Jump to content

Photo

PvP Ladder Update Announced!


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
384 replies to this topic

#301 Mister Doom

Mister Doom

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,518 posts
  • United Kingdom

Posted 06 August 2010 - 20:39

Actually, that was a genuine wanting of a cookie.... you read too much into it that time.... nothing subtle. O.o


No haz cookies, only cherry flavoured lollipops, you don't want one of these though, trust me.

EnhancedShardoom1-1.gif


#302 Mister Doom

Mister Doom

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,518 posts
  • United Kingdom

Posted 06 August 2010 - 20:40

For a small minority of people hanging around the cut-offs, yes. I really don't think this is the answer either though but it's closer than many suggestions.


I think this would depend entirely on how much of an advantage fiddling around with the different bands gave, if it became a lot easier there'd be lots more doing it..

EnhancedShardoom1-1.gif


#303 Maehdros

Maehdros

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,329 posts
  • Canada

Posted 06 August 2010 - 20:47

They need to have a decay system in place, if not..the higher level players will just gain their rating and sit on the ladder. without barely anyone to hit them etc. A decay would cause them to HAVE to bounty hunt more often and hit more people regularly. More risk for a counter bounty etc, and also a loss or two while clearing the board would cause a drop in rating( if rating is only awarded to the winner, its foolish in my opinion)... there is skill in both attacking a good set up, and also defending against one.

#304 Bleltch

Bleltch

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,784 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 21:25

They need to have a decay system in place, if not..the higher level players will just gain their rating and sit on the ladder. without barely anyone to hit them etc. A decay would cause them to HAVE to bounty hunt more often and hit more people regularly. More risk for a counter bounty etc, and also a loss or two while clearing the board would cause a drop in rating( if rating is only awarded to the winner, its foolish in my opinion)... there is skill in both attacking a good set up, and also defending against one.

i dont see how it will do much, they will just have to be more active is all. Lower level pvper and hunters like me still will not find themselves anywhere near the top of the rankings. Right now the lowest level in the top 10 is 650+, with most of em 800+.

#305 Bleltch

Bleltch

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,784 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 21:28

And i think we're just pretty much flapping out lips here. Hcs has told us what they intend to change, i dont think they're looking for any more feedback.

#306 Mister Doom

Mister Doom

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,518 posts
  • United Kingdom

Posted 06 August 2010 - 21:31

i dont see how it will do much, they will just have to be more active is all. Lower level pvper and hunters like me still will not find themselves anywhere near the top of the rankings. Right now the lowest level in the top 10 is 650+, with most of em 800+.


Perhaps you should level up then if being on the pvp ladder is very important to you?

EnhancedShardoom1-1.gif


#307 fs_rdshepherd

fs_rdshepherd
  • Guests

Posted 06 August 2010 - 21:36

And i think we're just pretty much flapping out lips here. Hcs has told us what they intend to change, i dont think they're looking for any more feedback.


That's the reason I jumped into the discussion. I don't believe the intended changes are going to work very well.

#308 sweetlou

sweetlou

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,955 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 22:13

They need to have a decay system in place, if not..the higher level players will just gain their rating and sit on the ladder. without barely anyone to hit them etc. A decay would cause them to HAVE to bounty hunt more often and hit more people regularly. More risk for a counter bounty etc, and also a loss or two while clearing the board would cause a drop in rating( if rating is only awarded to the winner, its foolish in my opinion)... there is skill in both attacking a good set up, and also defending against one.

i dont see how it will do much, they will just have to be more active is all. Lower level pvper and hunters like me still will not find themselves anywhere near the top of the rankings. Right now the lowest level in the top 10 is 650+, with most of em 800+.

The current ladder is deceptive. How many PvP regularly? Speculating about what will happen is difficult to foresee. I'm looking forward to the major tweak, then undoubtedly there will have to be a touch-up or two to follow. This is normally how it works imo.

