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#21 fs_gothicdan

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:49

I've been thinking for the past few years I've been playing to CHANGE that PvP link.
No not get rid of it, however tweek it a bit. Change the PvP link to where when you
access it you get a page where you can SEARCH for player +/- 5 levels of your own.
I personally think that way would be much better instead of having 0-5 (maybe more)
random players at your level appear for the next 30 minutes or so.

#22 Skiritai

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:09

Something to think about for sure.

A friend of mine was hit today, twice, with 100 stam hits, because the player had nothing better to do and he picked her name from those in the attack player link.

Good thing we are more level headed than some people I've seen here. They talked for awhile, I'll have to wait for another day to see what happens.

#23 Trailman

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:23

Ok first off let me say yes I am the Founder of her guild. No this guild does not PvP as a general rule but it is part of the game. I was never happy with that link but the online players list is also there and can be used. The only real problem I see with the Attack Player list is that is shows your gold holdings so no real search or effort is required to find players holding more then they should. As a rule I never hunt within the first 30 minutes of coming into the game nor do I hold for deposits during that time ether. Everyone talks about a win button well in my opinion that screen is a win button for PvP players. I have had some of them tell me that is the last place they go before logging off to finish wasting stamina and steal a little gold. A WIN button you bet, make it a little harder so you have to work for it again not be handed the information on a silver platter. Just my opinion and a little advice for those that don't PvP as a rule in the game.

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#24 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:26

Ok first off let me say yes I am the Founder of her guild. No this guild does not PvP as a general rule but it is part of the game. I was never happy with that link but the online players list is also there and can be used. The only real problem I see with the Attack Player list is that is shows your gold holdings so no real search or effort is required to find players holding more then they should. As a rule I never hunt within the first 30 minutes of coming into the game nor do I hold for deposits during that time ether. Everyone talks about a win button well in my opinion that screen is a win button for PvP players. I have had some of them tell me that is the last place they go before logging off to finish wasting stamina and steal a little gold. A WIN button you bet, make it a little harder so you have to work for it again not be handed the information on a silver platter. Just my opinion and a little advice for those that don't PvP as a rule in the game.


For the record, the gold listing is a little slow to update, I found someone that it said had 160K gold, I clicked on their name and it became over 300K gold...

That being said, I don't really care if that column stays or goes. Just a few extra clicks.

#25 Trailman

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:45

Ok first off let me say yes I am the Founder of her guild. No this guild does not PvP as a general rule but it is part of the game. I was never happy with that link but the online players list is also there and can be used. The only real problem I see with the Attack Player list is that is shows your gold holdings so no real search or effort is required to find players holding more then they should. As a rule I never hunt within the first 30 minutes of coming into the game nor do I hold for deposits during that time ether. Everyone talks about a win button well in my opinion that screen is a win button for PvP players. I have had some of them tell me that is the last place they go before logging off to finish wasting stamina and steal a little gold. A WIN button you bet, make it a little harder so you have to work for it again not be handed the information on a silver platter. Just my opinion and a little advice for those that don't PvP as a rule in the game.


For the record, the gold listing is a little slow to update, I found someone that it said had 160K gold, I clicked on their name and it became over 300K gold...

That being said, I don't really care if that column stays or goes. Just a few extra clicks.


I believe most will agree with you and it will not stop it from happening but will put a little more effort back into it.

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#26 fs_gravely

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:34

Ok first off let me say yes I am the Founder of her guild. No this guild does not PvP as a general rule but it is part of the game. I was never happy with that link but the online players list is also there and can be used. The only real problem I see with the Attack Player list is that is shows your gold holdings so no real search or effort is required to find players holding more then they should. As a rule I never hunt within the first 30 minutes of coming into the game nor do I hold for deposits during that time ether. Everyone talks about a win button well in my opinion that screen is a win button for PvP players. I have had some of them tell me that is the last place they go before logging off to finish wasting stamina and steal a little gold. A WIN button you bet, make it a little harder so you have to work for it again not be handed the information on a silver platter. Just my opinion and a little advice for those that don't PvP as a rule in the game.


