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PvP Ladder - Level Brackets (Continued)


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#21 fs_sollimaw

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 22:59

So... my main issues/questions/thoughts so far in regards to the PvP Ladder Brackets...

PvP Level Ranges

We've established that the ladder can be split into brackets, and overall this seems to be a popular idea. The question is, do we:

A) Open up PvP so any player can attack any other player, but only allow rating transfer within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

Not sure what you mean by this. I am in favor of allowing unlimited upward attacks, so long as rating is only gained within the bracket. A revenge hit option would be a good addition to this.

B) Only allow PvP within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

The brackets will leave multiple levels where you either have no targets below you, or no targets above you to play with. These areas need some overlap to make the competition fair for everyone. As you get higher this overlap needs to get larger to account for the reduced number of targets. I posted a chart near the end of the previous discussion. Will dig it up.

C) Allow players to specify the PvP attack types - ie. if it is for PvP Rating, xp/gold or both. The main idea behind this is more relevant to the bounty board (see the next section), but would allow players to attack within the standard level ranges for only PvP Rating (ie. not causing xp/gold loss.). Players outwith the standard PvP attack range

would be unable to select the xp/gold loss option.

Eh. Not impressed by this idea. All PvP should contain gold, exp and rating loss.

What to do with the bounty board?

This is a difficult one and could be changed in many different ways, here are my thoughts so far. (Note all the suggestions are assuming the implementation of the PvP Ladder brackets).

A) Drastically reduce PvP Rating gained and lost on the bounty board.

Fixed.

B) Only allow PvP Rating transfer from bounty targets within your current bracket.

See part B above.

C) This one depends on the 'PvP attack types' in the previous section. The idea being that the bounties relate to the type of attack. For example if a player attacks another for PvP Rating only, then only PvP Rating can be taken on the Bounty Board.

No. This is triple the storage space needed compared to PvP information storage now.

Other potential issues that need thought

A) How should the players bracket be determined - personally I think it should be determined at the time the PvP Ladder is reset.

Leos300 suggested a floating bracket based on VL. People who level up or delevel would move to the appropriate ladder when they hit the cutover point. Allowing the overlap suggested above would mean they still had targets in either bracket.

B) What should happen when a player increases or decreases their level outwith their current bracket? We can easily prevent them from gaining any rating outwith the bracket, however say they have gained a substantial PvP rating, then moves outwith the bracket, it would be unfair to making them unattackable. Therefore, I think that once the bracket is determined, you can then increase/decrease your level, but you are still classified as being in the bracket. Also I think we should have a list of all the players in your current bracket, ordered by their current PvP Rating.

See Part A.

Please let us know your thoughts on all the above and if you have any other suggestions that you feel will improve the PvP Ladder. Your feedback is important to us! :)


This bracket setup is the best I have seen.

25-100 = 25 - 125 rating transfer
101-200 = 75 - 225 Rating Transfer
201-300 = 150 - 350 Rating Transfer
301-400 = 225 - 475 Rating Transfer
401-500 = 300 - 600 Rating Transfer
501-600 = 375 - 725 Rating Transfer
601-700 = 450 - 850 Rating Transfer
701-800 = 525 - 975 Rating Transfer
801-900 = 600 - 1100 Rating Transfer
901-EoC = 675 - EOC Rating Transfer

#22 fs_theggold

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 23:03

I like that idea Kalish, and yes gloat should be fragged, yes I decided fragged was better then nerfed, I like the options C then C finally B

#23 Woulfe

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 23:19

So... my main issues/questions/thoughts so far in regards to the PvP Ladder Brackets...

PvP Level Ranges

We've established that the ladder can be split into brackets, and overall this seems to be a popular idea. The question is, do we:

A) Open up PvP so any player can attack any other player, but only allow rating transfer within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

Would this allow a level 40 to attack a level 500while they hunt? Dont seem fair :(

B) Only allow PvP within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

This would be more fair to the hunters.

C) Allow players to specify the PvP attack types - ie. if it is for PvP Rating, xp/gold or both. The main idea behind this is more relevant to the bounty board (see the next section), but would allow players to attack within the standard level ranges for only PvP Rating (ie. not causing xp/gold loss.). Players outwith the standard PvP attack range

If this were to happen then the hunters would be selling their PvP rating.

would be unable to select the xp/gold loss option.

What to do with the bounty board?

This is a difficult one and could be changed in many different ways, here are my thoughts so far. (Note all the suggestions are assuming the implementation of the PvP Ladder brackets).