[Signature removed]

 

“When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” -GRRM


#309 Khanate

Khanate

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 22:30

The problem with the current system is that unless you endanger your points, at higher levels you don't lost them. With reset OR decay you will be forced to do enough PvP to endanger them.

Furthermore, with reset you simply make people who do not defend themselves worth as much as the fiercest WK fighter every other week, it makes ZERO SENSE. Decay at least keeps the fiercest fighters fight between themselves more than at current to keep on top while keeping currently non-PvPer within a stone throw away.

A decay is the logical next change to the current proposal.

The net logical change to the system (albeit seemingly this might be over anyone's head) is a change in the amount of PvP rating being traded to a rather flatter curve, more from people somewhat lower than you and less from people far ahead. Encourage not simply hitting the top but hitting a wider variety of people.

#310 Bleltch

Bleltch

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,784 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 22:33

They need to have a decay system in place, if not..the higher level players will just gain their rating and sit on the ladder. without barely anyone to hit them etc. A decay would cause them to HAVE to bounty hunt more often and hit more people regularly. More risk for a counter bounty etc, and also a loss or two while clearing the board would cause a drop in rating( if rating is only awarded to the winner, its foolish in my opinion)... there is skill in both attacking a good set up, and also defending against one.

i dont see how it will do much, they will just have to be more active is all. Lower level pvper and hunters like me still will not find themselves anywhere near the top of the rankings. Right now the lowest level in the top 10 is 650+, with most of em 800+.

The current ladder is deceptive. How many PvP regularly? Speculating about what will happen is difficult to foresee. I'm looking forward to the major tweak, then undoubtedly there will have to be a touch-up or two to follow. This is normally how it works imo.

My fear is we'll get these changes then they will go back into ignore mode on it if/when it doesn't help.

#311 Khanate

Khanate

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 22:38


i dont see how it will do much, they will just have to be more active is all. Lower level pvper and hunters like me still will not find themselves anywhere near the top of the rankings. Right now the lowest level in the top 10 is 650+, with most of em 800+.

The current ladder is deceptive. How many PvP regularly? Speculating about what will happen is difficult to foresee. I'm looking forward to the major tweak, then undoubtedly there will have to be a touch-up or two to follow. This is normally how it works imo.

My fear is we'll get these changes then they will go back into ignore mode on it if/when it doesn't help.


That is what WILL happen.

#312 sweetlou

sweetlou

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,955 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 22:41

This is normally how it works imo.

Sorry, normally how it should work.

[Signature removed]

 

“When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” -GRRM


#313 Scathian

Scathian

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 309 posts

Posted 06 August 2010 - 23:56

I'd still like to see you be able to take XP from people under your VL. Otherwise my only option is to bounty instead of hitting back :(

This as been suggested and Hoof told it will get implented :) He just didn't add it to the list in OP

Thanks for telling me, I have not bothered to read the thread so I didn't know that.

#314 NatalieEGH

NatalieEGH

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 342 posts

Posted 07 August 2010 - 00:18

1. BalmainA, what do you mean by:
Why not make it a rule for all the PvP players have to go walk around maps looking for SE's.. and they get no choice in the matter.. must do it !!

I am assuming SE's does not mean SuperElites but other characters, but are you saying they must hunt for us? If so, I think I have to side with the PvPers. I might not like PvP as implemented but that would kill it worse than my suggestions. It would also mean you were always basically going to be hunted by the same people. At higher levels you find fewer and fewer characters as you move around. Unless someone else is actively hunting when I am, I may go weeks without seeing someone else's character. I suspect at Shardoom's level she may go months maybe even a year between actually seeing another character her level.

I have fought for PvP to be what I considered balanced, where I believe the attacker takes the exact same risk as the target not for the elimination of PvP. What I would actually like to see is the the same risk and for winning PvP, whether from defending or from attacking, XP was rewarded from the losers lost xp much like the gold is transferred. This would make PvP players levelers too. Indeed they could become the first to make it to level 1000. Hit for 100 stamina, gain 1,000,000xp or I guess around Feelnew's level maybe 5,000,000xp. 5000 stamina could jump a lot of levels. You worry about them staying in your levels and being able to attack you. A few PvP's with no bounty and they will be too many levels above you to attack you.


