and others already in use in guilds now) should be pretty doable.
I think guilds WITHOUT the structure should be able to TAKE any guild, but empowering or holding only lasts for 24 hours or something. Then, it automatically coughs up the defenders and is open for re-taking by anyone. A countdown clock on the relic would be easy to add.
BTW, no relics... NONE... should have stamina or XP gain. There are plenty of items in the game with those things and they do unbalance the game in favor of the guilds with them.
#12
fs_gravely
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:22
BTW, no relics... NONE... should have stamina or XP gain. There are plenty of items in the game with those things and they do unbalance the game in favor of the guilds with them.
Part of the benefit of being in a premier, top-of-the game guild is getting some of those bonuses. +1 to stam or a chunk of EXP gain isn't unreasonable if you're willing to sit 80 people on a relic. (hint: more stam gets used walking to and from the relic than is gained :wink: )
#13
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:25
My guild is tiny, and doesnt benefit near as much by having them in the game, but I could not disagree with this more. Far too many enjoy the relic game. And they are one of the most team oriented things a guild can do. Scrapping them is not the answer.relics seem to cause problems lately best thing is scrap them all and be done with it
#14
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:25
#15
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:28
I swear so many of you want to just be robots and have everything fair and everyone have the same exact things, relics, epics, and many other things are there for people to strive for, and reasons to work hard and upgrade their characters.
The current system is not perfect but there is no need to nerf relics, guilds have a choice now of getting 5 or 6 relics and empowering them 1/2 way, but choose to use a lot more gold and get the 10% on just 2, b/c 1 it leaves relics for more guilds, and 2 its a lot more of a pain to get a ton of relics.
and as far as stam and xp gain relic's those are really the only "defended" relics in the game so why on earth would you want to take those away since they are really they only relics that people use a full team for?
#16
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:29
BTW, no relics... NONE... should have stamina or XP gain. There are plenty of items in the game with those things and they do unbalance the game in favor of the guilds with them.
Part of the benefit of being in a premier, top-of-the game guild is getting some of those bonuses. +1 to stam or a chunk of EXP gain isn't unreasonable if you're willing to sit 80 people on a relic. (hint: more stam gets used walking to and from the relic than is gained :wink: )
Not if you at EoC
#17
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:32
No stamina gain. Leave it on gear if you want (I wouldn't cry if they got rid of it from gear, too, for the record), but it's overpowering on relics.
#18
fs_gravely
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:37
Not if you at EoC
Touche, but at that point +1 stam is the least of your problems
#19
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:38
The OP says nothing about getting rid of them, only one player has suggested that.Oh Nos a disagreement with relics brought some excitement into the game so lets nerf them now....
You agree they are not perfect, any suggestions on improving them?The current system is not perfect but there is no need to nerf relics
I disagree with taking the stam and xp gain away as well, but there is no harm in trying to make it so more relics are more fought over. Like you started with, they brought some excitement into the game, I think the idea of this topic is to make them do that more oftenand as far as stam and xp gain relic's those are really the only "defended" relics in the game so why on earth would you want to take those away since they are really they only relics that people use a full team for?
#20
Posted 03 June 2010 - 17:42
Not if you at EoC
Touche, but at that point +1 stam is the least of your problems
Stam gain shmam gain! +400 exp gain ftw
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