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Would it be possible to have power downs?


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#1 NatalieEGH

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 08:33

Could we get rid of the spells SSI and DD?

I have finally figured out how not to be upset about the PvP attacks. What is interesting is I think I have also figured out how to make the game aspect that I like more enjoyable too.

Before SSI and DD, combat was very dangerous. You died regularly. I remember transferring my gold to Thilon, Anders1215, Rhuad, and others in as little as 5K increments. I would lose 1 in 5 battles, and to be honest were it not for spells like doubler and defiance and equipment with protection, I think I would have never made it through some levels. It took me almost 4 weeks to make it through the 140's and when I did, I felt like I really accomplished something. Now people do it in less than 1 week and see it as no more difficult than any other levels.

I think I am going to go back to not using these spells at least on levels where 2 hitting will win the day. My revenues will drop but then I will not be needing the gold/fsp for paying for potions/spells so that will not be such a bad thing.

In retrospect, I think these spells are a bad thing, even for people into leveling. When I can walk through a level and know I will not lose a battle unless I am very dumb (like today when I let my spells expire and continued hunting) hunting becomes boring. There is no tension, no excitement, just a boring walk from one door/stairway to the next. And with a DB1200 potion, on those levels without a quest, I pull up the map of the level, and figure out the shortest route to the next level. I make my XP before reaching the next door on most levels.

I have for a long time said I was going to retire from hunting after reaching level 500 and getting my spells all at level 175 including new spells. I have trying to maximize gold and make levels for my guild for so long, I forgot to have fun.

I think HCS really should get rid of the spells. I think players will enjoy the game much more without them. I at least plan to find out.

#2 fs_coyotik

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 08:48

I would lose 1 in 5 battles


Then you were doing something seriously wrong.

I don't know when you were in the 140s, but I went through there before Flaming Baron came to existence and I guess that my death ratio was about 10 times better - that is, dying on 2% misses most of the time. (Ok, one factor was that creep enhancements did not work at all at that time, they were broken and nobody noticed or complained).

It took me almost 4 weeks to make it through the 140's and when I did, I felt like I really accomplished something. Now people do it in less than 1 week and see it as no more difficult than any other levels.


I've gone from 130 to 140 exactly 3 years ago and at speed of 1 level a day, about as fast as from 120 to 130 (some summer delays were involved) - and that was when buffs were capped at 150, there were no potions and crappy relics.

I think HCS really should get rid of the spells. I think players will enjoy the game much more without them. I at least plan to find out.


A few players might enjoy it, but most would scream blue murder.

The biggest problem is that HCS are constantly adding new buffs and new stronger gear to those low levels. DD and SSI have done some damage to the game balance, but the four elemental epics are much worse.

#3 fs_regnier7

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 09:33

Yup.... with the javelin meshed into my PvP kit.... I was one hitting in shild/kala .... :lol:


oye... sad. :(

#4 RebornJedi

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 10:07

before the baron was kinda brutal..i went thru it when the baron was coming out but was expensive enough to be outta reach.

i don't know if the play style before SSi and DD was fun but it was interesting to say the most LOL..i leveled to where i am with barely using SSi or DD or even killing in one hit 100% of the time..ive been using the 2 hit/wither 350 setup since the 186s(lazy) lol if you wish to have 'fun' again, i suggest that style because you will still die randomly..you could even use an armor setup if you really want to put yourself more at risk. hell, don't use any buffs and see where you get lol 5 bucks says quad hitting and not even gaining one level with full stam :lol:

you are not forced to use any buffs so its up to you on how you level. suggesting to get rid of already highly used buffs will achieve nothing but flames *shrugs* just be glad they actually put the enhancements from creatures to use lol before that, armor was viable and actually better then defense

try throwing out a suggestion that makes creatures more difficult..more variety of enhancements and even new enhancements that make suicide one hitting difficult, chance to triple/quadruple their defence/armor or something(hcs will never think about adding something new to preexisting levels/creatures because all they care about is over powered items and throwing out levels left and right..hcs mindset=upwards, not outward :mrgreen: )

 


#5 fs_coyotik

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:35

Also, I don't think that randomly dying and being forced to send small amounts of gold away is fun. For me, the fun in levelling was always researching the optimal gear setup for a given level, trying to find out if it's doable without at the time horribly expensive SE sets... and a key point in this was that most of the creeps were "just about doable" if you tried hard enough.

In this regard, introduction of DD and SSI was good for creeps that were at that time at or near EOC, because it opened up possibilities for 1hitting, but didn't make them trivial/guaranteed. Of course it whacked the last bits of challenge away from lower levels.