A) Remove PvP Rating completely from the bounty board.

What would be the risk in doing PvP?

B) Only allow PvP Rating transfer from bounty targets within your current bracket.

no opinion

C) This one depends on the 'PvP attack types' in the previous section. The idea being that the bounties relate to the type of attack. For example if a player attacks another for PvP Rating only, then only PvP Rating can be taken on the Bounty Board.

still a very bad idea



#24 LordOfRuin

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 23:29

Dear Hoof

At the risk of repeating myself (from previous threads, not from communiques directed at yourself)......

Whatever changes are introduced it should make the system for PvP Rating a FAIR one. Thus far it has been far more difficult for higher level players to gain significant rating without investing a huge amount of time, stam and probably fsp on buffs, tix and pots than for low level players. Even when this has been achieved (as one or two players in the region of Level 1000 have shown) it can ALL be lost in one or two hits or, for instance, a counter. Lower level players are not subjected to the risk of losing everything they have gained in such a manner. The recent changes just made this situation even worse.

I would also suggest that BEFORE you chuck a 'fix' at this it is thoroughly thought through and tested for possible flaws/abuse. The manual reset performed to introduce the current system (which - as has been pointed out many times but I feel the point should be made again - effectively reduces the chances of any player over level 500 or 600 of getting anywhere on the ladder to nearly zero, while ensuring that if they DO achieve that they can lose it all in a hit or 2) annoyed [polite phrase used] a lot of players who had invested time, effort, stam and fsp attempting to time a run for the higher end of the ladder for a reset AFTER the 7 day minimum. If you manually reset again before the stated minimum you will just upset MORE people. Especially if the 'fixes' don't fix anything.

Another suggestion, due to current bias, would be to suspend the ladder until this is sorted out. You have excluded many players who have been around for a long time from a portion of the game, while making opening multiple accounts even more attractive. This cannot be good for the game. Or your business. People are already stopping playing because the game changes favour those prepared to cheat, and you are currently exacerbating this problem. If the system is unfair (and you obviously realise this or this thread would not even exist) you should remove the opportunity for the less scrupulous in this community to exploit it until a proper fix is introduced.

STOP THE MULTI's

#25 watagashi

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 00:05

pvp brackets should take into consideration the percentages of players at each level.
if kept in bountys and it should Then it should be as much as regular pvp.

#26 Bleltch

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 05:08

MY thoughts:
All successful pvp attacks should take gold, exp and pvp points. Pvp without risk isn't pvp as we know it.
All attacks should have the option to be bountied.
Pvp point transfer should be removed from the bounty board completely.
Gloat and honor should be removed from the game.
Pvp rewards should be removed too. (or a tkp type system introduced if they must stay)

#27 maxvam

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 05:52

So... my main issues/questions/thoughts so far in regards to the PvP Ladder Brackets...

PvP Level Ranges

We've established that the ladder can be split into brackets, and overall this seems to be a popular idea. The question is, do we:

A) Open up PvP so any player can attack any other player, but only allow rating transfer within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

B) Only allow PvP within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

C) Allow players to specify the PvP attack types - ie. if it is for PvP Rating, xp/gold or both. The main idea behind this is more relevant to the bounty board (see the next

section), but would allow players to attack within the standard level ranges for only PvP Rating (ie. not causing xp/gold loss.). Players outwith the standard PvP attack range

would be unable to select the xp/gold loss option.

What to do with the bounty board?

This is a difficult one and could be changed in many different ways, here are my thoughts so far. (Note all the suggestions are assuming the implementation of the PvP Ladder brackets).

A) Remove PvP Rating completely from the bounty board.

B) Only allow PvP Rating transfer from bounty targets within your current bracket.

C) This one depends on the 'PvP attack types' in the previous section. The idea being that the bounties relate to the type of attack. For example if a player attacks another for PvP Rating only, then only PvP Rating can be taken on the Bounty Board.

Other potential issues that need thought

A) How should the players bracket be determined - personally I think it should be determined at the time the PvP Ladder is reset.

B) What should happen when a player increases or decreases their level outwith their current bracket? We can easily prevent them from gaining any rating outwith the bracket, however say they have gained a substantial PvP rating, then moves outwith the bracket, it would be unfair to making them unattackable. Therefore, I think that once the bracket is determined, you can then increase/decrease your level, but you are still classified as being in the bracket. Also I think we should have a list of all the players in your current bracket, ordered by their current PvP Rating.

