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Why have a level range on PvP at all?


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#21 Khanate

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:41

Luisspamer,

As I said I have done GvG. (I 100% agree arranged attacks so I could get enough rating to do the quests was NOT PvP. It was me paying FSP to hit someone one, that was all but a guaranteed win. I did not change equipment and neither did they but I was wearing FF Perfect Lesser Santork and they were not, so who needed to change equipment).

Please explain the way PvP is different from GvG outside that it takes XP and gold. Where is the challenge, that makes you hold your breath hoping you do not lose or if you lose you do not lose big? I do not see that at all with GvG. It is simply looking at a person's stats, choosing equipment and spells to give enough attack to overcome defense, enough armor to defense and/or armor to withstand an attack back if you miss or their dodge and/or first strike activates, and enough damage to overcome their armor and kill within a few rounds.


Well GvG has very few risks, maybe except losing 1 FSP and 500 stamina. On the other hand any PvP attack can result in 5 levels lost.

To me it is almost impossible to not win. And because of that it is boring and feels like bullying and being a thief to me.

How is PvP different?

That is why I am even in favor of a person losing as much as 1/2 their gold on a successful PvP attack if the attacker does not know what they have to overcome or how much gold the person is holding. They are taking a real risk of losing and should be rewarded accordingly for not only deciding to do the attack but also for succeeding.

Without seeing how it is different from GvG except for the stealing of gold and xp, I cannot in good conscience participate. To me it would be wrong. Just as wrong as if I were to deliberately hurt someone in real life. Just saying "Go out and do it, you will like it." is the same to me as a drug dealer saying "Hey try some of my drugs, you will like it."

I know I can not explain to you but it feels dishonorable. I admit that cracks like were made about stealing the gold from guilds I am helping because they were hacked does not improve my opinion either. All I could think when I read some of the comments was, "Yes, and you were probably one of the people that were buying the FF Perfect Epics for just a couple of FSP and refusing to give them back. No better than the people that did the hack as you would probably do it if you knew how.".

I am "listening" and want to understand if it is different.


Without taking away at least other player's gold it'd just be attacking others for the pleasure of attacking others, which would soon turn into people not caring about being attacked and then to not many people doing so (and the death of the bounty board). Experience less in itself is the deterrent to gold loss as you can take away much more on the bounty board than was taken from you.

About level range, no it's a terrible idea. Players in a given level range get the same amount of gold from hunting, they see it as being of same value. Players in all level ranges are also pretty easy to beat in hunting setups. You can see where this leads, lower levels attacking higher levels for negligible amounts of gold. Furthermore higher levels would not be able to attack lower levels for their proceedings from the hunt as it's unfair due to stats advantage as you put it. It's a terrible idea and needs to stop coming up.

If you hate PvP then you should not really be making senseless suggestions, I do not see at all where you are going. I don't like PvP neither, but I think of it as a system that needs to work for the health of the game. You seem more intent on changing it around without a clear purpose.

#22 Admiral Memo

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 08:27

Is:

Capturing a pawn in chess bulling?
Jumping a player in checkers?
Bluffing in poker?


Why is attacking in PvP considered bulling?

It's with in the rules, it's been stated as such by HCS personally. Playing within the rules doesn't make me a thief, a bully, morally corrupt, ect..

It means I am playing the game the way the game was designed...

GET OVER IT.

why do levelers always quote real life,, this is a game,, there is nothing in this game stopping anyone from pvping against anyone else in the game apart from a level cap,, i dont count doing bounties as pvping because most of the time its just high level n00bs completing bounties on low level n00bs just to get on the cursed pvp ladder so they can create a piece of equipment to sell on for profit, the new pvp ladder has destroyed the BB completely

You want levelers to stop appealing to real life? You want to play games? Alright... Let's play chess. You're white. Your move.
Posted Image
THIS is how it feels to be a leveler being harassed by PvPers.

#23 sweetlou

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 08:45

Oh boy, another thread from the dead. Seek help.

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#24 Snowy900

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:07

Is:

Capturing a pawn in chess bulling?
Jumping a player in checkers?
Bluffing in poker?


