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PvP Resource Change


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#81 fs_gravely

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 16:57

They think it is "hard earned", I guarantee you. If they lose levels, then they have fresh meat targets to hit, that might or might not fight back, and they will lose even more rating if they do fight back. Where as, if you disinfranchise the rating from the BB, and make it so they lose levels, they can gain the rating from hitting actives (fresh meat), and not fear losing it on the BB. :)


Just because they think or type something does not make it true =)

And again, ev, this will still cap rating gained from players at or around 1500 above the level 300 mark, whereas low level players that make agreements will gain the ability to far surpass higher level players. Your idea and suggestion is flawed and ignores several basic facts about the playerbase.

#82 Mister Doom

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 16:58

Doom, the preceding can also be taken as a response to you. I have no problems with rewards being profitable, it's just that right now they are far TOO profitable. Profit should never be the main goal of the ladder, and it definitely is right now.


Indeed, and to respond to your earlier statement about the helhearts.. I can assure you the very first one cost a lot more FSP than 2k. That is a grossly massive reward for placing first..

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#83 fs_evfisher

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 16:59

They think it is "hard earned", I guarantee you. If they lose levels, then they have fresh meat targets to hit, that might or might not fight back, and they will lose even more rating if they do fight back. Where as, if you disinfranchise the rating from the BB, and make it so they lose levels, they can gain the rating from hitting actives (fresh meat), and not fear losing it on the BB. :)


Just because they think or type something does not make it true =)

And again, ev, this will still cap rating gained from players at or around 1500 above the level 300 mark, whereas low level players that make agreements will gain the ability to far surpass higher level players. Your idea and suggestion is flawed and ignores several basic facts about the playerbase.


Fine, then scrap the rating system altogether, and make it 1 hit 1 point, with a PvP medal system. :)

#84 fs_gravely

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:00

Indeed, and to respond to your earlier statement about the helhearts.. I can assure you the very first one cost a lot more FSP than 2k. That is a grossly massive reward for placing first..


Exactly my point. That does nothing to encourage fair play and an actual representation of the PVP community, does it?

#85 shindrak

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:00

It is absurd to start binding things after people or guilds spend hundreds of FSP and thousands of stamina to get them. It is too late for these items. If you want bound rewards, make some new ones.

+1 !!
HCs u still screwed ppl !...

#86 kingtyrin

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:01

It is absurd to start binding things after people or guilds spend hundreds of FSP and thousands of stamina to get them. It is too late for these items. If you want bound rewards, make some new ones.

Yes, the thought of having a ladder that actually reflects those who are dominant at pvp like this was all supposed to be about is absurd compared to profit :|
The items are not bound, just the resources, much to the pvpers chagrin.
If they level link the recipes to character level though, it will be the next best thing to binding the items to fight farming and multis. . . . .


Binding the resources as others have said is almost pointless, the same farming/multi'ing incentives are still there.

I've no issue with retooling the scoring/reward system to reflect 'real' pvp. But there have only been two ladders worth of 'fake' pvpers winning tokens. If you fix the scoring/reward system, in the long run, the 'real' pvp'ers will reap most of the resources, without binding them.

Forgive me, my response was rude, and you are 100% right in that line of reasoning.

The cows dont seem to have that want to fix the ladder at heart, who knows

In point of fact, most PvP players that are active posters (and those I talk to in game) never asked for ANY type of rewards via the ladder.

The cows came up with the rewards in the second or third thread they made. I dont remember a single person being for them, and I remember quite alot being against having any.

#87 shindrak

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:01

The equipment/items made from the resources need to be bound also, or this fixes nothing.

-1
this will be screwed who bought sets and tagged for guild

#88 fs_gravely

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:02

Fine, then scrap the rating system altogether, and make it 1 hit 1 point, with a PvP medal system. :)


Three questions:

How does this promote skill at pvp?

How does this differentiate between the rating (or, in this case, hit) farmer, and the actual PvP player?

If rating is scrapped, on what basis are rewards handed out, and if they're that widely available, how do they maintain value?

#89 Mister Doom

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:02

Indeed, and to respond to your earlier statement about the helhearts.. I can assure you the very first one cost a lot more FSP than 2k. That is a grossly massive reward for placing first..