Please let us know your thoughts on all the above and if you have any other suggestions that you feel will improve the PvP Ladder. Your feedback is important to us! :)



option C is the best , it encourages overall folks of fs into pvp, and actually it has to be that way, that's a perfect idea fix for pvp.. and it should not be for both.. either for pvp rating or xp/gold loss the player has to choose. those who are intrested in rating can go for rating and those are intrested xp/gold players will go for that.. , :lol:

#28 spidey101

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 07:12

MY thoughts:
All successful pvp attacks should take gold, exp and pvp points. Pvp without risk isn't pvp as we know it.
All attacks should have the option to be bountied.
Pvp point transfer should be removed from the bounty board completely.
Gloat and honor should be removed from the game.
Pvp rewards should be removed too. (or a tkp type system introduced if they must stay)


why should rating be switched off the BB? Bounty hunting is PvP so it should get rating. everything else I can understand.

#29 abhorrence

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 09:43

So... my main issues/questions/thoughts so far in regards to the PvP Ladder Brackets...

PvP Level Ranges

We've established that the ladder can be split into brackets, and overall this seems to be a popular idea. The question is, do we:

A) Open up PvP so any player can attack any other player, but only allow rating transfer within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

HUGE FLAW, this could lead to a PVP guild targeting levelers with 5 million gold on them and hit with 5, 6, 7+ people while the target is in hunting gear? OR if you have a grudge with someone attack them with the same number of people with Spell Breaker AND Spell Leach on while they hunt? Even a level 20 could take spells off a level 1100.

B) Only allow PvP within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

I would think that increasing the Standard PvP level ranges as you level is better then opening up everyone to an entire bracket. 5% of your level, +- 5 levels until 100, +-10 levels until 200 opens up MANY more targets.


C) Allow players to specify the PvP attack types - ie. if it is for PvP Rating, xp/gold or both. The main idea behind this is more relevant to the bounty board (see the next

section), but would allow players to attack within the standard level ranges for only PvP Rating (ie. not causing xp/gold loss.). Players outwith the standard PvP attack range

would be unable to select the xp/gold loss option.

With the above modifications to attack ranges there is no need for this. I also find that categorizing the type of attack is the first step down a path that would lead to attacks that are not bountiable. I would hate to see this come about.

What to do with the bounty board?

This is a difficult one and could be changed in many different ways, here are my thoughts so far. (Note all the suggestions are assuming the implementation of the PvP Ladder brackets).

A) Remove PvP Rating completely from the bounty board.

B) Only allow PvP Rating transfer from bounty targets within your current bracket.

Use brackets ONLY for the Bounty Board and allow transfer from anyone in your range but no matter what, the person that loses the fight loses rating.

C) This one depends on the 'PvP attack types' in the previous section. The idea being that the bounties relate to the type of attack. For example if a player attacks another for PvP Rating only, then only PvP Rating can be taken on the Bounty Board.

I am against separating out types of attacks as stated before this is the first step in making some types of attacks not bountyable

Other potential issues that need thought

A) How should the players bracket be determined - personally I think it should be determined at the time the PvP Ladder is reset.

Actual Level, Virtual Level, PvP level. All should be listed in your bio so even if you level people can see what level you use to be when the ladder reset.

B) What should happen when a player increases or decreases their level outwith their current bracket? We can easily prevent them from gaining any rating outwith the bracket, however say they have gained a substantial PvP rating, then moves outwith the bracket, it would be unfair to making them unattackable. Therefore, I think that once the bracket is determined, you can then increase/decrease your level, but you are still classified as being in the bracket. Also I think we should have a list of all the players in your current bracket, ordered by their current PvP Rating.

So people can head hunt every top rated person in their bracket in 5 minutes? I'm not sure this is a great idea.

Please let us know your thoughts on all the above and if you have any other suggestions that you feel will improve the PvP Ladder. Your feedback is important to us! :)



#30 fs_imetalusi

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 09:53

.

#31 Removed22342

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 10:09

So... my main issues/questions/thoughts so far in regards to the PvP Ladder Brackets...

PvP Level Ranges

We've established that the ladder can be split into brackets, and overall this seems to be a popular idea. The question is, do we:

A) Open up PvP so any player can attack any other player, but only allow rating transfer within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

B) Only allow PvP within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

C) Allow players to specify the PvP attack types - ie. if it is for PvP Rating, xp/gold or both. The main idea behind this is more relevant to the bounty board (see the next

section), but would allow players to attack within the standard level ranges for only PvP Rating (ie. not causing xp/gold loss.). Players outwith the standard PvP attack range

would be unable to select the xp/gold loss option.