2. Windbattle,
Why should opting out of PvP require opting out of GvG? They are played the same but the personal effects are entirely different. There are no effects on the individuals at all in GvG, where in PvP there are changes in player xp, gold, PvP rating, and possibly equipment (if they were wearing crystaline prior to the attack). I am not saying No to your statement, I just am curious for your justification. I might consider it valid, but as you left it I see no support for the proposition.


3. Considering this update is not meant to fix the PvP imbalance problem, I think it went a long ways to fixing it.


4. I do not understand all the worry about counter bounties. I guess they occur but I would not expect them to be as prevalent as some seem to indicate or as harsh. What are the mercenaries?


5. As I read it, all new bounties will be 10 hit bounties (fine), all new bounties will require a minimum of 10 stamina per hit (just like now), all new bounties will place a cap on the amount of stamina that may be used on the bounty/counter-bounty to the maximum used by the bountied person. If you clear a bounty with ALL 10 stamina hits, any bounty against you will be limited to ONLY 10 stamina hits. The one person has a valid point about what if the original hit was 100 stamina, the bounty hunter uses 10 stamina for the first 3 hits and is counter bountied with a cap of 10 stamina hits and then for the remainder 7 uses 100 stamina hits. A. Wait for the bounty to be cleared before county bountying a person. B. The limit could be raised but hey, you started the bounties by attacking someone to start with. I really have no sympathy. If you attack someone for rating or gold or whatever do not cry that you are getting attacked back and it hurts. And yes limiting the damage to that which the person used especially for those clearing bounties I FULLY agree with.


6. Gravely, you say limiting the amount of counter damage is eliminating risk. Based on what the people who have attacked me have done, I do not see it. They attack and immediately hide the gold they got. The bounty hunters basically only get the gold/FSP I pay for the bounty. At my level about 45000 gold minimum. They risk counter bounties, that can strip them of much more than that especially if more than one person takes out the bounty. I think limiting is very reasonable and leaves the risk.


7. One idea for letting people opt out (I still think it should cost at least 100FSP if not 1000FSP), would be to allow opting out but raise the range of people you can attack to 1/2 your level. So a 200th level PvPer could attack for PvP anyone from level 100 to level 300. Tarjuna(level 649) could attack anyone from level 325 to FeelNew (highest player at the moment at level 972). That gives LOTS of targets for the PvP players. With rapid resets, those players with higher levels will be limited to only a few players to have to constantly attack except for the bounty board. If the resets are too often I see a lot of inadvertent bullying. There are 166 active people within +/-5 levels. A lot are PvPers.

Lots of resets not only will upset continuity, it makes those of us (and yes I have a high rating from when I used to wear ff perfect santork + other ff equipment and dumb people would attack me without checking out what the equipment was, they just saw my gold on hand) not into PvP immediate targets. For the true PvP player I am anyway and a reset would help against them but constant resets I think might drive away people not into PvP. Getting robbed of xp and gold every now and then is annoying and even sometimes upsetting. With the resets, people might get robbed depending on level, especially at low levels, 5 or 10 times a day. That is not fun. The people will quit.

The reset should come with an automatic opt out and have to opt in for characters less than 50th level. I remember one day I was attacked 20+ times. I was new to the game and had sold my flamedeer juice on the AH, it went for over 100k, I was about 10th level. I had everything stolen and was reduced back to 1st level.

No giving prizes for attacking other players especially those not interested in PvP will I feel hurt the game. Constantly resetting the PvP rating to all at 1000 may well drive everyone not into PvP away from the game. That would even hurt the PvPers as the people become inactive they stop being potential targets.

If you do go ahead with this part of the update, please do not raise someone's rating. Or only raise them once they have reached at least level 200. Dropping is fine, but do not turn people against the game.


