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Why have a level range on PvP at all?


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#1 NatalieEGH

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:02

Why not simply do it like when hunting creatures. I regularly hunt Hell Hounds, Lesser Fire Demons, and Vampiric Raptors. I actually lose gold due to having to repair items, and get virtually no XP. If you used a formula similar to that for hunting below level, for the gold gain you would eliminate a people hitting people way below their level.

What I mean is if say for hitting someone your level or higher the maximum gold stolen (excluding Master Thief or whatever the enhancement is activating), is 1% for each point of stamina used (I know it is a lot less than 1% but for example I am using it as it makes easier math), then if I have 1,000,000 gold and I am attacked with 10 stamina, I lose 100k gold. If I am attacked by someone 1 level above me, I lose 75,000 gold, if by someone 2 levels above I lose 56,250 gold, 3 levels they get 42,188, ... at 10 levels above I lose 5631 gold. For 20 levels above, I lose 317 gold.

Never could anyone lose more gold than hunting someone at level than whatever the percentage is for being attacked by someone at level. This will keep people from losing almost all their gold and PvP rating as well as possibly losing several levels because they were attacked by someone 20 levels below them.

Also it makes it so it is useless to attack someone with a significantly lower level.

The same calculation could be done of PvP rating lost and XP lost. When I attack the Hell Hounds I believe I get 1 gold and 1 xp. The gold is immediately taken as tax.

Yes a level 1000 player can still take 1 gold and 1 xp from a level 1 player. But why would they ever consider using 10 stamina for that.

Also the drop off for levels does not need to be 25% like it is for hunting below level. Since the limit on loss of percentage of gold and xp was reduced it could be a drop off at only 5 or 10 percent per level difference. That would extend out the range on 1,000,000 gold on hand to something like hunting 150-200 levels below level before the amount would be capped at a minimum of 1 gold and 1 XP lost. I would however recommend at least 10% or it might be too much of a temptation for players to attack people 100 levels below them.

#2 sweetlou

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:37

Sure, add xp gain on PvP wins and let's really play ;)

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#3 NatalieEGH

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:42

To be honest, for a long time, I thought they got XP gain when they attacked me.

While I got upset over my loss of XP and gold and how PvP is run here, I was really disappointed to discover the attackers did NOT get a portion of the XP stolen from me.

#4 fs_regnier7

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:43

I don't think PvPers should personally gain any Xp stolen, but I do believe a portion should go to their guild, at least.

#5 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:54

Honestly, this seems like an overly complicated system for something that's already in place, and that really isn't the most pressing problem with pvp.

#6 NatalieEGH

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:12

I was probably convoluted explaining. It is not complicated, at least from a programming perspective. HCS just has to determine using their current program what the loss in gold, xp, and PvP rating would be. Then they use the subroutine/subprogram/class/function/method (whatever they call it), currently used for giving rewards for creatures below current level and apply it to the gold, xp, and PvP rating.

All it would require is a few lines of code changed/added to call current code and maybe a quick routine to determine level difference. A competent programmer that knows the code should be able to make the changes in less than 5 minutes, counting compile and linking time. Maybe if properly tested another 15 minutes for thorough testing the routine works as intended (there are only 3 conditions to test and 3 cases of each condition).

Then you open up PvP to all levels with little reason to abuse the system. And yes, I know this will allow anyone on FS to be able to attack me. That is a separate issue.

#7 sweetlou

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:21

Why are you so hellbent on changing PvP? Just a question btw, nothing personal. Have you ever tried it, attacked another player?

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#8 NatalieEGH

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:49

Only people I paid FSP to in advance and had received permission. That was just to get the PvP rating to do the quests that needed a specific rating.

I have done PvP in other games and enjoyed it. But they always had the basic PvP slanted towards the defender so when you succeeded it really was an accomplishment. Of course they never had something like the bounty board.

I have done some of the GvG, which is like PvP without actually hurting the player. It is way to unbalanced.

I just want it balanced, with both sides having reasonable chances of winning. Actually SLIGHTLY in the favor of the defender because the attacker chooses time and can prepare, so if all things are EXACTLY even the defender wins.

Like I have said, I consider the PvP system broken and needing to be fixed. I think it is an important part of any MORPG. The reason I try to get it fixed is that maybe then I will be able to join in with a clear conscience that I am not just being a bully and stealing from people. Heck in one game where you were able to play multiple characters, I played a thief. It took me months to get her to the level my fighter did in about a week. I was much prouder of her than the fighter, I earned every level she gained. The fighter just did attack the creature and gain levels. Oooh so much was required.

Oh and I thought you took my first statements serious when you said about just getting the XP. Dummy me.

#9 Zukira

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:56

NatalieEGH, you're one of my favorite people to talk to in game. I respect you and I appreciate everything you do for people in the game. My hat goes off to you for your generosity towards others with your fund raisers to help those who have experienced being hacked.

I have to admit though - you should be really glad you're not in my PvP range and that I'm not a PvP player here, because almost every time you start a topic about pvp I catch myself thinking "that is one giant target you're painting on yourself." I hate to be the one to have to tell you that, but someone needs to say it.

You can't "fix" pvp by taking it out of the game, or taking its restraints off. Neither extreme works in a game like this. There are things that could be added/changed that might make it less daunting. For example, Safe zones like in SS2 or items/potions that could be purchased which afford a limited time of protection and then a similar 'cool down' time where you're unable to protect yourself with another such item/potion for a similar length of time and are limited in what you can do in game while it is in effect. A safe zone might be a little block tacked on every few levels where you can shelter in a cave, or something. After a certain length of time if you haven't moved on it instantly ports you to krul for the usual stamina cost. They could be a gold sink. Pay a small fee for a stay in one of the safe zones. The more you pay, the longer your stay before it ports you to krul. A potion could make it so you couldn't be attacked, but also make it so you can't attack anything at all, be it creatures or players or join groups for a certain amount of time as well. after the duration of the potion wore out you wouldn't be able to activate it again for a similar length of time and have a penalty for having used a blocker potion of losing 10% more xp/gold when attacked and not being able to enter a safe zone during the cool down.

I might not agree with PvP here, but I can agree with the level range 'protection' that is afforded to players. Taking out the limitation would be like opening the barn door and letting the bull out into a playground full of preschoolers.

Gorey, fantastically cruel and extremely deadly.

Limiting the rewards, while a great idea if the idea were to be applied isn't a perfect solution either. Some people are by very nature bullies and jerks, be it online or off. They won't -care- that they're not getting all that they could just because they're picking on someone who can't fight back because they're no where near them in level range. The bully looks at the frustration, misery, anger, and pain of the person they've harassed as being the reward. For those people the "rage-quit" is the firing off of Master Thief. Your suggestion would essentially be not relying just on the diminishing returns but also upon the player's code of honor and their ethics.

The cows want people to play; they want our money, and they want that of our friends and family that we get to join in to play as well. They add things, try to make PvP better for those that PvP. (it was overdue) I don't participate in PvP here, so I might not agree with or care for the changes but this too shall pass, the new will wear off. Until then we just suck it up, grit our teeth and let those who enjoy it have their fun. In a few months 'pvp is broken' will become a battle cry again.

PvP here is much better set up and thought out than it is in another game I play - and on that game, I am a hard core PvPer. There are no limits on who you can hit once the 7 days of newbie protection ends, everyone is fair game for everyone. The newbie protection is not perfect though - there are ways to get around it and with a little skill and practice or a lot of luck anyone can pick on a newbie who is still in protection, until they quit. On that game, pvp is broken to a degree that has never been seen on FS. Its not an hcs game, and it is browser based so I can't tell you the name of it though. That other game not only has a very failed setup for the PvP, it has security loopholes that make a person want to say thank you every day to the cows; the price of their form of upgrade point makes the fsp that you pay cash for here seem CHEAP if one were to buy them, and there was a hacking on it a couple of weeks ago that make the slew that went on here on FS seem like nothing. I'm telling you about this as an example. Up until the huge hacking on the server there that I play, the league (guild) I'm a member of there was not only the top league, but also the most honorable, relatively friendly. Newbie benign league there. That changed.

