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Ladder is no PvP ladder!


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#41 fs_gravely

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 02:40

lol its starting work cuz he won :lol:


:roll: Step off.

I don't care if I placed or not. It works because I can objectively say that more players that have a legitimate interest in pvp - and not a purely profit driven and how-can-I-exploit-the-system mentality some people have- are placing.

Then again, you would know exactly jack about that, wouldn't you?

#42 fs_gravely

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 02:45

You know, it's funny how many people think I was in this for tokens. As if I haven't spent the last 8 months plus hitting people, whenever and wherever I felt like it.

Oh wait.


Okay, bleltch. You've cussed at me and insulted me enough.

How many times does someone RANDOMLY 100 STAM YOU? When is the last time that happened, off the board?

When it did happen, did WK take five?

When is the last time you LOST an off the board combat?

What is DOMINANT about hitting players who are unprepared and unskilled?

If you want to claim that PvP dominance should be gained via 100 stam farming people, go ahead, but don't do it while I'm drinking something, I don't need to snort Sunkist all over my monitor.

At least the board has the opportunity for skill to meet skill.

Off the board pvp definitely does not in 99% of cases.

#43 fs_cheechong

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 03:04

if you want BB to count for PvP rating then it should be limited to players in your pvp range for rating....sounds like the fairest way to do things...then its still "PvP" and "bounty hunting" when outside of the range....


*edit* by this I mean you only gain pvp rating for hitting players in your pvp range...be it the lower levels 10 lvl range +/-5 and upper levels 20 lvl range +/-10....


think this would clear up higher level players farming lower level bounties for rating

#44 fs_gravely

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 03:38

There is no one with any interest that I am aware of in pvp in my +/- 10 range.

If there is anyone, it will still be limited to a bare handful of players, maybe four at most.

How does this prove dominance, in any way, shape, or form?

How does this allow the ladder not to become a situation where

1st abc 1,500
2nd efg 1,500
3rd qrs 1,500
4th 123 1,500

etc, etc, etc....There's a rating floor, no one can lose rating, and there's very few if any people in their range to take pvp from, except at extremely low levels?

#45 Bleltch

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 04:04

You know, it's funny how many people think I was in this for tokens. As if I haven't spent the last 8 months plus hitting people, whenever and wherever I felt like it.

Oh wait.


Okay, bleltch. You've cussed at me and insulted me enough.

I'm seeing it from a lot of players here lately. We have a change in the pvp ladder that gives valuable rewards and all of a sudden the pvpers i admire and respect stop pvping so they can get up on the ladder. (hmmm i wonder what for) Watching some of em it's not very hard to figure out. :( And i wasn't cussing you, it's the system i have a problem with. I think i said this somewhere before.

BOUNTY HUNTERS HAVE THERE OWN FRIGGIN TOP LIST AND MEDAL. GIVE THE PVP LADDER TO THE PVPERS!!!

The name says what it's supposed to be for.

#46 fs_gravely

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 04:10

I honestly did not climb the ladder to get the rewards. I have the financial wherewithal to buy them if needs be. Did I use the tokens? Sure, why not? Better me than some farmer. And if and when I place in the future, I'll put them to use as well. I don't intend to make a profit. To me, the tokens are a side benefit.

My main goal was to see if I could do it.

I did get countered, repeatedly.

I did 100 stam multiple people.

I did get people 100 stamming me, on the board and off.

About the only thing I gave up were random gold hits. I had to be somewhat strategic.

Other than no gold hits (Which, admittedly, is a basic change to my gameplay, but I probably could have made the top 50 still gold hitting) I didn't change very much about my playstyle.

I realize you have issues with the system, man.

I respect that. I just have yet to see a better way. I've seen all the suggestions. There are tweaks here and tweaks there that would help, but even you must see how many low level multis and farmers would get sky high rating trading it between each other if rating and the board no longer interacted.

#47 Bleltch

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 04:51

About the only thing I gave up were random gold hits. I had to be somewhat strategic.