Why is attacking in PvP considered bulling?

It's with in the rules, it's been stated as such by HCS personally. Playing within the rules doesn't make me a thief, a bully, morally corrupt, ect..

It means I am playing the game the way the game was designed...

GET OVER IT.

why do levelers always quote real life,, this is a game,, there is nothing in this game stopping anyone from pvping against anyone else in the game apart from a level cap,, i dont count doing bounties as pvping because most of the time its just high level n00bs completing bounties on low level n00bs just to get on the cursed pvp ladder so they can create a piece of equipment to sell on for profit, the new pvp ladder has destroyed the BB completely

You want levelers to stop appealing to real life? You want to play games? Alright... Let's play chess. You're white. Your move.

THIS is how it feels to be a leveler being harassed by PvPers.



so in real life,, you get mugged,, do you just put your hands up and cry this isnt fair or do you call the police who then arrest and punish the culprit?

you can do the same with pvp,,, but its better, you can fight back or you can bounty and get your guild to take 5 levels off that person who hit you.
this is better than real life cos you havent been hurt and you havent lost any real possesions, and you get the satisfaction of getting revenge on the person who pvped you,, also if you hit back you gain respect from the pvper and they are less likely to hit you again and may even become friends with you. also if you time the hit right when perhaps they are levelin up you can steal a fair amount of gold off them. all it takes is for you to have the balls to do it

#25 fs_sollimaw

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:12

I would have no problem removing the upper limit of PvP range so long as if you hit someone higher level, they get to hit you back.

#26 fs_regnier7

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:13

eh.... the upper limit should stay. Those up at EOC would have their gear pelted by nubs daily. lol

Just seems unneeded

#27 Admiral Memo

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:29

so in real life,, you get mugged,, do you just put your hands up and cry this isnt fair or do you call the police who then arrest and punish the culprit?

Yeah, but in real life, the police don't CHARGE you for their services. (Well, at least not directly. There's tax and all, but that's neither here nor there.)

And if we're comparing this to the real world, if someone tried to mug me, I'd just take a gun and shoot them in the head. Problem solved, permanently.

you can do the same with pvp,,, but its better, you can fight back or you can bounty and get your guild to take 5 levels off that person who hit you.
this is better than real life cos you havent been hurt and you havent lost any real possesions, and you get the satisfaction of getting revenge on the person who pvped you,, also if you hit back you gain respect from the pvper and they are less likely to hit you again and may even become friends with you. also if you time the hit right when perhaps they are levelin up you can steal a fair amount of gold off them. all it takes is for you to have the balls to do it

Yeah... You can "you can fight back"... How exactly do I fight back if you've taken the time to train yourself in the skills of PvPing and I haven't? How do I fight back when you have access to plenty of gear and I don't? How am I going to gain respect if I don't have the ability to hit back?

As I've said time and time again, I don't care about my PvP rating. I don't care about my XP or levels, other than the fact that I need to be certain levels to access certain quests. I don't care about you taking gold other than two situations: I need a certain amount of gold to get by. You can have the rest. Just don't take the gold I need for buffs, potions, gear, etc. Also, don't take the gold that I'm holding for the guild. You can have all the rest of the gold I get without a fight.

The main problem is that I get NO satisfaction or revenge because the system is not designed with us in mind. If I hit back, I'm just going to lose again, and not be satisfied. If I bounty, I'm losing even more money, and the hitter just gets cleared by either a friend or someone looking for a medal with 10 stam hits that do nothing to get "revenge." When I'm hit, what I want is my gold back, not any type of revenge, really. If I don't have that gold that I needed to level properly, I can't do so, and if I'm not leveling, I'm no longer getting income to make it back. So being hit in PvP causes me to be stuck and miserable and unable to do anything about it.

There are times when I wonder why I even play this game when it's full of sadists who want nothing more than to take away what is rightfully mine.

Oh boy, another thread from the dead. Seek help.

I was sick with a really bad cold and I just got back to reply. The thread was in one of my saved tabs when I re-opened my browser. (And, of course, I saved it because I wanted to reply to it.)

#28 fs_sollimaw

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:29

eh.... the upper limit should stay. Those up at EOC would have their gear pelted by nubs daily. lol

Just seems unneeded


They are always complaining there isnt enough PvP activity at higher levels.

#29 fs_regnier7

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:47

eh.... the upper limit should stay. Those up at EOC would have their gear pelted by nubs daily. lol

Just seems unneeded


They are always complaining there isnt enough PvP activity at higher levels.


*shrugs* it'll balance out as more PvP friendlies get up there.

#30 fs_sollimaw

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:51

eh.... the upper limit should stay. Those up at EOC would have their gear pelted by nubs daily. lol

Just seems unneeded


They are always complaining there isnt enough PvP activity at higher levels.


*shrugs* it'll balance out as more PvP friendlies get up there.


Personally, I think it would open the game up a lot more and allow PvPers to challenge themselves on harder targets more often. It would sink more gold by increased PvP activity and force higher level players to think more about their gold on hand.

#31 boeffie

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:54

Only people I paid FSP to in advance and had received permission. That was just to get the PvP rating to do the quests that needed a specific rating.

I have done PvP in other games and enjoyed it. But they always had the basic PvP slanted towards the defender so when you succeeded it really was an accomplishment. Of course they never had something like the bounty board.

I have done some of the GvG, which is like PvP without actually hurting the player. It is way to unbalanced.

I just want it balanced, with both sides having reasonable chances of winning. Actually SLIGHTLY in the favor of the defender because the attacker chooses time and can prepare, so if all things are EXACTLY even the defender wins.

Like I have said, I consider the PvP system broken and needing to be fixed. I think it is an important part of any MORPG. The reason I try to get it fixed is that maybe then I will be able to join in with a clear conscience that I am not just being a bully and stealing from people. Heck in one game where you were able to play multiple characters, I played a thief. It took me months to get her to the level my fighter did in about a week. I was much prouder of her than the fighter, I earned every level she gained. The fighter just did attack the creature and gain levels. Oooh so much was required.

Oh and I thought you took my first statements serious when you said about just getting the XP. Dummy me.

Again, I'm not singling you out on purpose because there are other players that have a similar opinion. So your answer to my question is no, you've never attacked a player in PvP unless it was pre-arranged. Interesting that players with absolutely no active experience playing PvP declare that it is broken and want to try and "fix" it. Throwing descriptions of players that PvP as bullies or thieves is typical from the inexperienced. A moral judgment is made and used as an excuse for not actively participating. This is a role playing game, don't forget, but I'll leave that argument aside for the time being.

I maintain that while not perfect, in fact far from it, that PvP and it's mechanics are fine the way they are set up. Tweaks and minor changes are expected in the development of the game but a major, drastic rethink isn't about to happen. Not as I see it.

PvP is not always about defending but more based on retribution. Most inexperienced PvPists are incapable or unwilling to retaliate, so instead 'this is unfair' and 'I don't want to participate' become the common mantras.

I would prefer to see the devs require more ACTIVE participation in the PvP aspect. ALL players must indirectly participate by possibly being attacked. I would propose that xp be gained from PvP attacks at a much higher xp earning per stam used then in leveling. I've been a proponent of xp gained in PvP play for ages. In fact I feel a fresh thread coming when I have the time, lol.


The latest changes have actually made for less PvP, once the ladder got fixed in such a way that guild retribution becomes far less feasible, and offered certain guilds & their protected friends a way of keeping those people out of the ladder that they don't like being there.

Now the ladder is as fixed as it ever was, the ranting about it has gone down, of course, doesn't mean that PvP as a whole has been improved, just that certain players get exactly what they want in the easiest way possible, with the added advantage of collecting the possibility of rewards. (But of course, no one is in it for those, right?).

I'm still in favour of no upwards limits, and no possibility for single individuals/guilds to be able to fix ladders.

#32 Admiral Memo

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 10:02

Personally, I think it would open the game up a lot more and allow PvPers to challenge themselves on harder targets more often. It would sink more gold by increased PvP activity and force higher level players to think more about their gold on hand.