The main problem is that today's EOC creeps are trivial and boring to kill, with a few exceptions it's just the same overpowered gear with absolutely no room to level more effectively than somebody else... and, of course, adding whoppingly overpowered gear to lower levels, where it wasn't needed AT ALL...

#6 Bleltch

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 12:49

Leveling is boring enough as it is, prolonging it by constantly dieing would only make that worse. And i went through the 140 range at least twice, one hitting with a safe setup before ssi and dd even came out. So i dont know what you were doing wrong to lose 1 out of 5 combats.

#7 fs_tal6727

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 13:04

I don't see the need to get rid of these buffs. What I see a need to do is to decrease the amount of stats on the new gear, cause anyone can 1 hit through any level anymore with just a couple of buffs from the basic leveling packs.

#8 Khanate

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 15:20

The main problem is that today's EOC creeps are trivial and boring to kill, with a few exceptions it's just the same overpowered gear with absolutely no room to level more effectively than somebody else... and, of course, adding whoppingly overpowered gear to lower levels, where it wasn't needed AT ALL...


+1

#9 fs_regnier7

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:11

The main problem is that today's EOC creeps are trivial and boring to kill, with a few exceptions it's just the same overpowered gear with absolutely no room to level more effectively than somebody else... and, of course, adding whoppingly overpowered gear to lower levels, where it wasn't needed AT ALL...


+1

What the damn cows need to do is step up on the creature diversity, instead of the damn -load-up-on-HP- with maybe a hint of armor, and the occassional turtles.

then damage gear wouldn't always be optimal, maybe....

#10 Spitfire666123

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:14

The main problem is that today's EOC creeps are trivial and boring to kill, with a few exceptions it's just the same overpowered gear with absolutely no room to level more effectively than somebody else... and, of course, adding whoppingly overpowered gear to lower levels, where it wasn't needed AT ALL...


+1

What the damn cows need to do is step up on the creature diversity, instead of the damn -load-up-on-HP- with maybe a hint of armor, and the occassional turtles.

then damage gear wouldn't always be optimal, maybe....


+10000000000

ive been saying this for months >.<

but diversifying creature stats, so that damage isnt the predominant stat... the horror :o :o :o

#11 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:18


+1

What the damn cows need to do is step up on the creature diversity, instead of the damn -load-up-on-HP- with maybe a hint of armor, and the occassional turtles.

then damage gear wouldn't always be optimal, maybe....


+10000000000

ive been saying this for months >.<

but diversifying creature stats, so that damage isnt the predominant stat... the horror :o :o :o


Imagine the uproar if people needed to have the amount of attack that they currently need with damage in order to hit a monster...

#12 fs_regnier7

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:21

Oh me my..... they need to take a page out of the PvPer handbook and stack sets for KE value... the horror. :lol:

#13 fs_gravely

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:23

That would be painfully easy, because of DC225....

#14 Spitfire666123

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:23


What the damn cows need to do is step up on the creature diversity, instead of the damn -load-up-on-HP- with maybe a hint of armor, and the occassional turtles.

then damage gear wouldn't always be optimal, maybe....


+10000000000

ive been saying this for months >.<

but diversifying creature stats, so that damage isnt the predominant stat... the horror :o :o :o


Imagine the uproar if people needed to have the amount of attack that they currently need with damage in order to hit a monster...


lol... now they'd know how i feel when hunting >.>

j/k

but itd be alot more interesting than... like mentioned on the set comparison thread... they wouldnt be using the same set for 350 levels either =\

and with DC 225... would it be really that hard... >.>

Oh me my..... they need to take a page out of the PvPer handbook and stack sets for KE value... the horror. :lol:


XD

#15 fs_regnier7

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:31

That would be painfully easy, because of DC225....


They could just make stats based on that.... not like most of the community can't get that potion.


....or "holy realms" or "Protected realms" where 'curses' like Flinch, terrorize, DC, and whatnot don't work. :idea:

#16 fs_coyotik

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 16:51

What the damn cows need to do is step up on the creature diversity, instead of the damn -load-up-on-HP- with maybe a hint of armor, and the occassional turtles.


They don't even -load-up-on-HP- at all! I've posted a summary of 850+ creeps and most of them are piece-of-cake when it comes to damage requirements.

And I just had a look at the same list with regard to attack. Acheron + 700 epic alone can beat 3200 defense without DC and KE. That's 73 out of 115 creeps on my list.

DC175 + KE175 make it 5800 defense beatable. That's another 29 creeps.