The hacking that went on impacted everyone in the game and the devs didn't do anything about it for a long time. The prices of power-ups are that much more than fsp that it was easily on par with what it would be like if for example all 10 of the top 10 fs guilds got hacked and destroyed. Not just their gear removed and sold and structures destroyed and members kicked but the players losing all player upgrades, and being de-leveled to level 1 and then the cows not helping set things right even with a signed confession from the hacker. The sentiment of the majority of the player base at that time was this: "I don't want to see anyone else get hooked on this game and lose money. I have the ability to make them hate this game, and I'm going to." The only limits were their form in stamina, the player's built up stats, and the number of hours in a day that a person could be online. The bull, so to speak, was set loose on the playground with no where for the children to hide. Under the circumstances, ever player that we were able to get to quit, or to play it from a different hosting site than the one with the poor security was a win, we didn't care that we were losing resources hand over fist. I was right there in the thick of it. I felt dirty and at the same time, I had an awful lot of fun making people want to quit playing that server. I was reaping what I wanted to from it. The ends certainly justified the means. The game got fixed, I became the helpful person I'd always been except when someone does something to get on my radar there.

Your proposed system actually echos their setup, to a degree, and has the same potential for disaster. As I said, the cows (like the devs of that game) want people to play, and pay to play in some cases. Our reign of terror was fully part of the game mechanics, but it got the attention of the devs there because it hit them in the wallet. Some player or group of players gets ticked off with your proposed suggestion in place in the PvP setup, you've got the same disaster waiting to happen. However, the more one complains about changes that affect PvP the more the PvPing part of the community takes notice and goes around waiting and watching for you to be in their range for a little 'love tap'. At least right now, unless you get on the BountyBoard, that range is limited. Be glad of it. It is one of the things the cows are doing right.

Furthermore, PvP-er mentality tends to be the same no matter where one is playing. So while I don't pvp here, I can still tell you some things that you and anyone else who doesn't want to participate in PvP should know. These are things I bear in mind when I play here. Since I prefer not to participate in PvP I do my utmost to not be a target. This isn't always possible, but that is part of the game as well. I accept it. I move on from it. It only has power over me if I let myself be angry about it.

Don't make a target out of yourself - prepare to be a worthy opponent.

If you're too easy to fight, you'll get fought. If you're difficult to fight, only the best or the greediest will try.

Fighting back earns a person respect (usually).

You can ask friends for help, for advice, for assistance but don't let them fight your personal wars for you - there's no better way to make a true PvP-er want to make you rage-quit.

Complaining about PvP in a game where PvP isn't an afterthought, but was a part of the original plan for the game = Target.

Suggesting changes that make fewer people targets = Target.

Letting those who attack you know it upsets you = Target again.

Beyond that its common sense stuff that you're always told like don't have too much gold on hand.

Even then, even with no other reason than you're in their range, people can and will attack. Don't argue with them if you ask why and they answer you with a statement such as "because I can" after all, if the game allows it, then they're right. They're just playing the game how it is designed. Arguing with them about it being worth their while or not just wastes your time and will make the red brighter and the target on you bigger. We don't have to like it, we just have to remember that we enjoy the rest of the game, even if we don't want to participate or retaliate in that one part.

And yes - I'm well aware that having posted that wall of text I've actually put a target on myself too.

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#10 asterxemil

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:23

RANT MUCH?

#11 Zukira

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:26

RANT MUCH?


Just verbose and aware of where the caps lock key is

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#12 asterxemil

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:28

RANT MUCH?


Just verbose and aware of where the caps lock key is



lol at you... i have no CAPS key xD

#13 Zukira

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:35

RANT MUCH?


