Jump to content

This is how you Fix PvP - Proposal updated


  • Please log in to reply
246 replies to this topic

Poll: Does this system appeal to you? (113 member(s) have cast votes)

Does this system appeal to you?

  1. Voted Yes (66 votes [58.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.41%

  2. Voted No (34 votes [30.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.09%

  3. Voted Some parts do (explain) (13 votes [11.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.50%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41 SirAdmiral

SirAdmiral

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 733 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:45

my take on rating snipped from a post in another thread that died. I wont even bother grabbing the post because even if it is a good idea I'm just a dumb level 91. This was pre-25 max rating transfer so understand that.

If you are rated 1000 you cannot take 100 from a 1500, period. In order to take 100 rating you must be within 100 rating or less of your target. Next, the further you are away from the target rating wise the less rating you can take.

The amounts of rating a 1500 can lose from lower rated players. 1500 is the example.

1400-1499 = 80-100
1300-1399 = 60-79
1200-1299 = 40-59
1100-1199 = 20-39
1000-1099 = 1-19
0000-0999 = 0


Your system is probably better though considering it would take longer to climb the ladder (as it should) and no drastic drops though I still think there should be a rating ceiling and you then sink others ratings to try and keep from losing your spot.

if you don't think my proposal is retarded or could work with a mod the whole post is - viewtopic.php?p=1076557#p1076557

#42 fs_gravely

fs_gravely
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 04:27


4. Hor, I realize you like the range. So do I and every other pvper. However, it's blatantly unfair to all the levelers, and even I can see that. +/- 10 is pretty darn big, considering that's four times the range we used to be able to take exp from.


Cloak while hunting
Deflect while hunting
PvP Opt out
Protect gold
Low Thievery rates
Low Master Thievery rates

Given the above factors I see absolutely no reason to decrease the range. I think the increased range is healthy for the game.


All legitimate.

However, I don't think that the rest of the community necessarily agrees that that's healthy. I'm trying to get as broad an appeal going as possible here; I'm willing to revert to a +/- 10 range if PVP was by and large fixed.

p.s. I'm pretty sure you understand I am talking about being able to hit for gold. In which case it is only really 2 times the available targets from before(+-10 instead of +-5), just no exp was taken from the -5 and that change was made quite a while ago now. If we are just talking about taking exp then for some this is actually a reduction in the # of people they can hit for exp as the ends of the brackets are not currently allowed to hit out of bracket. So a X00 can only hit X00-X10 and a X99 can only hit X89-X99(excluding lower levels of course)


I realized you were talking about gold, but I wanted to address both reasons that people like you and I hit other players. It's still twice the size. And as for the brackets, I'm hoping that gets treated as a bug and fixed, because it should be.

p.s.s. You made no mention of minimum number of hits to obtain a reward. This especially applies to the Upper most brackets where when someone will get to 1100, 1200, etc.. They will automatically be rewarded PvP tokens for literally doing no pvp.


This is where slimming down the ladders, predicating that players must initiate combat to be on the ladder (which is how it was the first time rewards entered the equation, I'm mystified as to why that was changed) and further discussion gets involved. Players that don't actively participate will never be big winners, and I can't ram through each and every single fix that would be a good (or even great) idea.

My main concern at this point is that I and many of the rest of us in the PVP community agree on broad brush conceptual ideas of what the game should be doing to gauge dominance, and the last few updates seem to indicate that the Cows are playing blind man's bluff with our facet of the game and are going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

#43 SirAdmiral

SirAdmiral

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 733 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 04:43

To add to what I said I also think there should be a minimum number of wins to obtain a prize.

#44 fs_avalbane

fs_avalbane
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 13:11

BUMP!

#45 Khanate

Khanate

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 14:35

2. Having only 25 people on the ladder after a certain level is meant to prevent having extremely low amounts of rating from appearing and having access to bracket ranges; again, this is negotiable. While I realize having more players on the ladder is more desirable for those players who have fewer targets and want the wide range to hit them, that's not necessarily an issue when the maximum rating in a given bracket isn't very high. As populations in given brackets expand, as hor noted, the cows can increase. For now, it's a good starting point.


