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Victimize the Levelers: thieves and bullies rule!


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#801 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 08:26

See, Coyotik. The reason I think simply basing whether or not you can take Xp on the actual levels.

1) it can prevent the hourly shaving of Xp, if you can knock him out of that range
2) it will keep him in his former range, where his teeth have been yanked out basically.
3) he will have less available gear for his range
4) if he doesn't stay in his VL hunting ground, then he's going to suffer on gold gain. (If they wants to avoid that, they will be cut off from moving to other maps which is needed for most other parts of the game.)


Sounds like actual punishment, doesn't it, Coyo?


I don't insist on punishment. Any method is OK with me as long as it will restore the pre-VL state, where when faced with a bully, you can protect your gold and XP simply by kicking his ass down 5 (or, at worst, down 2x5)

#802 asterxemil

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 08:31

Glad to see this topic not only went off-course, but apparently fell off a cliff and still it lives

#803 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 08:32



3) The risk of bounty IS the prime cause of PvP medal trading. The medal is bought by high level players exactly because nobody wants to take it by force - because even a single attack could cause delevel damage equivalent to a full week of stam!

And that's the biggest reason they're changing the pvp point system.


Yes - but that doesn't mean that it cannot be fixed in other ways. (My experience with HCS is that trying to fix something will screw up something else, I won't bother you with a list of examples as you surely can imagine them...). They're very good at coming up with restrictions and modifications, but they rarely choose the simple and effective solutions :)



3) If there's no risk of XP loss for an attack on PvP rating alone, then the rating will start to have a real meaning - I win a lot and I don't lose much.

No, if the exp loss, or the ability to bounty is taken away it is no longer pvp, and it loses any meaning it may have had.


I disagree with statements like "it is no longer pvp". Any attack on another player IS PvP by definition :), whether it's an attack for fun, rating or an attempt to rob them. I've played a few other games that I cannot name here, but in some of them, fights for prestige/rank/rating only were an option - and the PvP aspect of the game did not suffer by that in any way.

What other meaning should the PvP Ladder have, than to reflect the ability of a player to win more than they lose?

#804 Bleltch

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 11:21

What other meaning should the PvP Ladder have, than to reflect the ability of a player to win more than they lose?

With the dominance medal sitting at the top of the pvp ladder, the players there should be dominant in pvp. Not some pansy version where they can go running around playing tag with no risk of consequences. If anything i think players on the ladder should have some added risks built into the game, something like the game automated to put bounties on them at certain intervals could be interesting. Or they could take double damage when a player counter attacks.

Make the ladder what it was supposed to be!!! To show who the hardcore pvpers are. It's not something that should be nerfed so that the levels will have a chance. It's for the pvpers!!!

#805 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:15



What other meaning should the PvP Ladder have, than to reflect the ability of a player to win more than they lose?

With the dominance medal sitting at the top of the pvp ladder, the players there should be dominant in pvp. Not some pansy version where they can go running around playing tag with no risk of consequences.


I just cannot agree with this. PvP stays for "Player Versus Player". It says absolutely NOTHING about limitations, consequences or anything else. A person who masters the game mechanics, buff combinations and gear combinations together and manages to have the highest win ratio both when attacking and when defending, that's who dominates "PvP". Whether his attacks included gold theft or XP loss, that is to me absolutely irrelevant.

Make the ladder what it was supposed to be!!! To show who the hardcore pvpers are. It's not something that should be nerfed so that the levels will have a chance. It's for the pvpers!!!


But this is your assumption only, that it "was supposed to be to show who the hardcore pvpers are". I don't mind having more ladders - we have most bounties completed ladder, so let's have most bounties created against ladder and most gold stolen ladder - but I wouldn't want to make any assumptions about what was it supposed to be. If the HCS cared the least bit that it's not what it's supposed to be, they could have changed it a long time ago, so I guess that it was supposed to be yet another medal/ladder that looked like a good idea at the start, but was not scrutinized at all with the combat system in mind. Anyone who understands the combat system knows that in the current form, the ladder is total crap, because it is absolutely NOT possible to keep your PvP rating by your PvP skills....