What to do with the bounty board?

This is a difficult one and could be changed in many different ways, here are my thoughts so far. (Note all the suggestions are assuming the implementation of the PvP Ladder brackets).

A) Remove PvP Rating completely from the bounty board.

B) Only allow PvP Rating transfer from bounty targets within your current bracket.

C) This one depends on the 'PvP attack types' in the previous section. The idea being that the bounties relate to the type of attack. For example if a player attacks another for PvP Rating only, then only PvP Rating can be taken on the Bounty Board.

Other potential issues that need thought

A) How should the players bracket be determined - personally I think it should be determined at the time the PvP Ladder is reset.

B) What should happen when a player increases or decreases their level outwith their current bracket? We can easily prevent them from gaining any rating outwith the bracket, however say they have gained a substantial PvP rating, then moves outwith the bracket, it would be unfair to making them unattackable. Therefore, I think that once the bracket is determined, you can then increase/decrease your level, but you are still classified as being in the bracket. Also I think we should have a list of all the players in your current bracket, ordered by their current PvP Rating.

Please let us know your thoughts on all the above and if you have any other suggestions that you feel will improve the PvP Ladder. Your feedback is important to us! :)




How many updates have you guys done now? LOL

Best would probably to scrap it all together or re-design it completely. I haven't followed what lead up to the last update but it sure looks like you moved the problem around. Anyway, I'm curious about attack types, how do they apply for hits on the board?

#32 celendais

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 10:21

1. get rid of gloat and honor . No ifs no buts no nothing .Scrap the darn things.

2. NO riskfree attacks. All attacks take XP and gold as today.

3. Maedros, Hor, Gravely all make solid points. +1 on 99% what they say

4. The board:

Combats witin your brackets rating is gained and lost

Combats UNDER your bracket: you gain rating for completing the bounty. 5 or something

Combats OVER yor bracket: you gain rating from the player.


Also a TKP system is good call.

Simplest would be to have the tokens spawn from elsewhere and scrap the whole ladder thingee.

TO PROMOTE PVP IN ALL THE PEOPLE THAT BOUNTY A 10 STAM TAP A SPECIAL PVP EVENT SHOULD BE PLANNED FOR CHRISTMAS.

#33 Removed22342

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 10:28

1. get rid of gloat and honor . No ifs no buts no nothing .Scrap the darn things.

2. NO riskfree attacks. All attacks take XP and gold as today.

3. Maedros, Hor, Gravely all make solid points. +1 on 99% what they say

4. The board:

Combats witin your brackets rating is gained and lost

Combats UNDER your bracket: you gain rating for completing the bounty. 5 or something

Combats OVER yor bracket: you gain rating from the player.


Also a TKP system is good call.

Simplest would be to have the tokens spawn from elsewhere and scrap the whole ladder thingee.

TO PROMOTE PVP IN ALL THE PEOPLE THAT BOUNTY A 10 STAM TAP A SPECIAL PVP EVENT SHOULD BE PLANNED FOR CHRISTMAS.


Agree with 1, 2, 3 and 4. The last (and only?) PvP event that was player driven was pretty successful, not sure what the cows could do?

#34 Woulfe

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 13:16

This is starting to sound like an arena without being called an arena. Why not true PvP? Take away the tokens. If the PvPers want a bonus for hitting then make it possible to "steal" and untagged item out of a persons backpack. Forget the ladders and brackets, make it real. The BB is there as a means for the non PvPer to get some satisfaction for getting hit and for the PvPer and BH to test their skills against each other. Put the tokens in the Arena where they belong and give it some meaning again. Wouldnt that solve most of the problems?

#35 Anemie

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 13:30

This is starting to sound like an arena without being called an arena. Why not true PvP? Take away the tokens. If the PvPers want a bonus for hitting then make it possible to "steal" and untagged item out of a persons backpack. Forget the ladders and brackets, make it real. The BB is there as a means for the non PvPer to get some satisfaction for getting hit and for the PvPer and BH to test their skills against each other. Put the tokens in the Arena where they belong and give it some meaning again. Wouldnt that solve most of the problems?

Yea,sure--I want some idiot to steal items from my BP..That would surely give a reason for those that donate to keep playing the game..

Also,yeap,why not,,actually lets put RP items to arena...everything should come to the game from arena..