That leaves measly 11 creeps that are not beatable with basic buffs and the 3 items used for max damage. Sacrifice 105 dmg and I break defense 7200, 5 of the remaining 11 creeps.

And to kill the last 6 without any serious effort, it's enough to replace common gloves and amulet with Volker set, only 80 dmg behind the original easy gear.

And ALL THIS is without relic and without even DC200, let alone 225. With DC225 and KE175, 108 out of 115 creeps can't stand against the 3 items.

This clearly shows that new gear is added with total disregard to existing creeps - and new creeps are added with total disregard to existing gear. Back to the original problem of the content team not playing their own game at all.

#17 SirAdmiral

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 17:45

The game has already screwed itself in the beginning. Before Baron you really had to have a top notch set to continue the one-shot norm that was Fallensword through 130ish to 140ish. I think Baron was just coming out as I had gone through those levels so I wasn't fortunate enough to get to use it either. But, those levels were the most fun in the game. I had to work my ass off to gear together a suicide set to manage the time. I remember actually hunting Drake. First the first who knows how many levels now, the only important stats are attack and damage.

I remember the Helmet of Ilami, the Drake set, I don't remember the gloves but nobody is selling them.

#18 fs_oblivion05

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 18:31

Hunting now is so damn easy that I can setup 5k+attack, 10k+damage and about 2k+defense and 1 hit safely using NMV .. No wonder I never level :roll:

#19 NatalieEGH

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 23:13

Thank you for not flaming me, and discussing this the way I meant.

As I see it to add challenge to hunting there are 3 options:

1. Reduce the abilities of all the equipment. That would just make people angry, especially the people that spent a lot of time, effort, and/or money getting the equipment. Many good players might decide to quit. Not a desirable outcome.

2. Change the creatures (I love the Lair of Serpents idea LawDag26). This requires a LOT of work.

3. Remove the spells and potions that make it to where except for levels with quests, when I enter a level, I click on the level view button, and chart the SHORTEST way to the next level entrance, knowing I will have the required experience before I reach there (benefit of DB1200).

If the FS code is written as I suspect, there is a table of creatures, and abilities, and to modify it with 1400+ creatures would take hours to at most few days, and then weeks to play test and verify it was difficult and challenging but not impossible.

Again guessing at the FS code there is a table of allowed functions which set a bit/byte in the current session description for a player. That could be turned off in minutes and verified it was working correctly in just a few more. It would require another free skills reset for players with SSI and/or DD.

The reason, I suggested option 3 is simply the ease of accomplishment.

To maintain interest a game should be challenging. To be honest, were it not for my friends on FS and a desire to cast level 175 spells to help people, I would have quit a long time ago.

The PvP players talk about doing PvP because it is the only aspect of the game they find really challenging. PvE should be challenging too.

#20 fs_coyotik

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:02

2. Change the creatures (I love the Lair of Serpents idea LawDag26). This requires a LOT of work.


Yep, a lot of work, but IMO a good idea.

HCS should spend the time and do something like this:
1) Go through the gear level by level and calculate the maximum attainable attack + damage in three variants:
a) Using the top obtainable gear (epic quests, stuff that sells in the range of several hundreds of FSP)
B) Using medium gear (tens of FSP per piece, arena gear)
c) Using cheap/common gear (whole setup for a dozen FSP max).

2) Set their target goals for creep toughness - i.e. A% of creeps will be easy for all variants, B% of creeps will require CA with c), C% of creeps will require CA with B), 2x CA with c), D% creeps will require CA even with a) and be definite 2hits for c).
(Possibly add one more tier to include relic bonus or use of expensive pots).

3) Go through the creeplist creep by creep, pick the most logical (story-wise) creeps to be the toughest, adjust their stats so that they're not 1hittable with the best gear. Once the rough quota is filled, repeat with one grade lower stat requirements.

What should the numbers be? That's up to them, but I think that no more than 10% creeps should be total wimps, at least 10% creeps should be non-1hittable - and a significant portion, say, 30-40% should be in the category "1hittable only with a serious effort".
What we need is player differentiation. We need creeps that will allow skilled players to level up faster, so that progress in the monthly top ladders can be made with skill, too, not just endurance or donations.

If the FS code is written as I suspect, there is a table of creatures, and abilities, and to modify it with 1400+ creatures would take hours to at most few days, and then weeks to play test and verify it was difficult and challenging but not impossible.


I don't think it's necessary to remove skills - if the creeps are beefed up accordingly. With DD, however, it would perhaps be good to make it work only if the player is above a certain level - it wouldn't be good for low level players to be basically forced to buy DD to 1hit.

Edit: broken quote fix


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