#806 Bleltch

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:28

stuff

It's obvious you're an anti-pvper. Pvp was put into the game for a reason. There are risks and rewards for engaging in it. Nerfing it to make it an easier, kinder, gentler system isn't the answer. If you dont like the core basics of how pvp works here, go over to ss2 and have at it there.

#807 Uncle Beg

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:42

Personally, I think PvP is required and needed improvements.

KEEP:
1. Gold loss for the defender and gain for the attacker
2. XP loss for the defender
3. PvP rating loss for the defender and gain for the attacker
4. Prestige points loss for the defender and gain for the attacker

ADDITION
1. XP gain for the winner and loss for the defeated (just like battling a creature). Use the gain/loss formula from creatures. Win = gain and defeated = loss.
2. Gold gain for the winner and loss for the defeated (just like battling a creature). Use the gain/loss formula from creatures. Win = gain and defeated = loss.
3. This might be tough to implement. On the bounty board, instead of losing 5 levels maximum, how about losing the XP gain + Gold gain total. We can double or triple the total if needed.

#808 avvakum

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:51

coyotik, most online games are based on risk versus rewards system, even "the opt out of pvp" so many players talk about comes with a penalty in progression and lesser rewards comparing to players that put themselves at risk of PvP in search for faster progression and higher rewards. In Fallensword all the higher rewards (skills/enhacements/gear) are given to levelers and the risk is to be attacked by pvp'ers (lose XP. lvls, gold). If someone wants lesser risk, he should be placed in less rewarding environment... for instance, no skill points for your levels, no gold & less xp from creatures, if you want to be immune to pvp attacks.

#809 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:15


stuff

It's obvious you're an anti-pvper. Pvp was put into the game for a reason. There are risks and rewards for engaging in it. Nerfing it to make it an easier, kinder, gentler system isn't the answer. If you dont like the core basics of how pvp works here, go over to ss2 and have at it there.


You're wrong. I'm not anti-pvper. I just think that PvP in FS is broken (and from being just a little broken at start, it has grown seriously broken with many later updates that made life even easier for attackers).
And I just don't shut up when somebody takes his or her opinion as "that's how it was supposed to be". PvP can have many flavors, variants or options - and there is absolutely no reason to reject them upfront just because they do not match the current "hardcore PvP" how FS players are used to it.

I'm not asking to make it easier. I'm asking to have more options, practically to have a GvG-like PvP without the necessity of having a guild. Most of the changes I'm proposing would not affect the hardcore PvPers and their style of play and enjoyment at all.

#810 fs_coyotik

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:20

coyotik, most online games are based on risk versus rewards system, even "the opt out of pvp" so many players talk about comes with a penalty in progression and lesser rewards comparing to players that put themselves at risk of PvP in search for faster progression and higher rewards. In Fallensword all the higher rewards (skills/enhacements/gear) are given to levelers and the risk is to be attacked by pvp'ers (lose XP. lvls, gold). If someone wants lesser risk, he should be placed in less rewarding environment... for instance, no skill points for your levels, no gold & less xp from creatures, if you want to be immune to pvp attacks.


I don't think a total opt-out is a solution. Newbie protection maybe, perhaps limited opt-out in the sense that once you start attacking others, you've breaken the seal forever - AND a lot of content and goodies accessible only to those who aren't covered. But even that isn't necessary - all I'm asking for is evening the odds a little, fixing some of the past design mistakes/oversights - PLUS an option to make real (not arranged) PvP attractive even to levellers.

#811 Bleltch

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:24

- PLUS an option to make real (not arranged) PvP attractive even to levellers.

We have what you want already: it's called the pvp arena. No risk but gold, with a lot of reward. No exp loss and i know a lot of levelers that are into it. The real pvp system doesn't need to be nerfed for the levelers to compete in pvp there.

#812 sweetlou

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:27

If someone wants lesser risk, he should be placed in less rewarding environment... for instance, no skill points for your levels, no gold & less xp from creatures, if you want to be immune to pvp attacks.

Don't forget the scarlet 'A' on their bio for anti-PvPer.

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#813 fs_defenderxy

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:38

Here's another completely random, and probably foolish idea for PvP change; how about creating a "counter-attack" window, of say 24 hours, where the person attacked can attempt to win back all that was lost? Lost gold, xp, and rating would be suspended until the counter was made, or the window was up. This would encourage PvP, in my opinion, rather than completely cripple it. Just a thought, please don't hate (hit) me for it... :mrgreen:

#814 avvakum

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:43

all I'm asking for is evening the odds a little, fixing some of the past design mistakes/oversights - PLUS an option to make real (not arranged) PvP attractive even to levellers.


The risk to lose levels is not a design mistake, while other games offer 2 areas - one less rewarding without pvp, and other more rewarding with higher risk to lose hard earned, Fallensword offers just one area with higher rewards and higher risk to lose. What would make PvP attractive to levelers is changing the reward system - remove skill points from all players and make them available from pvp activities only ;)

#815 fs_defenderxy

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:50

don't know what i did to tinkle off wk but there was no need to take 5 levels from me ?

Maybe you violated one of their rules? They tend to respond aggressively to violators of their code...

#816 fs_defenderxy

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:53

i don't know any of them or any member of the guild nor do i speak to them

Well, your not on their list of people who need some constant reminding not to piss them off... Maybe they just wanted to share a little angst with you. :mrgreen:

#817 KitiaraLi

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 15:30

This tread is a perfect example as to why, we need forum mods back .. there are ideas and suggestions in it, but they all seem to drown in ppl whining, crying, complaining and good old fashioned name calling.

I'll do the honky ponky and get dragged into it just like this though.

PvP is a part of the game, and it has always been, it even says so on the front page when you first sign up. Ever seen an add for the game? Says it's a player vs player game there as well.

Why do we hit? Well, don't expect us to rectify why we do what we do, just know we have our reasons, and a part of it all, is for us to know, and you to be left in the dark. You are free to ask why, but don't be a punk about it, if we're not gonna tell.

And why the slander about a specific guild? Of course we band together with like minded players, just like the rest of y'all do. You band up on whatever you like in the game, leveling, GvG, Titans, SE slaying, Avy making, whatever - we band up due to our love for PvP.
Being in a guild is about more than just the boost to stats you gain from structures and relics. We protect our own, just like y'all should do.

Want to protect yourself, or even avoid PvP? Try not having gold on hand, move it when hunting, and do try to wear something good when going offline, and have your buds watch your back with buffs... and most important, understand that even though it's a game, and you can sit and play all tough while hiding behind your screen, there are legit ways in game to inflict pain on your character. Basically try acting accordingly, and maybe you will not attract attention.. I could name someone who learned his lesson the hard way, and this padawan reformed just fine, and turned into a very nice little jedi :wink:

/Kit - breaking skulls and stealing gold because I love doing so.

No one can deny that we changed this game and influenced it in such a way that NO ONE could compete with us.. so much so that they changed the rules. ~Abhorrence, chosen founder of Cerulean Sins


#818 Spitfire666123

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 15:33

don't know what i did to tinkle off wk but there was no need to take 5 levels from me ?


i would put my 2 FSP on the possibility that it's to see if you're really into PvP like you claim to be... or to show what real PvP is ;)

PvP is NOT just about hitting other people, and getting medals... its about knowing how to take the punishment that is put upon you quite often (losing levels) ... and im sure WK just wanted to make that fact a bit more of reality... i just wish they invited me to the party, 'cause ive been wanting to hit you myself for a long time :lol:

This tread is a perfect example as to why, we need forum mods back .. there are ideas and suggestions in it, but they all seem to drown in ppl whining, crying, complaining and good old fashioned name calling.

I'll do the honky ponky and get dragged into it just like this though.

PvP is a part of the game, and it has always been, it even says so on the front page when you first sign up. Ever seen an add for the game? Says it's a player vs player game there as well.

Why do we hit? Well, don't expect us to rectify why we do what we do, just know we have our reasons, and a part of it all, is for us to know, and you to be left in the dark. You are free to ask why, but don't be a punk about it, if we're not gonna tell.

And why the slander about a specific guild? Of course we band together with like minded players, just like the rest of y'all do. You band up on whatever you like in the game, leveling, GvG, Titans, SE slaying, Avy making, whatever - we band up due to our love for PvP.
Being in a guild is about more than just the boost to stats you gain from structures and relics. We protect our own, just like y'all should do.

Want to protect yourself, or even avoid PvP? Try not having gold on hand, move it when hunting, and do try to wear something good when going offline, and have your buds watch your back with buffs... and most important, understand that even though it's a game, and you can sit and play all tough while hiding behind your screen, there are legit ways in game to inflict pain on your character. Basically try acting accordingly, and maybe you will not attract attention.. I could name someone who learned his lesson the hard way, and this padawan reformed just fine, and turned into a very nice little jedi :wink:

/Kit - breaking skulls and stealing gold because I love doing so.


+10000

#819 fs_regnier7

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 15:44

See, Coyotik. The reason I think simply basing whether or not you can take Xp on the actual levels.

1) it can prevent the hourly shaving of Xp, if you can knock him out of that range
2) it will keep him in his former range, where his teeth have been yanked out basically.
3) he will have less available gear for his range
4) if he doesn't stay in his VL hunting ground, then he's going to suffer on gold gain. (If they wants to avoid that, they will be cut off from moving to other maps which is needed for most other parts of the game.)


Sounds like actual punishment, doesn't it, Coyo?


I don't insist on punishment. Any method is OK with me as long as it will restore the pre-VL state, where when faced with a bully, you can protect your gold and XP simply by kicking his ass down 5 (or, at worst, down 2x5)



this solves all the problems with VL and dropping someone 5-10 will get the job done, more than likely. It'll do this without screwing with how VL works and the good sides of VL will still be there.

Dropping a PvPer down enough will effectively dull his teath for awhile.

#820 boeffie

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 16:04

This tread is a perfect example as to why, we need forum mods back .. there are ideas and suggestions in it, but they all seem to drown in ppl whining, crying, complaining and good old fashioned name calling.

I'll do the honky ponky and get dragged into it just like this though.

PvP is a part of the game, and it has always been, it even says so on the front page when you first sign up. Ever seen an add for the game? Says it's a player vs player game there as well.

Why do we hit? Well, don't expect us to rectify why we do what we do, just know we have our reasons, and a part of it all, is for us to know, and you to be left in the dark. You are free to ask why, but don't be a punk about it, if we're not gonna tell.

And why the slander about a specific guild? Of course we band together with like minded players, just like the rest of y'all do. You band up on whatever you like in the game, leveling, GvG, Titans, SE slaying, Avy making, whatever - we band up due to our love for PvP.
Being in a guild is about more than just the boost to stats you gain from structures and relics. We protect our own, just like y'all should do.

Want to protect yourself, or even avoid PvP? Try not having gold on hand, move it when hunting, and do try to wear something good when going offline, and have your buds watch your back with buffs... and most important, understand that even though it's a game, and you can sit and play all tough while hiding behind your screen, there are legit ways in game to inflict pain on your character. Basically try acting accordingly, and maybe you will not attract attention.. I could name someone who learned his lesson the hard way, and this padawan reformed just fine, and turned into a very nice little jedi :wink:

/Kit - breaking skulls and stealing gold because I love doing so.


Although it's true that gangs usually have like minded people in them, this does not hold true to all other groups of friends. There's plenty of guilds who are made up of people who do all the different kinds of play FS provides. Don't judge others on how you made up your guild.

There's been a lot of talking about the pvp ladder not being worth anything, I wonder why 5 levels get taken because of a goldhit on someone trying to get to the top of this meaningless ladder? Maybe because they're getting there by 'persuading' people the hard way not to interfere?

I have all respect for people and guilds who can dish out, and don't whine or go overboard when it gets dished back to them. Hopefully a change to the pvp system will show everyone a bit more true to life.


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