Okay. There's two types of gold hit PvP. There's target of opportunity thieveing and there's stalking.

You are unhappy with opportunity pvp. Opportunity PvP is fine for three distinct reasons. First, it darwinizes the game. Players learn, quickly, that holding an amount of gold that is excessive for their level is a bad idea. Without a gold listing of players who share your actual level, opportunity pvp would decrease, sharply, thus causing players to believe that they are somehow exempt. Secondly, opportunity PvP is good for the bounty board. For players post 600, especially, it's hard to find worthwhile targets within your +/- 5 level range. The board is where those players turn to to excerise their PvP vices, and opportunity PvP definitely feeds that. Third, opportunity pvp boosts the general fun factor and involves players that would not otherwise be engaged in PvP on a regular basis. The attack player screen never displays a player that does not share your actual level, meaning if you're on a 10k stamina burn, you'll likely cut right past most strictly opportunistic pvpers, especially with a few basic precautions in place.

Secondly, there is stalking pvp. This utilizes multiple research tools, including the online player list. Removing the gold listing wouldn't affect this in the least, and most of the top notch pvpers use stalking to a greater or lesser extent, depending on how much time they have to kill.

In short, removing the gold link for actual level doesn't do squat, and would harm opportunity pvp - and opportunity pvp is a good thing, not a game negative.

#27 fs_gravely

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:37

I've been thinking for the past few years I've been playing to CHANGE that PvP link.
No not get rid of it, however tweek it a bit. Change the PvP link to where when you
access it you get a page where you can SEARCH for player +/- 5 levels of your own.
I personally think that way would be much better instead of having 0-5 (maybe more)
random players at your level appear for the next 30 minutes or so.


Enjoy.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=93663

#28 lostviking

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 03:38

Ok first off let me say yes I am the Founder of her guild. No this guild does not PvP as a general rule but it is part of the game. I was never happy with that link but the online players list is also there and can be used. The only real problem I see with the Attack Player list is that is shows your gold holdings so no real search or effort is required to find players holding more then they should. As a rule I never hunt within the first 30 minutes of coming into the game nor do I hold for deposits during that time ether. Everyone talks about a win button well in my opinion that screen is a win button for PvP players. I have had some of them tell me that is the last place they go before logging off to finish wasting stamina and steal a little gold. A WIN button you bet, make it a little harder so you have to work for it again not be handed the information on a silver platter. Just my opinion and a little advice for those that don't PvP as a rule in the game.


Okay. There's two types of gold hit PvP. There's target of opportunity thieveing and there's stalking.

You are unhappy with opportunity pvp. Opportunity PvP is fine for three distinct reasons. First, it darwinizes the game. Players learn, quickly, that holding an amount of gold that is excessive for their level is a bad idea. Without a gold listing of players who share your actual level, opportunity pvp would decrease, sharply, thus causing players to believe that they are somehow exempt. Secondly, opportunity PvP is good for the bounty board. For players post 600, especially, it's hard to find worthwhile targets within your +/- 5 level range. The board is where those players turn to to excerise their PvP vices, and opportunity PvP definitely feeds that. Third, opportunity pvp boosts the general fun factor and involves players that would not otherwise be engaged in PvP on a regular basis. The attack player screen never displays a player that does not share your actual level, meaning if you're on a 10k stamina burn, you'll likely cut right past most strictly opportunistic pvpers, especially with a few basic precautions in place.

Secondly, there is stalking pvp. This utilizes multiple research tools, including the online player list. Removing the gold listing wouldn't affect this in the least, and most of the top notch pvpers use stalking to a greater or lesser extent, depending on how much time they have to kill.

In short, removing the gold link for actual level doesn't do squat, and would harm opportunity pvp - and opportunity pvp is a good thing, not a game negative.


lol well there goes a good 5 minutes of typing, I was going to say something similar so

+1

#29 Trailman

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 04:07

Ok first off let me say yes I am the Founder of her guild. No this guild does not PvP as a general rule but it is part of the game. I was never happy with that link but the online players list is also there and can be used. The only real problem I see with the Attack Player list is that is shows your gold holdings so no real search or effort is required to find players holding more then they should. As a rule I never hunt within the first 30 minutes of coming into the game nor do I hold for deposits during that time ether. Everyone talks about a win button well in my opinion that screen is a win button for PvP players. I have had some of them tell me that is the last place they go before logging off to finish wasting stamina and steal a little gold. A WIN button you bet, make it a little harder so you have to work for it again not be handed the information on a silver platter. Just my opinion and a little advice for those that don't PvP as a rule in the game.


Okay. There's two types of gold hit PvP. There's target of opportunity thieveing and there's stalking.

You are unhappy with opportunity pvp. Opportunity PvP is fine for three distinct reasons. First, it darwinizes the game. Players learn, quickly, that holding an amount of gold that is excessive for their level is a bad idea. Without a gold listing of players who share your actual level, opportunity pvp would decrease, sharply, thus causing players to believe that they are somehow exempt. Secondly, opportunity PvP is good for the bounty board. For players post 600, especially, it's hard to find worthwhile targets within your +/- 5 level range. The board is where those players turn to to excerise their PvP vices, and opportunity PvP definitely feeds that. Third, opportunity pvp boosts the general fun factor and involves players that would not otherwise be engaged in PvP on a regular basis. The attack player screen never displays a player that does not share your actual level, meaning if you're on a 10k stamina burn, you'll likely cut right past most strictly opportunistic pvpers, especially with a few basic precautions in place.

Secondly, there is stalking pvp. This utilizes multiple research tools, including the online player list. Removing the gold listing wouldn't affect this in the least, and most of the top notch pvpers use stalking to a greater or lesser extent, depending on how much time they have to kill.

In short, removing the gold link for actual level doesn't do squat, and would harm opportunity pvp - and opportunity pvp is a good thing, not a game negative.


I personally have no real problem with PvP. Thievery yes but I will leave that alone. I warn mine about holding gold and if they do not listen they get attacked. They were warned and I did what I could about it. As you can see by my start date I was here before that update was implemented and the only real point to my posting is that it makes it way too easy. Want the information to make an informed decision do the research for it. That is the way it used to be. The online players list gives you the same information just not the gold holdings. The main difference is you have to work for it not be given the information as I said on a silver platter. Spoon feed yep, it does nothing for learning how to PvP or how to find your targets. It just gives you 5 targets you can look at and attack. It is amazing how many of those attacks fail. HCS has made it too easy and lazy players do not have the need to learn anymore. That is a real shame as to learn is to grow and be able to teach others as well. The Bounty Board is a good thing and not available in SS2 which I think is a mistake but not my call.

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#30 fs_gravely

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 04:15

I personally have no real problem with PvP. Thievery yes but I will leave that alone.


I see this a lot, and it really makes me wonder. The vast majority of truly random pvp is about gold...therefore, how can you have an issue with gold theft and NOT have an issue with random PvP? :shock:

I warn mine about holding gold and if they do not listen they get attacked. They were warned and I did what I could about it.


Good, you're doing exactly what you should as a founder.

As you can see by my start date I was here before that update was implemented and the only real point to my posting is that it makes it way too easy. Want the information to make an informed decision do the research for it. That is the way it used to be. The online players list gives you the same information just not the gold holdings. The main difference is you have to work for it not be giving the information as I said on a silver platter.


That's why it's called target of opportunity PvP; see why opportunity PvP is a good thing a few posts up. Does it make it easy to get hit? Yes. Does it guarantee a win? No.

Spoon feed yep, it does nothing for learning how to PvP or how to find your targets. It just gives you 5 targets you can look at and attack. It is amazing how many of those attacks fail.


No amount of target searching, whether it's via Find Player, Online Player, Top Rated lists, or any other method a player might utilize teaches you how to PvP; only the act of PvP truly teaches you anything about it. Therein lies the beauty.

However, as you yourself pointed out, the Attack Player screen is just that - it gives you, at MOST, five or six players that you can hit. That isn't a win button, simply information. Let me know when you need to find the specific url of a world area by hand to start hunting, and then we can discuss how much harder leveling is versus PvP.