Exactly my point. That does nothing to encourage fair play and an actual representation of the PVP community, does it?


I agree to a certain degree but binding the items themselves removes ALL profit. The value of these items will drop eventually as more and more of them enter the game, just like everything else.

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#90 Lupp0

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:04

It is absurd to start binding things after people or guilds spend hundreds of FSP and thousands of stamina to get them. It is too late for these items. If you want bound rewards, make some new ones.


Hear hear, after the drama with the EPIC quests for Javelin etc i thought you people would have learned from your past mistakes, but i was soooooo wrong.
You cannot bring out stuff to bound it later, if you do, you will screw over lots of people.
Ive lost about 250fsp with the javelin's, i bet there are people out there that lost 10x that.
And i cannot even do the quest anymore since i destroyed the earth rune, and it was bound the next day (so idiot..) bound javelin, not bound, bound again, not bound, bound quest items... MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY lol :(

Now other people are screwed over again cuz they bought new sets (which stats have been adjusted) and later even bound the resources, jeez lol...

THINK or CONSULT before acting HCS, thank you!

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#91 fs_gravely

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:05

I agree to a certain degree but binding the items themselves removes ALL profit. The value of these items will drop eventually as more and more of them enter the game, just like everything else.


Not necessarily - arena and GvG applications, as well as efficiently hunting and being more successful at bounty hunting and general PvP all would provide profit, just not on an instant gratification basis.

The best balance I've seen so far is to re instate the level requirements for learning recipes. At least then level 5s can't invent agiads or helhearts.

#92 Mister Doom

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:06

Hear hear, after the drama with the EPIC quests for Javelin etc i thought you people would have learned from your past mistakes, but i was soooooo wrong.
You cannot bring out stuff to bound it later, if you do, you will screw over lots of people.
Ive lost about 250fsp with the javelin's, i bet there are people out there that lost 10x that.
And i cannot even do the quest anymore since i destroyed the earth rune, and it was bound the next day (so idiot..) bound javelin, not bound, bound again, not bound, bound quest items... MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY lol :(

Now other people are screwed over again cuz they bought new sets (which stats have been adjusted) and later even bound the resources, jeez lol...

THINK or CONSULT before acting HCS, thank you!


Yeah that still stings too, they didn't even give a full refund after drastically nerfing and thereby changing completely the purchased item. :(

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#93 fs_evfisher

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:07


Fine, then scrap the rating system altogether, and make it 1 hit 1 point, with a PvP medal system. :)


Three questions:

How does this promote skill at pvp?

How does this differentiate between the rating (or, in this case, hit) farmer, and the actual PvP player?

If rating is scrapped, on what basis are rewards handed out, and if they're that widely available, how do they maintain value?


It doesn't, but the rating system doesn't promote nor differentiate either. And the PvP medal would be handed out just like the Bounty Hunter medal, the SE Hunter medal and the other "skill required" medals.

Edited to add: Gravely, why don't you come up with a PvP system that recognizes "skill at PvP"? :)

#94 Mister Doom

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:07

I agree to a certain degree but binding the items themselves removes ALL profit. The value of these items will drop eventually as more and more of them enter the game, just like everything else.


Not necessarily - arena and GvG applications, as well as efficiently hunting and being more successful at bounty hunting and general PvP all would provide profit, just not on an instant gratification basis.

The best balance I've seen so far is to re instate the level requirements for learning recipes. At least then level 5s can't invent agiads or helhearts.


TBH, I've always thought ALL recipes should be level locked to the level of the item they create..

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#95 fs_gravely

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:09

It doesn't, but the rating system doesn't promote nor differentiate either. And the PvP medal would be handed out just like the Bounty Hunter medal, the SE Hunter medal and the other "skill required" medals.


And yet tweaks and hotfixes in progress have been militating more and more towards encouraging skill based play.

Standardizing 10 hit bounties.

Introducing sublevel rating decay.

Increasing rating gain for usage of 100 stam hits as opposed to 10.

All those steps differentiate the actual equipped and knowledgeable PvP player from the farmer and the bounty buyer.

#96 fs_gravely

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:10

TBH, I've always thought ALL recipes should be level locked to the level of the item they create..