And what is that? What most of the players in the game consider pvp? And you gave it up so you could get higher on the pvp ladder? You dont see the slightest bit of a problem with that? And no, i'm not singling you. I just want to see the system fixed to have some logic to it. The name alone should say what the ladder should be about.

#48 fs_gravely

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 04:56

About the only thing I gave up were random gold hits. I had to be somewhat strategic.


And what is that? What most of the players in the game consider pvp? And you gave it up so you could get higher on the pvp ladder? You dont see the slightest bit of a problem with that? And no, i'm not singling you. I just want to see the system fixed to have some logic to it. The name alone should say what the ladder should be about.


Since when were gold hits the only "legitimate" form of PvP?

You don't see the slightest bit of problem with an ability to farm levelers in hunting suits for gold being called "Dominance"?

Why do gold hits take skill? They require patience and a good MT enhancement, and not much else since the Find Player update.

You're absolutely right, bleltch. The ladder should reflect active PvPers. ALL active pvpers. We're not done yet, but you and I both know that if the board is removed things will only get worse.

#49 fs_coyotik

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 08:36

I am convinced that bounties should be treated completely separately. It is simply NOT possible to integrate them to PvP ladder in a way that will be fair.

First, a core question should be answered. Who should be considered as dominant in PvP.

a) he who hits the most people off the board
B) he who hits the most people off the board and gets away with it
c) he who spends the most stam hitting people off the board
d) he who spends the most stam hitting people off the board and gets away with it
e) has the highest success rate of outgoing attacks off the board?
f) has the highest success rate of incoming attacks off the board?
g) has the highest success rate of combats off the board?

The "gets away with it" means that he is good at choosing targets that will not bounty him, or good at bribing targets that will not bounty him.

I think that the answer to this question should be based not only on the definition of dominance, but also should take into consideration that since rewards would come with it, it should be very hard to abuse, to buy your way into it...

#50 Khanate

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:47

I am convinced that bounties should be treated completely separately. It is simply NOT possible to integrate them to PvP ladder in a way that will be fair.


Lots of people from different level ranges on the ladder at the moment, seems fair to me. The only issue seems to be that gold hits can end up working against a player's ranking.

#51 Bleltch

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:55

You're absolutely right, bleltch. The ladder should reflect active PvPers. ALL active pvpers. We're not done yet, but you and I both know that if the board is removed things will only get worse.

Actually i think if pvp points are removed from the bounty board will be the first real fix to put the pvp ladder in the hands of the pvpers. Then let the adjustments begin.

#52 fs_gravely

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 12:15

Fact: Lower level players have an exponential advantage in # of targets as opposed to high level players.

If there's absolutely no way to gain (or lose) rating on the board, how do you plan to deal with this basic imbalance?

One of the single biggest issues with the update thus far have been the level 5 players who are obviously multies and farm the living bejesus out of new players.

How and why should a level 5 player who has participated in less than 1% of the total game be considered representative of FS in any way?

Also, you have yet to describe why gold hits are more valuable PvP than bounty hunting or deleveling, or why they take any skill whatsoever. (I'm of the opinion they mostly don't, it's more a gee-I-hope-I-don't-get-deflected-or-PG'd, neither of which anyone has any control over)

#53 fs_scarybug

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 13:17



You're absolutely right, bleltch. The ladder should reflect active PvPers. ALL active pvpers. We're not done yet, but you and I both know that if the board is removed things will only get worse.

Actually i think if pvp points are removed from the bounty board will be the first real fix to put the pvp ladder in the hands of the pvpers. Then let the adjustments begin.



Let's try to picture what would happen if there's only rating transfer off the board. You'd see enough people 10 stamming( and a few of them 100 stamming) (nearly) anyone they can get to in range. I'm ignoring the reduction of the targets' pool the higher the attacker's level is. I'm also ignoring the inevitable outcry by people that don't want anything to do with PvP for the purpose of staying on track. Let's look at what happens then, rating wise. If they hit someone that doesn't wish to participate in PvP, they'd get bountied, if they hit someone that does, they either may get bountied or they may get hit back. Off board PvP is quite easy enough as it is, you know your target, their stats, their equipment, their buffs, you can even take a guess from their bio and/or whatever you might know about them about whether they'd opt hit back or bounty. You can prepare accordingly, use the right equipment, the right buffs etc. Granted, I failed it lately, twice, due to desiring to max out thievery and MT, which limited my stats to a point where I couldn't cover up for an eventual not-one-hit-kill, but if you are only looking for the rating, it's pretty much a "click-to-win" kind of combat, after you prepare accordingly, since you're not restricted in the gear you can use. So people would PvP off the board, get rating, get on the board, and not lose rating. Is this PvP dominance? No, because there was practically no challenge in the part of this kind of PvP that involves rating transfer.