8. Gravely, you won 27 times before you were beaten 10??? I want to be your disciple. Please teach me oh glorious master. I will carry water, I will scrub your floors, I will sleep outside your door with strings tied to alarms and be your early warning system and take the assassin's knife, whatever you wish save warm your bed at night, only please teach me that I may withstand the PvPers attacks. (I have never liked how it is implemented here and now am woefully ignorant for those with experience and wish to attack me.)


9. I think the level-appropriate gear might be reasonable with it also letting spells, guild structures, and level up points allowed. Imagine if the person on the bounty board is wearing a the best defensive set and no spells, level up, or structures allowed. You will win on a 2% chance and you have spent all that stamina, maybe 100 points and gained nothing. I tried the arena for a while playing pure defense. I won battles about 1/2 the time by decision. Are bounties to go that way?


10. Scale time for bounty attacks based on level??? So a person that is the targets level+5 or lower gets to attack every 2 minutes, if 6-10 levels above every 3 minutes, 11-15 levels above every 4 minutes...???? That definitely will help lower level characters get the bounties and the rating for finishing them.


11. Regnier7, here is a cookie (fresh baked oatmeal raisin with light sprinkle of cinnamon), and I did not understand what you said either. I read it 3 times. Did you say that you would take points from the loser and give them to the winner with the fewer points going to the winner if they were higher level than the loser and more if they were lower level than the winner?

#315 Maehdros

Maehdros

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,329 posts
  • Canada

Posted 07 August 2010 - 00:29

Gravely, you won 27 times before you were beaten 10??? I want to be your disciple. Please teach me oh glorious master. I will carry water, I will scrub your floors, I will sleep outside your door with strings tied to alarms and be your early warning system and take the assassin's knife.



:lol:

#316 fs_regnier7

fs_regnier7
  • Guests

Posted 07 August 2010 - 00:30

11. Regnier7, here is a cookie (fresh baked oatmeal raisin with light sprinkle of cinnamon), and I did not understand what you said either. I read it 3 times. Did you say that you would take points from the loser and give them to the winner with the fewer points going to the winner if they were higher level than the loser and more if they were lower level than the winner?


ahhh damn my bad wording.... lol - I gave up on that train of thought awhile ago.

#317 kalish

kalish

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 360 posts

Posted 07 August 2010 - 01:29

Shardoom, you've mentioned the BB as (at least partially) being punishment for PvP attacks. Would it work better if bounty attacks ignored all buffs for the defender? This way the defender couldn't stack up 20 buffs, forcing a bounty hunter to spend a bunch of stam and/or FSP on corresponding buffs to overtake him/her assuming similar levels.

#318 fs_gravely

fs_gravely
  • Guests

Posted 07 August 2010 - 01:52

6. Gravely, you say limiting the amount of counter damage is eliminating risk. Based on what the people who have attacked me have done, I do not see it. They attack and immediately hide the gold they got. The bounty hunters basically only get the gold/FSP I pay for the bounty. At my level about 45000 gold minimum. They risk counter bounties, that can strip them of much more than that especially if more than one person takes out the bounty. I think limiting is very reasonable and leaves the risk.


I understand your frustration, Natalie. Many levelers feel that PvP players aren't punished hard enough by the board, and to a certain extent I understand this; levelers are already behind on the risk equation, and the only way to effectively punish a PvPer is to incur further risk to your allies and guildmates by hitting. The thing is, what are they hitting you for? Find out what the baseline amounts of gold are. If you're getting hit repeatedly, you're over that baseline (I won't hit for under a million gold, for example).

But as for counter bounties, it's the same equation in reverse. You post a PvP player for a 10 hit bounty, and they shrug it off. But think about it - if the PvP player didn't care what they lost, why bounty the hunter? And even if the hunter is bountied, why waste stamina having that person deleveled?

Counter bounties are very, very rarely deleveled, and generally speaking there's a reason behind it.

8. Gravely, you won 27 times before you were beaten 10??? I want to be your disciple. Please teach me oh glorious master. I will carry water, I will scrub your floors, I will sleep outside your door with strings tied to alarms and be your early warning system and take the assassin's knife, whatever you wish save warm your bed at night, only please teach me that I may withstand the PvPers attacks. (I have never liked how it is implemented here and now am woefully ignorant for those with experience and wish to attack me.)


It's a bit easier on the board - you have some idea of who is attacking you, and can counter their setups. Remember, you're most likely attacked in a suicide suit with no attack to speak of, so it's hard for you to win. When I'm on the board, if you don't have at least 350 levels on me, I'm going to win at least one. If you're near my level and I'm feeling frisky, well, good luck.

If you really would like to learn, however, PM me in game.

#319 fs_gravely

fs_gravely
  • Guests

Posted 07 August 2010 - 02:04

People shouldn't be rewarded for surviving on the BB, surviving and showing ones metal is the only rewards a 'bountee' should expect. .


Just had a thought about this, running against my usual mentality of pvp is the devil etc etc. How about the introduction of a new medal.

Not sure on the name, but in essence it would be for those that excel in survival on the bounty board. That way only the bounty winner 'can' take rating, however there will be a medal, a public display of skill for those that can win in defense on the bounty board.

Not sure on any numbers either though tbh, I would guess that they would have to be high though, like 75, 200, 500, 1500? Just a rough idea I know, I'm actually a bit sick today, bite me :evil:


Okay, Doom. You're trying, I can see that, and believe me, credit where credit is due. I'm going to try and do my best to actually work with you here, so bear with me.

I realize that the bounty board is for punishment. So does everyone who PvPs and regularly inhabits the board.

The thing is, losing EXP does hurt - just not as much as it used to. Remember our fun little flame wars over how much EXP should get lost per hit? Just remember, you wanted it lower :lol: '

Not trying to start anything there, but frankly, stamina is free if you're patient, and I am - I have no interest in hitting EOC or getting a top 100 or best player medal, and I have a crystal monthly t-10, so what's the rush? If I lose some exp, it isn't the end of the world - I'm willing to pay the price to have the fun I have access to on the board.

Why is the board fun? Because hitting levelers with a lot of gold on hand just isn't fun. (Well, unless master thief kicks in, then it's mothertrucking hilarious). However, doing my damndedest to beat some of the top notch PvP players in the game - and anyone else that wants a piece of me - is rather addictive.

When the combats are fair - as in, I have a prayer in hell of winning - it's also a great measure of who is actually somewhat skilled in PVP, and is the main reason why I believe rating MUST remain active on the bounty board. I actually really like your idea of a medal, perhaps a Survivalist medal; if it could be implemented correctly it would be one of the best benchmarks of a true pvp player, in my opinion.

My final question to your posts in the thread thus far is this:

I get that you feel the board should be a punishment. But if rating is going to start meaning something, the only way to actually accumulate rating is going to be by hitting other players, or clearing bounties. So, if a player actually attempts to engage the system as it's meant to be engaged - by going out and hitting other players - then, well, they're going to be bountied, plain and simple. Why should they be forced to lose rating when they're only trying to gain it, under the new rules? It just doesn't make sense. Failing that, if all a player does to accumulate rating is clear bounties, well, that's rather one sided, don't you think? It would encourage people NOT to get on the board, and would make it rather difficult for anyone to earn rating, in the end. The only targets would be players that just didn't give a rip about rating, and you'll stop earning points from them sooner or later.

#320 frenetic

frenetic

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 87 posts

Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:50

I will keep this post short and sweet, in contrast to all my posts that I've made on your updates in the past

You post the description of each update, that's fine. But hilarity ensues when you share your personal views and expectations on how the update will change or "improve" a field of the game. Such expert views remind me of a certain expert


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Font:
Arial | Calibri | Lucida Console | Verdana
 
Font Size:
9px | 10px | 11px | 12px | 10pt | 12pt
 
Color: