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Suggestion: PvP Ladder Changes (v2)


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Poll: Which of the options above do you feel would help improve the PvP Ladder? (359 member(s) have cast votes)

Which of the options above do you feel would help improve the PvP Ladder?

  1. Voted Remove PvP Rating transfer from the Bounty Board. (73 votes [20.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.33%

  2. Voted Limit transfer from an individual player to once every 24 hours (this should help prevent organised ratings transfers). (126 votes [35.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.10%

  3. Voted Bonus to PvP Rating Transfer for 100 stamina attacks. (134 votes [37.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.33%

  4. Voted No changes (26 votes [7.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.24%

Vote

#161 fs_imetalusi

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:48

So, you work hard for your rating.

You think the level 1000 player should have a reward equal to yours, if only one or two other players in his or her range are even interested in PVP?

The amount of effort that would be required would be vastly different. Either once again, high level players would have a massive advantage in that they would be far less vulnerable than someone like you, or they wouldn't have any ability to access the same level of reward you do. It cannot work as a pure level system.

As for the 3 days straight battle, that's a great example of pvp at work.

So, true or false: Are members of your guild currently engaged in trading rating for this ladder?

If true, why do you espouse both a hardcore pvp mindset and allow that sort of behavior?

If false, we'll talk via PM.



High Level players would have an advantage true but it would better reflect PvP as it would be PVP.

At one time I Donated PvP after I was gloated and 100 stammed from level 248 to 221 by high level levelers posing as bounty hunters for Tokens. I did that with honorable intentions, keeping it PVP so that a player could only lose his rating through PvP.. A protest. I even posted my intentions in the form and in my bio and FS Shout. Its no secret. The ONLY reason I stopped was due to Maehdros and the ranking we took from the SINGLE actual PvP player in the top 10 at the time. I could run the top of the ladder if I wanted its easy and BORING and weak. I got lucky on this last Reset to battle a PvP player who doesn't bounty he just HIT back and hit back hard.

I've played this game for awhile now bro... and there still seems to be confusion as to what PvP is when you click the Attack Button?

#162 fs_kvach

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:21

My only complaint is that its called the pvp ladder.

Please call this ladder something else hcs.

Thanks

#163 silenced

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:26

NOOOOOO.... please don't ruin the bounty board... it was one thing having my pvp ratings demolished in the last restructuring of the game (I had over 1400 well earn pvp), but quite another to make it so that we can't gain pvp rating through doing bounties... I can't see any reason to continue doing bounties if the pvp exchange is removed, so would be just another part of the game that less and less players will take part in... the pvp exchange is an important part of the bounty board, so please listen HCS and leave this part of the game alone...

...waiting nervously, biting my nails, as I await the decision of this latest thought...

:?

#164 KitiaraLi

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:43

NOOOOOO.... please don't ruin the bounty board... it was one thing having my pvp ratings demolished in the last restructuring of the game (I had over 1400 well earn pvp), but quite another to make it so that we can't gain pvp rating through doing bounties... I can't see any reason to continue doing bounties if the pvp exchange is removed, so would be just another part of the game that less and less players will take part in... the pvp exchange is an important part of the bounty board, so please listen HCS and leave this part of the game alone...


Are you even aware that that statement is exactly why we want the pvp ladder changes?

The board is not about rating! It is about punishment (hence the x2 xp loss factor), it is about testing you skills vs other players (whenever you get to fight someone online at a similar or higher lvl) and having great fun while doing so... and of course earning the almost always ridiculously low reward offered, and get another scalp under your belt towards the next BH medal.

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#165 C4RPY

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:46

Multies are a huge problem to the integrity of the game! Players retiring then giving their friend their password info to drive that retired character is another form of a multi, a much more common one. HCS needs to fire up a better IP address sharing detector because the current one doesn't catch jack. Without a ticket reporting one they go undetected.


Or HCS can check my 'enemy' list and contact me for a Copy of a skype convo with a certain *cough* multi *cough*

As for the proposed changes...

Well, I don't feel PvP rating transfer should be removed completly from Bounty Hunting for a few reasons. PvP rating is gained/rewarded for Player Versus Player.. now Bounty Hunting is a form of PvP, simple.. so should be rewarded PvP rating.. not as much as OFF the board hits, definatly a reduced transfer.. which is already in place.

Also the PvP ladder should be fair game to everyone that wishes to take part in the PvP aspect of the game, removing PvP transfer from BH'ing will greatly effect the higher level players un fairly.

For example I currently have just 32 players in my range where I could gain PvP rating from hitting directly, only 1 of which (besides me) activily PvP's. Meaning it would be very tough, no, impossible for me to compete for a PvP reward if I so wished to try... I shouldn't be penalised because of the lack of players in my range and not being able to gain PvP rating from the Bounty Board.

I do like the idea that PvP rating transfer should and could only be gained from players within a certain level range though as I agree I shouldn't be able to gain PvP rating from clearing a Level 100 player, or even 200,300 players... some sort of level range to gain rating from the Bounty Board is a good idea and step forward to stop easy picking for higher level players who cannot actually PvP well and just use brute force against the lower level players for their rating... rating should definatly be 'earned' and gaining it from someone 600-700 levels below you is not 'earning' that rating... PvP ladder rewards should be a challenge to gain and be worked for... but as said before, we shouldnt be pealised because we have NO 'PvP' targets in our direct -/+ 10 level range.

As for more rating for direct 100 stam off the board hits... isn't this already in place also? maybe you could make it more.. but I think it is high enough as it is.

Summery, Keep rating transer on the BB, with the current reduction to transfer as it is now but stop a level 1000 player gain rating from a level 300 player on the board. Keep more rating transfer for off the board hit high, as it already is. More risk, more rating should be gained.

#166 supermum

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:59

The last topic closed while I was typing my thoughts about these updates.

So let me see if I understand. People will get PvP rating for hits off the bounty board. You'll give them a bonus for 100 stamina hits, but when a bounty is posted on them for 100 stam hitting they won't lose any PvP rating from being on the bounty board?
This to me is another way you're screwing all the players focused on leveling. When someone gets hit for PvP rating they lose a lot of xp for 100 stam, but now you have taken away one of the very purposes for the bounty board. If someone hits me for rating I want them to lose it when I put them on the bounty board. This is only fair. Now there is pretty much no point for the bounty board as most people who are trying to top the PvP ladder don't care about their xp level. The bounty board is SUPPOSED to be a negative consequence. Something every PvPer understands is a risk in hitting someone. This update ruins that. Please don't continue to reward PvPers at the expense of those who choose to level. This has become a theme. I realize you are trying to make it more "fair" for the PvPers, but this is not going to do it. It WILL hurt every leveler in the game.


this I totally agree with..let us have the opportunity to punish those who dare attack us while we are doing our hard work leveling

#167 sweetlou

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:17

Multies are a huge problem to the integrity of the game! Players retiring then giving their friend their password info to drive that retired character is another form of a multi, a much more common one. HCS needs to fire up a better IP address sharing detector because the current one doesn't catch jack. Without a ticket reporting one they go undetected.


Or HCS can check my 'enemy' list and contact me for a Copy of a skype convo with a certain *cough* multi *cough*

Send a ticket! Cheating doesn't have any place in the game.

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#168 fusionj

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:40

Removing rating from the board is the same as saying bounty hunting isn't PvP. Sorry, but it is.


Agree with a lot of your post, but the quoted portion is a generalization that is too often not true. I know the way that a number of WKs bounty hunt IS pvp...unfortunately, that's not always the case for numerous other players(little coincidence that the number of casual bounty hunters increased dramatically when these tokens started). I've been known to put up a hell of a fight for a lvl600 clearing me...but when a 900+ does it, it's rarely ever pvp anymore. Unless every buff under the sun kicks in for me, and not one does for him/her...it's no longer a fight, it's just me taking off any crystal gear I own, and bending over the nearest table.

Fact is, a number of you(and this isn't aimed directly at you...it's just another generalization) are speaking on a topic that you're unaware the circumstances of. Level 700/800/900s didn't exist when A LOT of the posters in this thread were in the 200s. Granted, the difference in gear was greater(and there were fewer buffs), but there are certain things that just can't be overcome.

It's easy for high level players to discuss this, when the reality isn't that there's a problem with farming lvl600 players. Many of the lvl600 player that I know have no problem being enough of a hassle for a EOC player to clear, that it's not worth the potential loss to farm rating. As more and more content is added, more and more uncharted territory is reached.

There needs to be a drastic change in how not only pvp, but bounty hunting works. Level 800 and 900 bounty hunters ending up on top of the pvp ladder every week for clearing level 200/300/400s isn't pvp, and shouldn't be rewarded with "pvp tokens". There is SOME merit to removing rating from bounties, but I understand that it reduces what legitimate pvp bounty hunters accomplish at the high levels. A number of solid alternatives have been introduced in this thread.


- Lastly, Metal catches hell for how we handled the ladder, but in reality, there was a system flaw that made us only hitting KNOWN PVPers that don't bounty in our level range, make sense. What sense does it make for us to do random 100s, or bounty hunt, only to be bountied, and have some lvl800 pull rating off of us with no challenge? Why should we have to PAY some lvl700+ for pvp gear at our level...when we could just earn it? At the heart of the matter...that's my biggest issue with the ladder. When these tokens first started, the pvp set for my level range was being sold for over 1k+ fsp. $120+ for two pieces of pixelated gear?!?! And people were buying them(one of my suspicions for why there hasn't been a rush to change the current system, until the items started becoming more abundant, and the prices started falling). Metal owes no apology to anyone...except the one known pvping bounty hunter that was pushed down the board(who deservedly received that apology, and an agreement to cease and desist)...for doing what was perfectly within the rules of currently terrible system.

#169 laserlars

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:50

Think organized pvp will increase if it is no longer possible to get it from the bb.

#170 Zukira

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:48

Taking rating off the bounty board - breaks things. Leave it alone. Getting bountied is a risk that PvPers take, so anything they can earn via PvP should be at risk from being on the board. Scale the exchange according to the level difference in those doing the bounties. Someone lower gets more, someone drastically higher gets less. The incentive remains, though a check and balance is added. If possible, have it check the person who is being cleared for the presence of gear when they are hit. If they're naked during the bounty no rating is exchanged.

It eliminates the incentive many players who wouldn't be interested in pvp at all have now. Yes, before, people did bounties, but from what I've seen, more people do them now because there is an incentive beyond just getting gold off the target and the bounty reward or getting a medal. Rating does something, if you get enough of it so it has an additional quantifiable value to the players involved.

Limiting the transfer to 24 hours hurts the players devoted to PvP. I'm not a PvP-er, but I don't like the idea of breaking a part of the game for those that do enjoy it. Once a day rather than once an hour is going from one extreme to the other.

Perhaps scale the timer according to stamina used or the difference in levels of the players or adjust the time. Hits spaced by just an hour could seem like "griefing" to a target. The time could even be randomized between specific parameters, between a half hour (lucky break there for the PvPer) and a day or less. This would mix in a little more finesse for both sides of it than simply noting a time, striking and then setting a timer to remind them to hit someone again in an hour. The targeted player wouldn't know how long before the player has another chance to hit them, so couldn't plan to buff up to defend in an hour (or 24hrs from the previous hit or whatever). *additionally, there should be nothing introduced to the game to improve the odds of getting a lower time on the hit timer if this was done*


Bonus for 100 stam - sure. Do it. The stam used up on a 100 stam hit cuts down on targets so should net more gain or loss for the person doing it. It comes with more risk for the PvPer, so should have a greater reward. It also encourages the PvPer to use up stamina on fewer targets.

So that is my 2 cents on the matter.

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#171 4gottn4ver

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:03

some are saying that the BB is a form of ' punishment ' as a result of PvP hits/ attacks an should be dealt that way. fine lets go with that concept. so ' if ' a BH'er working a BB target using min 10 stam hits clearing them for 10 kills not for PvP rating using gloat/ honor buffs or let alone even for PvP rating and their BB target places them up on BB as a counter bounty. and even send gold/ FSP to the target for repairs an what not in hopes there is no counter bounty but one is placed anyways on them. so the BH'er that did min 10 stam clearing should be ' punished ' for doing what they do working the BB. how does that make sense?