In some situations it's been more appropriate then others; however, in the case of ladder rewards I believe we agree.

#97 fs_boscosuma

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:12

Doing some research, and from the conversations that have happened on the boards recently, I wanted to bring something up and see people's thoughts on it. I understand that there are two sides, but I am looking for more of people's thoughts on the mechanics than "Because I want to" answers.

1. Player A is up on the Bounty Board. Player B is his/her friend. Play B casts Unbreakable on player A and Conserve on themselves. Player B clears Player A's bounty. With those two buffs, Player A takes little to no XP and no gear is damaged.

Question: How is that a punishment for being on the board? As many have stated there is little care of PvP rating or Prestige, so what punishment occurs? Where is the down side?

I refer back to my original question to Hoof of, "What was the original intent of the bounty board?"

#98 fs_evfisher

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:13


It doesn't, but the rating system doesn't promote nor differentiate either. And the PvP medal would be handed out just like the Bounty Hunter medal, the SE Hunter medal and the other "skill required" medals.


And yet tweaks and hotfixes in progress have been militating more and more towards encouraging skill based play.

Standardizing 10 hit bounties.

Introducing sublevel rating decay.

Increasing rating gain for usage of 100 stam hits as opposed to 10.

All those steps differentiate the actual equipped and knowledgeable PvP player from the farmer and the bounty buyer.


And as long as you have any rating tied into the bounty board, you will still have farming on the BB going on. Irregardless of sublevel rating decay or not. :)

#99 fs_gravely

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:13

Edited to add: Gravely, why don't you come up with a PvP system that recognizes "skill at PvP"? :)


I refuse until and unless actual developer discussion regarding what the Cows want to see from the ladder occurs. Too many good suggestions have already been aborted because of sheer lack of attention on their part.

#100 fs_raiyt

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 17:13

You really want to fix the system? Here are my ideas. I'm not sure if they're all perfect, but I think there's some merit here. Warning- long rambling ahead.

Do something like TKP. Every PvP rating point over 1000 you get nets you X points towards PvP tokens. Those on the ladder get a bonus amount, such as a small mutliplier. 1.2x, 1.5x, 2x, in that range. Enough that yes, you do want to be on the ladder. Not enough that people are investing 100 FSP and hiring mercs constantly for the serious difference between 1/2/3/4/5. If #1 on the ladder gets 2 or 3 times as much as #15 or #20, that's sensible. 100 times as much causes a lot of abuse.

This would mean a low intensity PvPer who gets perhaps 1100-1200 rating will take a long time to build a PvP item, but it's possible like a part time Titan killer. A serious PvPer will achieve tokens faster. It permits everyone to participate, it encourages PvP for everyone, and it rewards effort proportionately.

Bounties- Cut ratings transfer for serious level differences. After a certain level, anyone less than something like half your level on the board would only yield 50% of the ratings transfer. There's still plenty of room for high levels to gain rating from this, but it does dampen the effect. I know a level 500 isn't going to have as many targets as a level 50, but a level 500 will beat that level 50 on the bounty board 100% of the time. Meanwhile, if the level 500 is placed on the bounty board, it's going to take someone with significantly more punch to knock them out. The bounty board is still a threat, but it is not the nearly guaranteed annihilation of rating that it is for a lower level. More targets, more risk of losing it. Fewer targets, less risk of losing it.

Seven day PvP limit just like GvG. After seven days, no rating transfer. Gold is fine, no sense in letting it rot in the hands of inactives, but no farming 25 day inactives. If your target has less than 1,000 PvP rating and you have more than 1,000 PvP rating, cut the transfer by 50%. Beyond the 500 point gap, this also reduces rewards for hitting punching bags.

Require all new players to exist for 14 days before they start transferring PvP rating. This prevents sudden loads of multi accounts from popping up for a fresh ladder and gives you guys time to run a sweep of new accounts to check for multies/proxies.

These changes won't fix everything, but the PvP rating points towards tokens would be the biggest fix for the problem by far. It worked for Titans, it will work here. Unbind resources and gear. With the incentive to cheat greatly lessened, it's going to be people with legitimate strategy that succeed.

Anyone have parts of this to pick apart? I think there's some good ideas here, but if any of it sounds off, please say so.


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