Indeed. Anything that helps them stop picking on me and start fighting people who can fight back gets my approval. Let's turn it from big game hunting to something more like paintball.

#33 fs_imetalusi

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 10:27

Personally, I think it would open the game up a lot more and allow PvPers to challenge themselves on harder targets more often. It would sink more gold by increased PvP activity and force higher level players to think more about their gold on hand.

Indeed. Anything that helps them stop picking on me and start fighting people who can fight back gets my approval. Let's turn it from big game hunting to something more like paintball.



... I just threw up in my mouth a little bit :cry:

#34 fs_regnier7

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 10:43

Personally, I think it would open the game up a lot more and allow PvPers to challenge themselves on harder targets more often. It would sink more gold by increased PvP activity and force higher level players to think more about their gold on hand.

Indeed. Anything that helps them stop picking on me and start fighting people who can fight back gets my approval. Let's turn it from big game hunting to something more like paintball.

I just don't think it would have the effect you think it would, guys. :?

The higher level you are, the more chance I see of it being a burden on those who level often.

#35 doa4life

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 10:58

after level 500 or so they need to remove the cap or increase it. too few targets in the higher levels.

#36 Admiral Memo

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:02


Personally, I think it would open the game up a lot more and allow PvPers to challenge themselves on harder targets more often. It would sink more gold by increased PvP activity and force higher level players to think more about their gold on hand.

Indeed. Anything that helps them stop picking on me and start fighting people who can fight back gets my approval. Let's turn it from big game hunting to something more like paintball.

... I just threw up in my mouth a little bit :cry:

You're from Tribal Law... I never expected you guys to agree with anything I said anyway.

#37 fs_imetalusi

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:10

:twisted:

#38 sweetlou

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:32

The latest changes have actually made for less PvP, once the ladder got fixed in such a way that guild retribution becomes far less feasible, and offered certain guilds & their protected friends a way of keeping those people out of the ladder that they don't like being there.

Now the ladder is as fixed as it ever was, the ranting about it has gone down, of course, doesn't mean that PvP as a whole has been improved, just that certain players get exactly what they want in the easiest way possible, with the added advantage of collecting the possibility of rewards. (But of course, no one is in it for those, right?).

I'm still in favour of no upwards limits, and no possibility for single individuals/guilds to be able to fix ladders.

Are we playing the same game????

Hold enough gold on hand and ANYONE will get hit! The days of old where xp loss were HUGE for a 10 stam clear at higher levels are gone!!!

If you want to believe that PvP is lessened, fine. MAAANY players would like to hear that. The fact remains that this is a PvP GAME and players will be hit, for whatever reason!!

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#39 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:41

Personally, I think it would open the game up a lot more and allow PvPers to challenge themselves on harder targets more often. It would sink more gold by increased PvP activity and force higher level players to think more about their gold on hand.

Indeed. Anything that helps them stop picking on me and start fighting people who can fight back gets my approval. Let's turn it from big game hunting to something more like paintball.


As I've said before, if you're willing to be attacked by a constant stream of level 100s while hunting, then go for it.

#40 abhorrence

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:19

Personally, I think it would open the game up a lot more and allow PvPers to challenge themselves on harder targets more often. It would sink more gold by increased PvP activity and force higher level players to think more about their gold on hand.

Indeed. Anything that helps them stop picking on me and start fighting people who can fight back gets my approval. Let's turn it from big game hunting to something more like paintball.


As I've said before, if you're willing to be attacked by a constant stream of level 100s while hunting, then go for it.


What I love Soli and Admrl, is that you guys don't think like PvPers. So you propose things that are incredibly funny to read.

Right now Admrl you worry about +- 20 levels worth of people attacking you, if you remove restrictions and load up your 1 hit set up with less then 1000 def and less then 1000 armor. You're going to have to worry about 300 levels below you. Even if they can't cover the stats you could still be 100 stammed by a level 35. Not to mention if you upset the wrong person or wrong guild you could get hit 30+ times while you are hunting and the attackers could all have Spell Breaker 175 on.

Random people taking pot shots at your gold from anywhere, any level. You think a level 80 that just 100 stammed you and took 500k gold is going to worry about a bounty?


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