I still think that anyone who wants to PvP should have access to hitting all other PvP'ers in that bracket. One PvP hit = open for the entire bracket, kinda like 'flagging' in the PvE servers of that other MMO.

Furthermore, you make no mention of the bounty board. What would you do with that pink elephant?

#46 fs_mrwright

fs_mrwright
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 15:20

Speaking of the bounty board, in an idea pvpers world, no rating could be transferred there...the potential for a 250 point swing over 20 minutes is a bit broken.

#47 fs_imetalusi

fs_imetalusi
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 15:34

This will be my last attempt.

Here is a comprehensive system to balance PVP as much as possible between all competing interests - the hardcore pvper, the casual interested rating hound, and the leveler.

HITS

There will be two ranges. The old +/- 10 level range (and +/-5 for sub level 200) and the bracket range.

There will also be the new hit range - the ability to hit up and down the entire length of the bracket.

Only players who are on the ladder of a given bracket will have access to this range, and they will only be able to target other players on the ladder with that range.

ALL attacks will cause EXP loss, dependent on stamina and EXP locks.

ALL attacks will be bountyable.

RATING

Gloat will be removed.

Honor will be removed, but the rating gain of all attacks will be reduced.

A 100 stam hit will grant 25 rating at maximum, 5 at minimum, depending on rating difference.

A 10 stam hit will grant 5 rating maximum, 1 rating at minimum, depending on rating difference. Rating floors (+/- 200 rating) will be enforced such that if a player has 200 less rating than you, they cannot be defeated for further rating gain.

If a player has more than 200 rating than you do, you cannot gain rating from them for any reason.

Ladders

Ladders will be reduced to 25 players post level 400.

The top 10 will be awarded 1 token, the top 5 will be awarded 2 tokens, and 1st through 3rd will be awarded as they are now.

The top 25 will be awarded a broken token. So many broken tokens will be redeemable for 1 token.



Simply put I voted Yes... But I would like to see more tokens to reward stam use for those who dont buy FSP, and those like me who like to EARN it.

#48 fs_gravely

fs_gravely
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 15:38

I still think that anyone who wants to PvP should have access to hitting all other PvP'ers in that bracket. One PvP hit = open for the entire bracket, kinda like 'flagging' in the PvE servers of that other MMO.


If EXP is involved, and players risk their EXP, I am more okay with this than the current system. However, in the present environment, it would be possible to "flag" yourself and constantly harass the leader while they were vulnerable, even if you yourself have no intention or interest in gaining rating or participating in PVP beyond preventing a single player from having a decent rating.

At the same time, they couldn't take anything from you that you cared about beyond the odd 10 stam bounty, and if they have a lot more rating than you, even if you lose a hit they cannot gain rating. Obviously, if they have nothing to gain, and everything to lose, there is a problem there.

Furthermore, you make no mention of the bounty board. What would you do with that pink elephant?


The board at this time is broken, badly. Rating hasn't been adjusted for board gains to account the new limits on hourly hits.

I would personally expand it such that more than just other players in your bracket can take rating; it's reasonable to me to see a level 700 player getting 1 per hit from me, and a level 400 player should, if they know what they're doing, make things interesting for me.

Maximum per hit would be 3 per win, minimum 1 until rating gap is achieved if a floor system was the way forward.

#49 fs_imetalusi

fs_imetalusi
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 16:00

Furthermore, you make no mention of the bounty board. What would you do with that pink elephant?

The board at this time is broken, badly. Rating hasn't been adjusted for board gains to account the new limits on hourly hits.

I would personally expand it such that more than just other players in your bracket can take rating; it's reasonable to me to see a level 700 player getting 1 per hit from me, and a level 400 player should, if they know what they're doing, make things interesting for me.

Maximum per hit would be 3 per win, minimum 1 until rating gap is achieved if a floor system was the way forward.


sooooo the bounty hunters will have an advantage over the PvP players for rating? :shock:

#50 Bleltch

Bleltch

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,784 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 16:34

This will be my last attempt.

Here is a comprehensive system to balance PVP as much as possible between all competing interests - the hardcore pvper, the casual interested rating hound, and the leveler.