In the case the target hits back, the attacker would want to have a lower rating than the target to simply come out with a rating net gain. While this may work as a PvP dominance meter - finding the right targets to hit that would hit back but gain back less rating than they lost from the initial hit - the large majority of ladder wannabees are simply going to opt to trade rating for xp loss on the board, and this would be at least as much a skewed perspective of the PvP ladder than the "lucky/persistent bounty hunter" ladder it is now, for the most part. And what happens if/when everyone on the ladder goes above the 1500 mark or whatever the floor is nowadays? They'd only have to find people that actually PvPed? This wouldn't work too well in most ranges.

That being said I'm not saying the current system is good enough, I'm saying this direction is not going to get us anywhere more sane

#54 fs_coyotik

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 13:43

Fact: Lower level players have an exponential advantage in # of targets as opposed to high level players.

If there's absolutely no way to gain (or lose) rating on the board, how do you plan to deal with this basic imbalance?


a) increase target range dynamically. There's no need for it to be 5 at 1-199 and 10 at 200-?.
It can just as well be 4+level/50 or plain level/25. (level 1 can attack other level1 only, level 25 can attack 24-26, level 100 can attack 96-104... and level 1000 could attack 960-1040. Not a big deal in regard of relative strenght difference.

B) Implement gear restrictions and LUP degradation when attacking below. (I think it would be a good idea to do this anyway). This would effectively remove the problem with PvP and GvG issues around levels where powerful gear is introduced. Want to attack below you? Any items that are above the target's level do not count and your LUP are degraded by (target/you) ratio.

With the latter put into place, the range for attacks could be more or less unlimited, or at least increased even more than 40.

One of the single biggest issues with the update thus far have been the level 5 players who are obviously multies and farm the living bejesus out of new players.



I would not object to restricting the ladder to level 100+ (but, then, I'm sure that multies would exist there as well).

Also, you have yet to describe why gold hits are more valuable PvP than bounty hunting or deleveling, or why they take any skill whatsoever. (I'm of the opinion they mostly don't, it's more a gee-I-hope-I-don't-get-deflected-or-PG'd, neither of which anyone has any control over)


Yep, the whole combat system as it is built lacks any challenge unless the target is online and resisting, and it doesn't really matter whether it's gvg, bounty or gold hit. Losing in attack against somebody your level who wasn't buffed well is either a truckload of bad luck or a truckload of negligence :)

#55 Bleltch

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 15:42

Lets change the the names to be representative of what it is then. Bounty hunter ladder, bounty dominance medal, and bounty tokens.

Then can we get a some kind of top list for the pvpers? WITH NO REWARDS!!!

#56 Khanate

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 15:48

Lets change the the names to be representative of what it is then. Bounty hunter ladder, bounty dominance medal, and bounty tokens.

Then can we get a some kind of top list for the pvpers? WITH NO REWARDS!!!


If you can find me a way to rate off the board only PvPers that works without falling into most of the numerous pitfalls already mentionned... well I don't actually believe you can :wink:

#57 GreatGazoo

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 09:18

In my opinion the Bounty Board and PvP in general have been totally transformed into a monster, with the additions of Gloat, Honor and Rewards. I have experienced first hand everyday pvpers, at each others throats from it. People that were once close allies and friends are accusing others of raping points by using Gloat, "taking advantage of the system" and higher leveled players cleaning anyone and everyone to climb to the top. We also now also have multiple accounts sprouting up new everyday, making the BB a farce along with the ladder that was supposed to be "fixed".