Just verbose and aware of where the caps lock key is



lol at you... i have no CAPS key xD


Getting off topic with this, just an entire post in nothing but caps sure makes it look like a caps lock was on. Anyway - unless it has something to do with the topic I'll not be replying again to the thread.

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#14 asterxemil

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:40

My apologies for ruining your large boisterous message, i wanted to post a response but your message was too darn big to comprehend :P


Anyways, i'd like to see changes to PvP as much as everyone else, but this suggestion to this game is unethical, or rather not entirely good for the game

#15 sweetlou

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:57

Only people I paid FSP to in advance and had received permission. That was just to get the PvP rating to do the quests that needed a specific rating.

I have done PvP in other games and enjoyed it. But they always had the basic PvP slanted towards the defender so when you succeeded it really was an accomplishment. Of course they never had something like the bounty board.

I have done some of the GvG, which is like PvP without actually hurting the player. It is way to unbalanced.

I just want it balanced, with both sides having reasonable chances of winning. Actually SLIGHTLY in the favor of the defender because the attacker chooses time and can prepare, so if all things are EXACTLY even the defender wins.

Like I have said, I consider the PvP system broken and needing to be fixed. I think it is an important part of any MORPG. The reason I try to get it fixed is that maybe then I will be able to join in with a clear conscience that I am not just being a bully and stealing from people. Heck in one game where you were able to play multiple characters, I played a thief. It took me months to get her to the level my fighter did in about a week. I was much prouder of her than the fighter, I earned every level she gained. The fighter just did attack the creature and gain levels. Oooh so much was required.

Oh and I thought you took my first statements serious when you said about just getting the XP. Dummy me.

Again, I'm not singling you out on purpose because there are other players that have a similar opinion. So your answer to my question is no, you've never attacked a player in PvP unless it was pre-arranged. Interesting that players with absolutely no active experience playing PvP declare that it is broken and want to try and "fix" it. Throwing descriptions of players that PvP as bullies or thieves is typical from the inexperienced. A moral judgment is made and used as an excuse for not actively participating. This is a role playing game, don't forget, but I'll leave that argument aside for the time being.

I maintain that while not perfect, in fact far from it, that PvP and it's mechanics are fine the way they are set up. Tweaks and minor changes are expected in the development of the game but a major, drastic rethink isn't about to happen. Not as I see it.

PvP is not always about defending but more based on retribution. Most inexperienced PvPists are incapable or unwilling to retaliate, so instead 'this is unfair' and 'I don't want to participate' become the common mantras.

I would prefer to see the devs require more ACTIVE participation in the PvP aspect. ALL players must indirectly participate by possibly being attacked. I would propose that xp be gained from PvP attacks at a much higher xp earning per stam used then in leveling. I've been a proponent of xp gained in PvP play for ages. In fact I feel a fresh thread coming when I have the time, lol.

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#16 Admiral Memo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:19

PvP is not always about defending but more based on retribution. Most inexperienced PvPists are incapable [of retaliating] or unwilling to retaliate, so instead 'this is unfair' and 'I don't want to participate' become the common mantras.

This where I get riled up, since it applies to me, mainly.

Imagine in real life getting into the ring and do some wrestling or boxing with some guys. Yeah... You should get rewarded for that if you win. You dominated people who want a fair or semi-fair shot at fighting.

Alright, now imagine beating up a special ed kid, who is incapable of fighting back. Would that make you "dominant" in any way? I think not. I don't think there should be any rewards in the game for a similar situation.

So, as you say, it's about retribution rather than defense. Well, if you're beaten up by a guy in the game and he took away your money, even if you wanted to get retribution, what would you use to get it with? You want to pay for a bounty hunter to go out and take away stuff that likely doesn't even matter to him (XP, levels, gold)? How do you pay for it? I know! With the money... You know... The money that you had that was stolen by the guy.

So if you can't defend yourself, you're still up a creek on the retribution front, since the guy stole your money that you would use to pay for the bounty. So now you can't pay for a bounty because you have no money. So the guy just gets away with it.