You forgot one of the major interests, the worst one. The cheaters and point traders out for nothing but the rewards. None of the changes you propose are going to do any more than possibly slow them down slightly. A group of players working together will easily be able to dominate the ladder bands, sharing the rewards. We'll be seeing more and more of it as long as the rewards remain. And hoof has said they will not be taken out.

edit> sorry to bring my negativity here but the pvp we came to know and love is gone. I dont think it's coming back. I think hoof wants a kinder, gentler pvp, and if a lot of stam gets burnt in the process it's that much better.

#51 fs_imetalusi

fs_imetalusi
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 17:04

This will be my last attempt.

Here is a comprehensive system to balance PVP as much as possible between all competing interests - the hardcore pvper, the casual interested rating hound, and the leveler.

You forgot one of the major interests, the worst one. The cheaters and point traders out for nothing but the rewards. None of the changes you propose are going to do any more than possibly slow them down slightly. A group of players working together will easily be able to dominate the ladder bands, sharing the rewards. We'll be seeing more and more of it as long as the rewards remain. And hoof has said they will not be taken out.

edit> sorry to bring my negativity here but the pvp we came to know and love is gone. I dont think it's coming back. I think hoof wants a kinder, gentler pvp, and if a lot of stam gets burnt in the process it's that much better.



Budro, why must we bow to cheaters or point traders? You say remove Rewards? Just so the few stains in the game don't get paid? Well what about us who do nothing but PvP? Is there even the smallest chance that a player is doing it for the rewards and at the same time having fun *its why we all play right* getting some massive FSP to me is fun as hell. Contributing to my guild and slowly building an arsenal of the best gear in the game is also fun. PvP is gone? HuH? You should see my Log LMAO!... I say its alive though not perfect...

What does a Leveler contribute to his guild? Gold and Exp.
A Players who GvG's? RP for gold and buff packs, Epics
Titan Hunters = FSP, Epics
PvP Players.. Red headed step children who take all the risks, and can only compete with the top gear and buffs if they stay active in order to compete with in 100 levels = ZERO? *naw I dont think so*

#52 fs_gravely

fs_gravely
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 17:26

You forgot one of the major interests, the worst one. The cheaters and point traders out for nothing but the rewards. None of the changes you propose are going to do any more than possibly slow them down slightly. A group of players working together will easily be able to dominate the ladder bands, sharing the rewards. We'll be seeing more and more of it as long as the rewards remain. And hoof has said they will not be taken out.

edit> sorry to bring my negativity here but the pvp we came to know and love is gone. I dont think it's coming back. I think hoof wants a kinder, gentler pvp, and if a lot of stam gets burnt in the process it's that much better.


Bleltch, I respect you. You are one of the single biggest names in this game when it comes to PVP, and your opinion counts.

But you have criticized at every turn every legitimate attempt to try and fix a broken system. I wish I could make you happy, but I realized quite some time ago that that wasn't possible. If it's not how it was when you were clearing that truly ungodly number of bounties, I don't think you'd be happy.

I would like to go back to that time as well. But I don't see that happening.

#53 fs_scrogger

fs_scrogger
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 17:36

Here we go! From FSBox: #*#*#* Selling PvP rating points PM me for details :-) *#*#*#

Is this what FS has come to?

Oh and Im buying bounties on this guy too, let me know if you have one:)

#54 Bleltch

Bleltch

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,784 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 18:36

Bleltch, I respect you. You are one of the single biggest names in this game when it comes to PVP, and your opinion counts.

But you have criticized at every turn every legitimate attempt to try and fix a broken system. I wish I could make you happy, but I realized quite some time ago that that wasn't possible. If it's not how it was when you were clearing that truly ungodly number of bounties, I don't think you'd be happy.

I would like to go back to that time as well. But I don't see that happening.

Weather it makes me happy or not isn't the issue. How many bounties i clear isn't the issue. The profound change in what a pvper is now is my issue. Pvp was a reward in itself, if not stealing gold, then by standing up for what you believed in. Being willing to fight out your differences, to stand up for yourself, your guild mates and your friends. To put you stam and levels on the line without thinking of yourself.

The new trend for what a pvper is is much different now. They're going the way of pansies, only out for themselves. They're looking for the easiest, softest way to get their precious rewards. Trying to make the most profit is there main concern. Even some of the hard core pvpers have jumped ship for what we have now.