HCS has made it too easy and lazy players do not have the need to learn anymore.


That applies to far more than PvP; in fact, if anything, I've had a harder time PvPing lately with all the level 800+ players getting in on the act.

The Bounty Board is a good thing and not available in SS2 which I think is a mistake but not my call.


You do realize the board would suffer greatly, if not die completely except for war bounties, if it weren't for opportunity PvP?

#31 Trailman

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 04:53

Let me address these one or two at a time. I have no issue with PvP because it teaches a lesson. Be that lesson you have too much gold or that your gear is not appropriate for your level. If the attack was for gold then the lesson learned is not to hold so much. If the attack was because your gear was not appropriate you need to ask for new gear and I insist mine look to see what to ask for as well.
If the attack was just because you were on that list as has happened then there is no lesson and it was to waste stamina. Waste is waste, why waste anything in the game? If you are wasting stamina it is most likely because someone told you that you have to waste it. If so waste it on the Bounty Board not on random players that are just playing the game. Unless of course they have too much gold for there own good.

Next I will leave the doing what I should as a founder alone as yes I am but lessons must be learned and sometimes the only way is the hard way.

Spoon feed. That is correct nothing teaches you how to PvP except doing so. The issues is that a list of 5 or 6 players that you can just click the attack player button on with out looking to see if you can even win is stupid. It teaches nothing and does not even force the attacker to look before attacking.

As far as the level issues I am not there yet and will continue my practices even when I get there I make a crummy target unless my PvP rating brings me into range. I teach mine how to hide gold using the same means that I do. Buy it and then sell it for more then you bought it for, FSP by choice.

I do not believe the board would die without opportunity bounties. Lots of thieving goes on and those will always be placed. I do not take War bounties but do take normal ones for fsp and when required party bounties for members or friends that ask for help. I would love to see the xp loss for the entire 10 level range put back into place to stop the trading of prestige points. Opportunity PvP will remain as well it will just not be canned so you can go to one place and hit or try to hit 5 different players. A little work is a good thing :)

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#32 fs_gothicdan

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 17:35

Yeah that just click and attack thing needs to go the way of ol' Yeller. I do not
PvP much, however I do always check a persons profile before/if I attack.

When I do try to do a little PvPing I tend to look at a profile like this, in this order:
LvL; VL LvL; attack; defense; armor; damage; hit point; stamina left; enhancements;
buffs; gear; guild (open in new tab); bio (yes I read bio's as some can have some very funny stuff).
Then I look at their allies (open in new tab).

IF I think I can win the battle I look at gold on hand. If a person has a lot of gold or not determines
how much stamina I use. I mean if I want to attack you and think I can win I'm going to. And I never
attack anyone with out looking at their profile first, that quick attack button in the attack player link
is just kinda stupid personally. But hey, that's just how I do things.

#33 fs_gravely

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 01:24

Let me address these one or two at a time. I have no issue with PvP because it teaches a lesson. Be that lesson you have too much gold or that your gear is not appropriate for your level. If the attack was for gold then the lesson learned is not to hold so much.


Then you don't have an issue with gold theft, as an activity (although I suspect you don't appreciate it happening to your members, which is completely understandable)

Spoon feed. That is correct nothing teaches you how to PvP except doing so. The issues is that a list of 5 or 6 players that you can just click the attack player button on with out looking to see if you can even win is stupid. It teaches nothing and does not even force the attacker to look before attacking.


I know of no one post 300 that engages in this. I, and every pvp player I am familiar with, attacks when they have a clear understanding of what they need to defeat the target. You can't always gaurantee a win, but anyone I know does their best to maximize their chances. Anyone who pvps for any length of time eventually does the same.

As far as the level issues I am not there yet and will continue my practices even when I get there I make a crummy target unless my PvP rating brings me into range. I teach mine how to hide gold using the same means that I do. Buy it and then sell it for more then you bought it for, FSP by choice.


That was more a commentary that being a mid level pvp player is getting harder these days, not easier, due to the evolution of End Of Content circumstances.