Even though few would like to see items removed from the ladder,bunch of players started PvP-ing because of them-yes there are multies,farmers,and other ways to cheat your way to the top...But for some reason I'd like to think that better solution would be to decrease cheating without removing the rewards-It would be harder-but it would also benefit the game a lot more than just placing those items in arena.

#36 Bleltch

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 13:59

why should rating be switched off the BB? Bounty hunting is PvP so it should get rating. everything else I can understand.

Because bounty hunting is fairly a fairly safe endeavor.
Pvp has risk, 5 levels is commonly lost. Bounty hunters very rarely lose 5 levels for a 10 stam clear.
Bounty hunters already have a top list and medal just for them, let the pvpers have their own.
And you do realize the reason we messing with the pvp ladder to begin with is because bounty hunters were dominating it. (and they still are)

#37 fs_vivachiba

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 14:12

[quote name="Hoofmaster"]So... my main issues/questions/thoughts so far in regards to the PvP Ladder Brackets...

PvP Level Ranges

We've established that the ladder can be split into brackets, and overall this seems to be a popular idea. The question is, do we:

A) Open up PvP so any player can attack any other player, but only allow rating transfer within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

Um, no, or players will complain even more about the upper echelons.
Besides, it introduces a means to bully by law.


B) Only allow PvP within the bracket range and xp/gold loss within the standard PvP level ranges.

No. By all means, allow PvP ratings to change hands within the brackets, but do not dispose of the +/- 5 or 10 levels (or whatever it is), or those at the top/bottom of one level can abuse this flawed concept too easily.

C) Allow players to specify the PvP attack types - ie. if it is for PvP Rating, xp/gold or both. The main idea behind this is more relevant to the bounty board (see the next

section), but would allow players to attack within the standard level ranges for only PvP Rating (ie. not causing xp/gold loss.). Players outwith the standard PvP attack range

would be unable to select the xp/gold loss option.

Well, if non-PvP players don't actually lose XP, most won't bother with using the bounty board, having already lost enough gold on repairs.
This is a FAIL.


What to do with the bounty board?

This is a difficult one and could be changed in many different ways, here are my thoughts so far. (Note all the suggestions are assuming the implementation of the PvP Ladder brackets).

A) Remove PvP Rating completely from the bounty board.

B) Only allow PvP Rating transfer from bounty targets within your current bracket.

May as well be the same thing, these two. And personally, if you attack players for PvP, you deserve to lose PvP rating on the board - it's the attacked's right for retribution.

C) This one depends on the 'PvP attack types' in the previous section. The idea being that the bounties relate to the type of attack. For example if a player attacks another for PvP Rating only, then only PvP Rating can be taken on the Bounty Board.

I already said that the PvP-rating only attack defuncts the BB, so here I'll repeat it.

Other potential issues that need thought
I don't really like the bracket idea... AT ALL, but there you go.

#38 Woulfe

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 14:31

This is starting to sound like an arena without being called an arena. Why not true PvP? Take away the tokens. If the PvPers want a bonus for hitting then make it possible to "steal" and untagged item out of a persons backpack. Forget the ladders and brackets, make it real. The BB is there as a means for the non PvPer to get some satisfaction for getting hit and for the PvPer and BH to test their skills against each other. Put the tokens in the Arena where they belong and give it some meaning again. Wouldnt that solve most of the problems?

Yea,sure--I want some idiot to steal items from my BP..That would surely give a reason for those that donate to keep playing the game..

OK so taking an item wasnt the best idea, point taken

Also,yeap,why not,,actually lets put RP items to arena...everything should come to the game from arena..

GvG is a type of arena, its set up so that you either gain RP or lose GvG points

Even though few would like to see items removed from the ladder,bunch of players started PvP-ing because of them-yes there are multies,farmers,and other ways to cheat your way to the top...But for some reason I'd like to think that better solution would be to decrease cheating without removing the rewards-It would be harder-but it would also benefit the game a lot more than just placing those items in arena.

How many of those that started PvPing because of the rewards now have multis? This is also the same reason GvG is a joke because people are using multis to farm RP. I dont remember this big of a prob before the rewards. PvP was PvP



#39 fs_reylalo

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 17:15

I still don't understand how the brackets will work or if they are even fair. The lower lvl people in the bracket will always be at a disadvantage. say the bracket is from 70 to 100. How would it be fair for a player with almost a set full of epics to be attacking a lower lvl? PvP should be attacking and defending at your level range, not 20 levels above you.

#40 fs_reylalo

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 17:17

As for the bb, just leave rating loss in there. It is still pvp so you should lose gold , exp, and rating.


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