To be honest it may be time to rid the ladder of rewards altogether. Possibly make the sets that were made from rewards as an introduction into the game and start giving away the Resourses to invent them as Arena and/or Temple Blessings. That way they aren't phased out of the game and are still difficult to obtain, while still keeping them available to the masses.

As well, nothing good is coming from the buffs "Gloat" and "Honor", all this does is give someone an unnecessary reason to use 100 stams on and off the board for "unfair" rating when used for a ladder type purpose. One successful 100 stam hit takes a normal player close to the top when used and definately doesn't prove anyones PVP prowess.

As it sits now nothing was fixed, but instead possibly made worse by the updates. While it was supposed to be a step towards helping fix a problem it seems to have snowballed in the wrong direction and should be stopped before it gets any worse. The ladder as it is now is a reflection of how well you BH, what level you are and who can get the most 100 stams in using a buff that never should have been. Definately not a true dictation of PVP altogether as it was intended to be.

I unfortunately cannot offer up any solutions to help fix the ladder towards it being a just measurement of PvP skill, but it should include all types of it from BHing, Pilfering gold, Arena, GvG's, and some sort of Won/Loss ratio when protecting/taking relics.

~ Gazoo

#58 fs_coyotik

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 10:51

Lets change the the names to be representative of what it is then. Bounty hunter ladder, bounty dominance medal, and bounty tokens.

Then can we get a some kind of top list for the pvpers? WITH NO REWARDS!!!


If you can find me a way to rate off the board only PvPers that works without falling into most of the numerous pitfalls already mentionned... well I don't actually believe you can :wink:


What numerous pitfalls? The only obvious pitfall is lack of target for higher-level players - and that's something that can be resolved (and I already mentioned how).

#59 boeffie

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 10:57

I nearly posted yesterday, GG, and the base opinion is the same, but I left it, as I am not so to speak 'a true pvp-er' as it seems to have been understood before, I am now at a loss to say who is, or isn't, a PvPer anymore, reading some of the above posts (mainly the one that is 'leaving out goldhits', as if that is a minor thing)

As all changes affect a lot of people though, I'll add my two cents.

I liked to play this game in as many aspects as I could, apart from arena (too much hassle) and inventing (on anything other than individual items, not enough AH), which included some PvPing (goldhits or retaliation) or BHunting (straight or not-so-friendly).

So, I've tried out the new ladder system, to see the working of it. Sad to say, this has just killed my occasional fun.
Motives get attributed, any clear is rated 'farming' as I'm high level, or can be taken as helping someone else to get up higher by taking competitors down. People get bitchy, (counter)bounty anyone if there is a slight chance they or their friends might profit from it, or just because they've been (counter)bountied themselves continuously.
Add to that the near-impossibility at my level of even getting on the ladder (which in itself could be a stimulating goal) without pouring in a load of fsp and setting up a full system (payment??) of 'allies' who won't bounty back - or are not 'allowed' to do so due to guildpolicy - and you end up with a lot of aggravation for nothing at all.

Only thing that has NOT happened, has been any straight goldhits.

Luckily, some ppl have recently been trying to hit, with advance warning so we both can set up a kit we think might work, buff up, and see how one of us can get lucky (that or find out how maths has failed :) ) There's not too many people in range who don't worry about the xp-loss connected to it though.

This, as opposed to thievery on people in hunting gear (still a valid occupation of course, just not very skillfull), is what I would call the only 'real' pvp and it was also what could be got from the BB on on-line targets, before these changes (though it can still be done now, if you want to put up with the added aggravation of pm's with excuses/threats why you should stop, or people going to way further lengths to try and slow your clearing just to get some rating back, as opposed to just dance a bit ).

All in all, I don't think this has done the FS community any good at all, save for some levelers who got freaked out by the occasional goldhits that were the norm before, though I think those players benefited way more once they realised how little that really affected them, and started to do a little bit of it themselves.




sorry, bit more than 2 cts :(

#60 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 13:05

Honestly, I'd be willing to bet that most of the problems will go away as soon as the rewards become not worth the trouble.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a fix, it just means that some people may be overreacting.


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