I do not believe the board would die without opportunity bounties. Lots of thieving goes on and those will always be placed.


Most thefts are opportunity thefts....

I do not take War bounties but do take normal ones for fsp and when required party bounties for members or friends that ask for help. I would love to see the xp loss for the entire 10 level range put back into place to stop the trading of prestige points.


What exactly generates "normal" bounties? 90% of the time a hunter has no information available regarding why the target has been posted; it isn't relevant to the activity, merely that a bounty has been placed.

Opportunity PvP will remain as well it will just not be canned so you can go to one place and hit or try to hit 5 different players. A little work is a good thing :)


You misunderstand. Removing the attack player screen removes the ability to take a peek at a tiny handful of players and maybe get lucky. It's like seeing a twenty dollar bill lying on the ground - if you're blind, you'll never pick it up. If you want to remove the ability to attack directly from the attack player screen, that's fine - I never use it anyway, and nor does any other effective pvp player.

#34 Trailman

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 02:42

Let me address these one or two at a time. I have no issue with PvP because it teaches a lesson. Be that lesson you have too much gold or that your gear is not appropriate for your level. If the attack was for gold then the lesson learned is not to hold so much.


Then you don't have an issue with gold theft, as an activity (although I suspect you don't appreciate it happening to your members, which is completely understandable)

That is not what I said. I don't like gold thieving but it is part of the game and I do my very best to warn them when they have too much gold and teach them how to hide it so that it can be turned into FSP without using the marketplace. I have in the past taken advantage of gold thieves when placing a bounty to get additional levels from the target. What I do take exception to wasting stamina with random attacks of others for no better reason then to waste stamina because you were told to.

Spoon feed. That is correct nothing teaches you how to PvP except doing so. The issues is that a list of 5 or 6 players that you can just click the attack player button on with out looking to see if you can even win is stupid. It teaches nothing and does not even force the attacker to look before attacking.


I know of no one post 300 that engages in this. I, and every pvp player I am familiar with, attacks when they have a clear understanding of what they need to defeat the target. You can't always gaurantee a win, but anyone I know does their best to maximize their chances. Anyone who pvps for any length of time eventually does the same.

I agree and the PvP players I know above 200 do this as well. It is the ones under 100 and the beginners between 100 and 200 that are the worst offenders and really where this posting is pointed. If you are a leveler and are above 200 and don't know how to hide your gold then this game is not really for you. I knew how to start hiding by 50 and teach everyone here those same lessons.

As far as the level issues I am not there yet and will continue my practices even when I get there I make a crummy target unless my PvP rating brings me into range. I teach mine how to hide gold using the same means that I do. Buy it and then sell it for more then you bought it for, FSP by choice.


That was more a commentary that being a mid level pvp player is getting harder these days, not easier, due to the evolution of End Of Content circumstances.

Can't say I am unhappy about that sorry :D

I do not believe the board would die without opportunity bounties. Lots of thieving goes on and those will always be placed.


Most thefts are opportunity thefts....

Correct and being able to look at that snapshot of players removes the work from it. Want it work for it, find the players with the online list. Even just the snapshot list if it did not display the gold holdings on it. With that display it is point and click for those under 100.

I do not take War bounties but do take normal ones for fsp and when required party bounties for members or friends that ask for help. I would love to see the xp loss for the entire 10 level range put back into place to stop the trading of prestige points.


What exactly generates "normal" bounties? 90% of the time a hunter has no information available regarding why the target has been posted; it isn't relevant to the activity, merely that a bounty has been placed.

Again you are correct but there is information in the reward. If it is a standard gold reward i.e. 10 gold for each level of the target then there was probably not a great loss involved. Even twice that as some hope they will get more stamina hits from different players on the bounty. An FSP bounty usually means a large loss or a new player that does not really understand how the board works, or is hoping for a great deal of attacks from hunters trying to get the fsp reward. Yes I know how to tell if a bounty has been taken.