And you're right, i'm not friggin happy at all. But it's not about me, it's about waht i see happening around me. The part of the game i came to love is being drastically changed for the worse IMO. And the reason i'm critical of the changes you propose is because they dont address what i see to be the major problem, you dont even mention it!!!

Sorry i f-ed up your thread. :(

#55 fs_gravely

fs_gravely
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 18:55

Weather it makes me happy or not isn't the issue. How many bounties i clear isn't the issue. The profound change in what a pvper is now is my issue. Pvp was a reward in itself, if not stealing gold, then by standing up for what you believed in. Being willing to fight out your differences, to stand up for yourself, your guild mates and your friends. To put you stam and levels on the line without thinking of yourself.


Absolutely agree, that's how I've always operated. It's how a PvP player should operate.

The new trend for what a pvper is is much different now. They're going the way of pansies, only out for themselves. They're looking for the easiest, softest way to get their precious rewards. Trying to make the most profit is there main concern. Even some of the hard core pvpers have jumped ship for what we have now.


I guess that depends on what you call jumping ship. If by jumping ship you mean participating in the new system, I don't see how you can blame people for playing the game.

If by jumping ship you mean that they have compromised their morals, however, that's different, and I feel that by and large that is due to having a succession of systems in place that encouraged and rewarded farming, exploits, and collusion.

If you fix the system, I believe PVP can return to a cleaner state. I think rewards need to be removed to make that a reality as well, but I can't suggest what admins have stated, categorically, that they will not do.

And the reason i'm critical of the changes you propose is because they dont address what i see to be the major problem, you dont even mention it!!!


You want back to antebellum, and well, that's not going to happen. It sucks. But there it is.

Sorry i f-ed up your thread. :(


lol, like I said, man, your opinion counts. Posting in good faith could never "f up" the thread ;)

#56 celendais

celendais

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,424 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 19:04

while I agree 99% with Bletch and share his loss of the old way, Hoof was clear on not removing PVP-tokens.

So what can be done?

Help HCS tune , bandiad, upgrade, fix the worst loopholes and glitches . Like Gravely has tried so many times now ( to no big avail sadly)

And in-game do a bt of police work...

#57 Bleltch

Bleltch

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,784 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 19:10

If you fix the system, I believe PVP can return to a cleaner state. I think rewards need to be removed to make that a reality as well, but I can't suggest what admins have stated, categorically, that they will not do.

I truly dont see any other way. What ever changes are made there will be ways to cheat and exploit the system. There is one bit of hope left: They also said on numerous occasions there would never be an opt out. So they can change their mind. *crosses fingers*

#58 Khanate

Khanate

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 19:27

I still think that anyone who wants to PvP should have access to hitting all other PvP'ers in that bracket. One PvP hit = open for the entire bracket, kinda like 'flagging' in the PvE servers of that other MMO.


If EXP is involved, and players risk their EXP, I am more okay with this than the current system. However, in the present environment, it would be possible to "flag" yourself and constantly harass the leader while they were vulnerable, even if you yourself have no intention or interest in gaining rating or participating in PVP beyond preventing a single player from having a decent rating.

At the same time, they couldn't take anything from you that you cared about beyond the odd 10 stam bounty, and if they have a lot more rating than you, even if you lose a hit they cannot gain rating. Obviously, if they have nothing to gain, and everything to lose, there is a problem there.


I am building on your system, which I think is a strong basis to build a reasonable system on. So, of course, 'flagged' players are only able to hit players in the extended range that are also 'flagged'.

And yes, a player would be able to jump in and attack the person in the lead. But that is the nature of the current point trading system which promotes attacking the person with the most points possible, to which leos and myself have proposed a solution: making rating gain more for players with rating closer to your own and less to those further (up and down) from your own.

Furthermore, you make no mention of the bounty board. What would you do with that pink elephant?


The board at this time is broken, badly. Rating hasn't been adjusted for board gains to account the new limits on hourly hits.

I would personally expand it such that more than just other players in your bracket can take rating; it's reasonable to me to see a level 700 player getting 1 per hit from me, and a level 400 player should, if they know what they're doing, make things interesting for me.