This reminds me of something that happened to my dad. His car was parked on the street while he was at work. He gets out at the end of the day and goes to his car. His back window has been broken into and something was stolen. Now, he wasn't too upset at the theft itself, because the item stolen wasn't of any great value and he could just get another one later. He kept a Dust-Buster that had a cigarette-lighter adapter on the cord to clean up any messes in the car, so that's what he would have used to clean up the broken glass. Here's the problem: the vacuum was what was stolen. That's what really pissed him off. He couldn't use the vacuum to clean up the mess from the break-in because the guy stole the vacuum, and only the vacuum.

So he's robbed. He'd clean up the mess with the vacuum. He can't because that was stolen. If it wasn't stolen, there wouldn't be a mess to clean up.

You can't fix a problem if the solution to the problem being missing is the problem itself.

#17 NatalieEGH

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:31

Luisspamer,

As I said I have done GvG. (I 100% agree arranged attacks so I could get enough rating to do the quests was NOT PvP. It was me paying FSP to hit someone one, that was all but a guaranteed win. I did not change equipment and neither did they but I was wearing FF Perfect Lesser Santork and they were not, so who needed to change equipment).

Please explain the way PvP is different from GvG outside that it takes XP and gold. Where is the challenge, that makes you hold your breath hoping you do not lose or if you lose you do not lose big? I do not see that at all with GvG. It is simply looking at a person's stats, choosing equipment and spells to give enough attack to overcome defense, enough armor to defense and/or armor to withstand an attack back if you miss or their dodge and/or first strike activates, and enough damage to overcome their armor and kill within a few rounds.

To me it is almost impossible to not win. And because of that it is boring and feels like bullying and being a thief to me.

How is PvP different?

That is why I am even in favor of a person losing as much as 1/2 their gold on a successful PvP attack if the attacker does not know what they have to overcome or how much gold the person is holding. They are taking a real risk of losing and should be rewarded accordingly for not only deciding to do the attack but also for succeeding.

Without seeing how it is different from GvG except for the stealing of gold and xp, I cannot in good conscience participate. To me it would be wrong. Just as wrong as if I were to deliberately hurt someone in real life. Just saying "Go out and do it, you will like it." is the same to me as a drug dealer saying "Hey try some of my drugs, you will like it."

I know I can not explain to you but it feels dishonorable. I admit that cracks like were made about stealing the gold from guilds I am helping because they were hacked does not improve my opinion either. All I could think when I read some of the comments was, "Yes, and you were probably one of the people that were buying the FF Perfect Epics for just a couple of FSP and refusing to give them back. No better than the people that did the hack as you would probably do it if you knew how.".

I am "listening" and want to understand if it is different.

#18 abhorrence

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:11

Is:

Capturing a pawn in chess bulling?
Jumping a player in checkers?
Bluffing in poker?


Why is attacking in PvP considered bulling?

It's with in the rules, it's been stated as such by HCS personally. Playing within the rules doesn't make me a thief, a bully, morally corrupt, ect..

It means I am playing the game the way the game was designed...

GET OVER IT.

#19 Snowy900

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:31

why do levelers always quote real life,, this is a game,, there is nothing in this game stopping anyone from pvping against anyone else in the game apart from a level cap,, i dont count doing bounties as pvping because most of the time its just high level n00bs completing bounties on low level n00bs just to get on the cursed pvp ladder so they can create a piece of equipment to sell on for profit, the new pvp ladder has destroyed the BB completely

#20 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:10

Is:

Capturing a pawn in chess bulling?
Jumping a player in checkers?
Bluffing in poker?


Why is attacking in PvP considered bulling?

It's with in the rules, it's been stated as such by HCS personally. Playing within the rules doesn't make me a thief, a bully, morally corrupt, ect..

It means I am playing the game the way the game was designed...

GET OVER IT.


*raises hand*

technically it does make you a theif, it's just within the realm of acceptability to be one in this game. :wink:


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