Opportunity PvP will remain as well it will just not be canned so you can go to one place and hit or try to hit 5 different players. A little work is a good thing :)


You misunderstand. Removing the attack player screen removes the ability to take a peek at a tiny handful of players and maybe get lucky. It's like seeing a twenty dollar bill lying on the ground - if you're blind, you'll never pick it up. If you want to remove the ability to attack directly from the attack player screen, that's fine - I never use it anyway, and nor does any other effective pvp player.


Again as I said this is really pointed to those under 100 and to some of them between 100 and 200 that are just getting into it. I would not necessarily say to remove that screen just the gold holdings notice from that screen. It would be nice to force PvP players back to the online screen as I know some tricks to keep me off the last 2 pages but I don't think the cows will remove the attack players screen much as I would like to see it removed. The online players gives you the same information as the attack player you just have to work for it. Work is the operative word here why should one form of player be given preference over others. We work for our xp we don't get to see anymore then the location we are on. Why should PvP players get a snapshot i.e. free information with out having to work for it.

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#35 Maehdros

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:24

Once I hit someone in my pvp level range , whether it be for gold, or hourly hitting etc, I remember them.I keep an eye on players as I level and they level ;) I pop online and search their name, It doest mean i am going to hit them again..But i like to keep an eye out.

Like grave said, the attack player is a brief glimpse into who is online, there isn't anything wrong with that..I never just click the link and attack the player without thought. I scan what equip they have,and if they got gold? I buff up and swing for the fences. Those who want to get rid of the link seem to want to become a bit safer PvP wise?Theres a buff for that...DEFLECT, or even better..don't hold gold.

#36 fs_gravely

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:29

1. It isn't "opportunity" PvP if you can't engage in it at a moment's notice. Having gold on hand show up for players who share the same VL is nothing but a darwinian mechanism. If we were discussing having gold searchable or having it displayed for +/- 5 levels, you'd have a point; however, gold on hand for VL is the status quo and it works quite well, thank you very much.

2. Your main concern seems to revolve around the ability to instantly attack, not having the information available. Once again, by all means, remove the instant radio button click. It doesn't have any bearing on actual PvP. Do NOT mess with the information displayed, however.

#37 sweetlou

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:56

Those who want to get rid of the link seem to want to become a bit safer PvP wise?Theres a buff for that...DEFLECT, or even better..don't hold gold.

I am constantly amazed that players just don't understand the game and continue holding opportunistic amounts of gold. Sell gold into safe FSPs and forget about the buff.

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#38 Trailman

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:02

Once I hit someone in my pvp level range , whether it be for gold, or hourly hitting etc, I remember them.I keep an eye on players as I level and they level ;) I pop online and search their name, It doest mean i am going to hit them again..But i like to keep an eye out.

Yep and I do the same both for friends and enemies.

Like grave said, the attack player is a brief glimpse into who is online, there isn't anything wrong with that..I never just click the link and attack the player without thought. I scan what equip they have,and if they got gold? I buff up and swing for the fences. Those who want to get rid of the link seem to want to become a bit safer PvP wise?Theres a buff for that...DEFLECT, or even better..don't hold gold.


I use deflect at times when I have something going on like the possibility of being placed on the bounty board. I also only hold enough gold to make it really worth while to hit me about twice a week and most times it is less then 1fsp worth. As my earlier post said I never Hunt or hold for a deposit within the first 30 minutes of logging into the game because of that screen.

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#39 sweetlou

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:15

why do only players your level show up on the attack player screen?

Because it doesn't work so well. Here's a thread recommending a better search:

viewtopic.php?p=926007#p926007

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#40 Trailman

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:23

Those who want to get rid of the link seem to want to become a bit safer PvP wise?Theres a buff for that...DEFLECT, or even better..don't hold gold.


I am constantly amazed that players just don't understand the game and continue holding opportunistic amounts of gold. Sell gold into safe FSPs and forget about the buff.


That is my point about that screen. If someone is making a deposit to the guild then the gold holdings will be well more then they should have on them. It only happens for a few minutes and I don't know how fast that screen refreshes. If they have gone offline with that kind of gold holding then that is their problem and they have not learned the lesson yet.

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