I haven't worked any BB targets since about a week before the 1st time HCS tinkered with the PvP/ BB cause I wasn't sure about it. maybe on that I shouldn't have anything to say but I was working on other things an working my way to wear some other gear an get back into it along with some other PvP aspects of FS. an now I am even wondering if it might be worth even trying again.

someone mentioned that max 100 stam hits are used for gold hits in PvP, true for the most part. as for myself I don't need to use max 100 stam hit on a player to get the most of the gold in the open. I can and have been for a long time using min 10 stam hits to take all gold in the open, sometimes it takes a few hits due to I have master thief maxed out cause of gear. this lessens the damage to the targets gear and xp loss. if I get placed up on BB over it fine I get put up.

but this BB is not ' PvP ' an PvP points should be removed for working bounty's if you are attacking another player what would you call it then? isn't it called in full ' Player vs. Player '?? even in GvG's you are attacking another player but even that is viewed as not being PvP. if BB is not a form of PvP how do non-attacking players end up on BB if they only work clearing bounty's off BB. BH'ers use FSP to buy bounty tix, they use or get buffed for working a bounty, they also use their stam to clear the BB targets. but yet PvP points are possibly going to be yanked from that an force players to only gain PvP points from straight out attacking. and then once they get placed up on BB they get a free/ safe ride with their PvP points safe from being lost due to a bounty placed on them.

the idea of separate PvP point boards seems decent, that way players that just work BB and not attack outside that besides the BH'er leader board an players that straight out attack both can have something to work for since it seems BB an straight out PvP are separate aspects of ' PvP '.

as for doing in lvl range groups I would have to say that would be rough as players lvl up the field gets a bit thinner and limits their chance to take part in the PvP ' ladder ' and would be taking away from higher lvl's being able to make the ' ladder ' is that fair to them just cause they have a higher lvl with few players to attack how is that fair.

am not too sure about this PvP points transfer to once every 24hrs, sorta seems like next step might be like only can attack same player once every 24hrs. that is part of why players attack other players if target player doesn't have alot of gold in open is for PvP points. an if it goes to once every 24hrs it seems it might cut back PvP'ing.

with a ' bonus for PvP rating for max 100 stam hits ' what does that imply to straight out attacks and/ or BH'ing hits? if you attack another player as it is now for max 100 stam hit even w/o gloat/ honor you gain alot more PvP points. I don't use gloat or honor when I am attacking I don't like the idea of them and I have them blocked. but am I going to run down a player cause they choose to use them.... no cause that is THEIR choice just like I chose not to use them.

if they decide on these why the heck not put in if a BH'er clears a bounty off BB they are not able to have a counter bounty placed on them which many have said before from the 1st time this mess was brought up the first time. but yet that is ' sorta ' part of PvP an be allowed to place a bounty on your attackers.

this sorta just seem like what was being brought up awhile ago with some players wanting some type of pot to prevent any players from attacking/ PvP'ing them for a certain time frame as in opting out of being attacked. this just seems to be sorta the same thing as that just worded differently.

seems to be the PvP'ing/ ladder is a mess, hey we'll make another mess of a mess to see how much more of a mess can be made next time. head is spinning more the the gal from the movie Exorcist.

#172 Maehdros

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:15

I love stompin, I love bounty hunting (especially higher levels then me...its fun lol) Sadly.. with this pvp ladder.. ya cant do both ... sure.//at the start of a reset you can...but 4 or 5 days in, and up here no one in my range is worth smackin( up here most players value xp highly ;) and not many pvp...... There needs to be some sort of rating reward for hitting upwards on the BB.. even if they have less rating then you.. its silly.. I know i aint gonna clear a 900 going 10 -0 , and basically one loss = 0 rating gain on a bounty...

I can go toe to toe with alot of players..but need luck against those big 900's, hence actually off the board hits.. are inadvisable sadly, if i want to stay on the ladder <--- it shouldnt be that way

To start..Ban the multies, link 100 stams to rating gain....... removing rating from the board means at say 1500 rating or so..i cant go higher....yet i smack tonnes of people oO doesnt make sense to me lol , It has to be on the board... unless magically you can continually gain rating from constantly dishin out 100 stam love to those in range.Other then that theres no way to gain rating.....and no I wont hit guildies.. last time i left to clear micky on a dare.. Kit wanted to stomp me for fun :shock:

#173 Bleltch

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:26

Leaving rating transfer on the bounty board gives a huge advantage to the high level bounty hunters. And at the top of the ladder is the dominance medal. Is it really dominance for a player getting to the top by killing players 100+ level below them? Or even 50 levels below them?

Lets see some changes that gives everyone a chance if they have the skill and want to work for it.

#174 Khanate

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:31

Leaving rating transfer on the bounty board gives a huge advantage to the high level bounty hunters. And at the top of the ladder is the dominance medal. Is it really dominance for a player getting to the top by killing players 100+ level below them? Or even 50 levels below them?

Lets see some changes that gives everyone a chance if they have the skill and want to work for it.


If anyone knew which changes allowed everyone to compete on an equal footing...

#175 Bleltch

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:36

If anyone knew which changes allowed everyone to compete on an equal footing...

It's not possible for everyone to compete equally, that's what i'm trying to get at. As long as all players are thrown on the same field the high level players will dominate. (or at least have a huge advantage)

#176 Khanate

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:39

Someone suggested in the past, and now again, that the higher the lvl - the larger your PvP range should be, to prevent the high lvls to run outta targets. Again the answer, to me, is simple. Having the ladder broken into ranges, you can hit everyone within that range nomatter the lvl. Having a range called for instance 136-210 means that anyone within this level range, can hit each other .. for rating!
Normal gold/xp hits should stay as is.


So there would be a range for EXP/Gold hit of +/- 10 levels and one for PvP rating hits? Sounds awesome kiti, this is one of those ideas that can fix things.

#177 Khanate

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:45



If anyone knew which changes allowed everyone to compete on an equal footing...

It's not possible for everyone to compete equally, that's what i'm trying to get at. As long as all players are thrown on the same field the high level players will dominate. (or at least have a huge advantage)


As kiti said, removing transfer from the board gives an advantage to those who have actual PvP'ers in their range as one cannot go high than 500 above the closest PvP'er. There will be large amounts of levels where it'll be impossible to get high on the ladder, there will be other ranges where it's traders.

I think kiti's suggestion actually fixes some of the bigger underlying issues.

#178 Khanate

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:46

Removing rating from the board is the same as saying bounty hunting isn't PvP. Sorry, but it is. I spent quite a bit of time one this issue since the cows sadly and unintentionally broke the PvP system, and changed it into a profit system - mainly because I am one of those, who will easily be mistaken for a rating farmer. In my book, the solution s not to remove rating transfers from the Someone suggested in the past, and now again, that the higher the lvl - the larger your PvP range should be, to prevent the high lvls to run outta targets. Again the answer, to me, is simple. Having the ladder broken into ranges, you can hit everyone within that range nomatter the lvl. Having a range called for instance 136-210 means that anyone within this level range, can hit each other .. for rating!
Normal gold/xp hits should stay as is.


However it should be a % of your level, not simply ranges. Something like -25% / +20% (so that people you can hit can always hit back). However is it bountyable? I can't figure out if it should...

#179 Bleltch

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:51

Someone suggested in the past, and now again, that the higher the lvl - the larger your PvP range should be, to prevent the high lvls to run outta targets. Again the answer, to me, is simple. Having the ladder broken into ranges, you can hit everyone within that range nomatter the lvl. Having a range called for instance 136-210 means that anyone within this level range, can hit each other .. for rating!
Normal gold/xp hits should stay as is.


So there would be a range for EXP/Gold hit of +/- 10 levels and one for PvP rating hits? Sounds awesome kiti, this is one of those ideas that can fix things.

Dividing up the ladder into level ranges is a good idea, and has been suggested many times. The part about pvp attacks not taking exp or gold is a very bad idea IMO.

#180 Khanate

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:56

Someone suggested in the past, and now again, that the higher the lvl - the larger your PvP range should be, to prevent the high lvls to run outta targets. Again the answer, to me, is simple. Having the ladder broken into ranges, you can hit everyone within that range nomatter the lvl. Having a range called for instance 136-210 means that anyone within this level range, can hit each other .. for rating!
Normal gold/xp hits should stay as is.


So there would be a range for EXP/Gold hit of +/- 10 levels and one for PvP rating hits? Sounds awesome kiti, this is one of those ideas that can fix things.

Dividing up the ladder into level ranges is a good idea, and has been suggested many times. The part about pvp attacks not taking exp or gold is a very bad idea IMO.


There would be PvP attacks in the +/- 10 range and Rating Attacks in the extended range.

Exp and gold hits would remain unchanged basically.


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