Maximum per hit would be 3 per win, minimum 1 until rating gap is achieved if a floor system was the way forward.


Under such a system the boarders would still be heavily rewarded. 1-5 for off the board 10 stam versus 1-3 for on the board 10 stam. I think that either a digit needs to be added (1.0 to 5.0 for 10 stam and 0.1 to 0.5 for on the board 10 stam) or all numbers should be multiplied by 10 (10 to 50 off the board 10 stam and 1 to 5 on the board 10 stam with a base 10000 rating). I don't see any other solution for a long-term fix to the balance between on and off the board PvP.


PS : Update the original post as you go along. This thread will turn into what we did with titans.

#59 Khanate

Khanate

    Veteran

  • New Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 07 December 2010 - 19:30



Bleltch, I respect you. You are one of the single biggest names in this game when it comes to PVP, and your opinion counts.

But you have criticized at every turn every legitimate attempt to try and fix a broken system. I wish I could make you happy, but I realized quite some time ago that that wasn't possible. If it's not how it was when you were clearing that truly ungodly number of bounties, I don't think you'd be happy.

I would like to go back to that time as well. But I don't see that happening.

Weather it makes me happy or not isn't the issue. How many bounties i clear isn't the issue. The profound change in what a pvper is now is my issue. Pvp was a reward in itself, if not stealing gold, then by standing up for what you believed in. Being willing to fight out your differences, to stand up for yourself, your guild mates and your friends. To put you stam and levels on the line without thinking of yourself.

The new trend for what a pvper is is much different now. They're going the way of pansies, only out for themselves. They're looking for the easiest, softest way to get their precious rewards. Trying to make the most profit is there main concern. Even some of the hard core pvpers have jumped ship for what we have now.

And you're right, i'm not friggin happy at all. But it's not about me, it's about waht i see happening around me. The part of the game i came to love is being drastically changed for the worse IMO. And the reason i'm critical of the changes you propose is because they dont address what i see to be the major problem, you dont even mention it!!!

Sorry i f-ed up your thread. :(


The best solution is indeed a working system with no rewards. We currently have a non-working system with rewards. As much as we'd all like to go back to no rewards, that isn't feasible. Furthermore, this thread is on how to transform the non-working system into a working one, regardless of reward or no reward.

#60 fs_gravely

fs_gravely
  • Guests

Posted 07 December 2010 - 19:40

And yes, a player would be able to jump in and attack the person in the lead. But that is the nature of the current point trading system which promotes attacking the person with the most points possible, to which leos and myself have proposed a solution: making rating gain more for players with rating closer to your own and less to those further (up and down) from your own.


As I said, either system provides a potential solution. I'll quote both in the OP to give the cows an option of whichever would be easier to implement. Due to feedback, I'll also update the floor system to be a 300 point gap, not a 200.

Under such a system the boarders would still be heavily rewarded. 1-5 for off the board 10 stam versus 1-3 for on the board 10 stam. I think that either a digit needs to be added (1.0 to 5.0 for 10 stam and 0.1 to 0.5 for on the board 10 stam) or all numbers should be multiplied by 10 (10 to 50 off the board 10 stam and 1 to 5 on the board 10 stam with a base 10000 rating). I don't see any other solution for a long-term fix to the balance between on and off the board PvP.


Khan, you're viewing it from a leveler's perspective. If you 10-0 someone on the board, they had 10 chances to beat you as opposed to 1 chance off the board. Additionally, you're forgetting that the conversion rate shouldn't be considered as a 10 stam on the board, 10 stam off, but rather 10 10 stams on the board and 1 100 stam off.

That conversion rate is 30 rating for a 10-0 clear at maximum as opposed to 25 rating for a single 100 stam at maximum off the board.

As soon as one or two combats are won by the defender, the gain is neutral. If you completely dominate someone on the board, who has a long period of time to be buffed, switch sets, and attempt to compete, as opposed to a completely unpredictable swing from nowhere, you SHOULD gain more rating on a per hit basis.

PS : Update the original post as you go along. This thread will turn into what we did with titans.


Done.


1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

Font:
Arial | Calibri | Lucida Console | Verdana
 
Font Size:
9px | 10px | 11px | 12px | 10pt | 12pt
 
Color: