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Prestige Trading's Ugly Face Is Back


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Poll: How to fix Prestige Trading. How to fix it? (94 member(s) have cast votes)

How to fix Prestige Trading. How to fix it?

  1. Voted Allow xp, gold, and rating to be taken from anyone within your band (32 votes [34.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.04%

  2. Voted Allow only rating to be gained within your band outside +/- 10 levels, not Prestige (23 votes [24.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.47%

  3. Voted It's fine the way it is. (39 votes [41.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.49%

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#61 dowuones

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 14:05

Came up in another thread.

Change PvP prestige from max 10 % bonus earned from monsters to max 10% of exp stolen in PvP combat you initiate added to your exp.

This should cut down on the trading as the bonus is only useful to PvPers.


Adding xp gain to PvP hits would just double the complaining/fight/hate/flaming threads in forum... i think we already have more than enough of them.
Just change Prestige bonus from XP to a buff PvP related and trading will stop (in no time).

#62 sweetlou

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 14:22

The FSBox prohibition is a joke - and it's impact on RP trading is minimal. People who are willing to trade RP don't really need to advertise on FSBox, it's a natural evolution (same as relic "agreements" among top guilds). Over time, I'm convinced that whole networks have been built of guilds that simply know... have a list of guilds that will not fight back when 50 or maybe even 49 hits are scored - and forbidding it on FSBox now is closing the barn door after the horse has bolted (and, in fact, closing a barn door that is just the biggest and easiest escape route from that barn, while many others remain).

BTW, XP loss only hurts people with low max stam. I know that at least the 1% would be still largely profitable for me, so I could easily find a "partner" to hit, send him 2 FSP as compensation for the XP loss and still make much more with the +1% of my weekly stam. But I cannot be bothered, the last time I had the PvP prestige on was something like 20 hunts back.
I cannot be bothered to do the math, whether it'd be profitable to trade oneself more than the 1%.The theoretical profitability is where 50 stam (2 FSP paid as compensation) is less than 1% of your total stam - so everybody with more than 5k stam would get net XP profit from "buying" 1PvP hit per hunt.

Instead of thinking up ways to prevent trading/abuse, let's try to remove the INCENTIVE to abuse it in the first place. If we convince Hoof to change the PvP Prestige bonus to just about ANYTHING PvP related (i.e. extra few % of ALL PvP enhancements, with duration of 12 hours, or whatnot), this whole issue will disappear, because it will be only PvPers who will go for PvP prestige.

I'm not arguing against you here. You must agree that although the FSBox prohibition doesn't prevent much, it does in the spirit of keeping FS a game by the devs try to, I hope? We don't need to come up with new ways to prevent this Prestige manipulation of the game. It was already fixed by adding xp loss + and - from any level. The introduction of bands broke Prestige again.

To keep FS a game that isn't a joke, ALL attacks made need to take xp, gold, and rating. I like the +3 day rule outside the BB on every attack to earn Prestige. It makes sense. My biggest problem is that players have started advertising in their bios bounty-free hits specifically for Prestige AND now even PvP rating. If a player doesn't lose their almighty xp they couldn't give a hoot if they're attacked! This is wrong and a blatant manipulation of the Prestige bonus against the way the game has been played until now. Rating passers will be sorted out easily by genuine PvPers. That I'm sure. Changing the Prestige bonus to something other than an xp bonus could be an answer. However, I like leveling AND PvP, playing the WHOLE game and earning my way through it. What frustrates me is that I attack players without agreement(earn it) while others form Prestige trading groups. This diminishes the game's integrity, something I care about. I want my money's worth...

Those that want to find ways to make their accomplishments in their gaming experience easy will always be there. I just don't want HCS to hand them the 'win' button...

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#63 Khanate

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 14:45

The FSBox prohibition is a joke - and it's impact on RP trading is minimal. People who are willing to trade RP don't really need to advertise on FSBox, it's a natural evolution (same as relic "agreements" among top guilds). Over time, I'm convinced that whole networks have been built of guilds that simply know... have a list of guilds that will not fight back when 50 or maybe even 49 hits are scored - and forbidding it on FSBox now is closing the barn door after the horse has bolted (and, in fact, closing a barn door that is just the biggest and easiest escape route from that barn, while many others remain).

BTW, XP loss only hurts people with low max stam. I know that at least the 1% would be still largely profitable for me, so I could easily find a "partner" to hit, send him 2 FSP as compensation for the XP loss and still make much more with the +1% of my weekly stam. But I cannot be bothered, the last time I had the PvP prestige on was something like 20 hunts back.
I cannot be bothered to do the math, whether it'd be profitable to trade oneself more than the 1%.The theoretical profitability is where 50 stam (2 FSP paid as compensation) is less than 1% of your total stam - so everybody with more than 5k stam would get net XP profit from "buying" 1PvP hit per hunt.

Instead of thinking up ways to prevent trading/abuse, let's try to remove the INCENTIVE to abuse it in the first place. If we convince Hoof to change the PvP Prestige bonus to just about ANYTHING PvP related (i.e. extra few % of ALL PvP enhancements, with duration of 12 hours, or whatnot), this whole issue will disappear, because it will be only PvPers who will go for PvP prestige.

I'm not arguing against you here. You must agree that although the FSBox prohibition doesn't prevent much, it does in the spirit of keeping FS a game by the devs try to, I hope? We don't need to come up with new ways to prevent this Prestige manipulation of the game. It was already fixed by adding xp loss + and - from any level. The introduction of bands broke Prestige again.

To keep FS a game that isn't a joke, ALL attacks made need to take xp, gold, and rating. I like the +3 day rule outside the BB on every attack to earn Prestige. It makes sense. My biggest problem is that players have started advertising in their bios bounty-free hits specifically for Prestige AND now even PvP rating. If a player doesn't lose their almighty xp they couldn't give a hoot if they're attacked! This is wrong and a blatant manipulation of the Prestige bonus against the way the game has been played until now. Rating passers will be sorted out easily by genuine PvPers. That I'm sure. Changing the Prestige bonus to something other than an xp bonus could be an answer. However, I like leveling AND PvP, playing the WHOLE game and earning my way through it. What frustrates me is that I attack players without agreement(earn it) while others form Prestige trading groups. This diminishes the game's integrity, something I care about. I want my money's worth...

Those that want to find ways to make their accomplishments in their gaming experience easy will always be there. I just don't want HCS to hand them the 'win' button...


Yes, XP and gold losses need to happen on all hits. But the extended range shouldn't apply to non-PvP'ers.

#64 sweetlou

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 15:15

Yes, XP and gold losses need to happen on all hits. But the extended range shouldn't apply to non-PvP'ers.

Don't forget rating and Presige off the BB every three days... but I agree with you except, where we differ is that you want to exclude players from half of the game. Why? Some players don't like PvP, sure, but it has been until now a mandatory part of the game, at least before the opt-out HCS revenue option. Some players want to play in a bubble, isolated from all else but most of all from losing precious xp. I'm curious why 2 level up points and 5 skill points are so valuable. Only a very small percentage of players will ever hit the EOC. I believe the majority of players accept PvP as part of the game. So lose the labels of PvPers vs. Levelers.

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#65 Khanate

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 17:55

Yes, XP and gold losses need to happen on all hits. But the extended range shouldn't apply to non-PvP'ers.

Don't forget rating and Presige off the BB every three days... but I agree with you except, where we differ is that you want to exclude players from half of the game. Why? Some players don't like PvP, sure, but it has been until now a mandatory part of the game, at least before the opt-out HCS revenue option. Some players want to play in a bubble, isolated from all else but most of all from losing precious xp. I'm curious why 2 level up points and 5 skill points are so valuable. Only a very small percentage of players will ever hit the EOC. I believe the majority of players accept PvP as part of the game. So lose the labels of PvPers vs. Levelers.


I think of the extended range as a way to have PvP players fight amongst each other for the top rather than hiding in dead ranges, nothing else. And by the fact that there is no exp and gold losses in the extended range, I'm inclined to think that HCS agree with this. The goal was not to extend the range of PvP with consequences to a wider audience, but to allow PvP'ers competing amongst each other to battle each other. However, this came with the consequence of making PvP a joke and to encourage free hits.

My goal is to make PvP less of a joke and to deter free hits and trading, but since the extended range is mostly a way to allow ladder-running players to hit everyone they are competing against there is no need to extend this to players who do not care at all about the ladder. Extending this to everyone in the extended range would also promote farming of semi-actives and other people who won't retaliate. This isn't good for the ladder and it isn't good for people who don't give a rat's *** about PvP.

My solution allows no opt-out, people who don't protect their gold are still under the threat of getting their gold stolen just like 3 months ago.

PS: I don't think leveler is a proper label. I don't use it for the simple reason that someone who levels can also PvP. I use the labels PvP'ers and non-PvP'ers because they are labels which correctly points at whether people PvP or not regardless of their other in-game activities.

#66 fs_coyotik

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 23:55

I'm not arguing against you here. You must agree that although the FSBox prohibition doesn't prevent much, it does in the spirit of keeping FS a game by the devs try to, I hope?


Unfortunately I have a feeling that whenever the devs realize that they screwed up, instead of doing things correctly, they go for quite lame attempts at either restricting things or declaring them illegal, with very limited means to actually enforce it. Only a total idiot will advertise on FSbox when it only takes either a little trial and error or a few subtle hints in private messages...

We don't need to come up with new ways to prevent this Prestige manipulation of the game. It was already fixed by adding xp loss + and - from any level.


No, it wasn't fixed. It was merely made less effective, and more so for people with low max stam. Somebody with 50k max would still be well off by paying out compensations to accumulate his 10% bonus, and everybody at about 10k has a clear benefit at least for the 1% bonus.

I like the +3 day rule outside the BB on every attack to earn Prestige. It makes sense.


No, it doesn't make any sense. Why should it be possible to steal gold and cause XP loss every hour, but get prestige only once in 3 days? There's no sense in it, it's just a bad attempt to restrict something that should never have cropped up in the first place.

My biggest problem is that players have started advertising in their bios bounty-free hits specifically for Prestige AND now even PvP rating. If a player doesn't lose their almighty xp they couldn't give a hoot if they're attacked! This is wrong and a blatant manipulation of the Prestige bonus against the way the game has been played until now.


Well, for people who work their asses off in efforts to squeeze every single bit of XP out of their stam, losing XP sucks a lot. I don't know if you ever levelled competitively in the hardest sense, if you ever got the thrill of doing your own research of the combat formulas and the probabilities of various buffs, good timing of quest reward claiming, exactly to be rewarded by reducing your monthly top competitor's lead by a meastly one level per month.

For these folks, as I mentioned already, even safe and free loss of PvP rating can be a very good reason for such bios. I am not in that camp anymore, as I am ahead in my monthly top and reasonably close to EOC not to give a damn about a few % of level, but I can understand how many people would be happy to have their PvP rating set to 0 just to be totally uninteresting for any PvP ladder hunters (who, again, are not necessarily real PvPers, just people who try to make FSP by any means available).

What frustrates me is that I attack players without agreement(earn it) while others form Prestige trading groups.


Do you get frustrated by people who have retired higher levels in their guilds providing them with all those neat buffs? Because that, in principle, is nothing but a trading group, either. Where many people don't have their group and have to buy the buffs at quite steep prices, some are lucky to get them for free. Having a bunch of free prestige providers is not any worse than that, it just spans across guilds.

(Yes, I'm stretching things a bit far on purpose, but the principle is quite similar. It's completely natural, people will ALWAYS use the game features in a way that is beneficial to them as groups. Relic agreements, spoken, written or silent, are nothing else, just people behaving rationally - and there, too, I believe in the solution of making it not WORTH trading instead of trying to come up with restrictions or with incentives to take relics)

Those that want to find ways to make their accomplishments in their gaming experience easy will always be there. I just don't want HCS to hand them the 'win' button...


I don't want that, either. But I am a friend of good systematic solutions. When you see anything in the game getting used in a way you didn't fancy when you designed it, it's usually much better to redesign it from scratch than to try and "channel" the usages to where you want them. GvG restrictions and PvP prestige restrictions are nice examples where Hoof presented us with multiple iterations that attempt with far from significant success to mitigate the amount of trading/abuse, where the real solutions would require much less time to implement... I don't know if he just refuses to admit failure or whether he actually enjoys this :), but I'm sure that FS would be a better game if he tried another approach. (And that's why I post here - while your suggestions would most likely do a decent job at reducing prestige trading, I don't want it just reduced, I want it stomped out)

#67 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:22

Yes, XP and gold losses need to happen on all hits. But the extended range shouldn't apply to non-PvP'ers.


If you mean make the extended range only for people on the ladder, then sure.

#68 centurion

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:31

if you want to prevent farming/agreement. just prevent pvp rating under 1k from being reset every time unless they pvp'd. Only over 1k or those who have pvp'd gets reset to 1k. This will automatically make non pvp'r worthless as pvp farming target in short time, and those who trade will become bigger target. combined this with xp/gold loss from the full range, and you solve 2 problem. those who wants out of pvp gets out (short of being attacked for gold) and those who pvp for rating will happily hit each other for rating.

such a simple idea to fix this issue.

#69 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:43

if you want to prevent farming/agreement. just prevent pvp rating under 1k from being reset every time unless they pvp'd. Only over 1k or those who have pvp'd gets reset to 1k. This will automatically make non pvp'r worthless as pvp farming target in short time, and those who trade will become bigger target. combined this with xp/gold loss from the full range, and you solve 2 problem. those who wants out of pvp gets out (short of being attacked for gold) and those who pvp for rating will happily hit each other for rating.

such a simple idea to fix this issue.


The problem is that that will result in a net loss in rating over time. If one person attacks another so that after the attack, the first has 1025 and the second has 975, and then the ladder resets, then afterward they will have 1000 and 975 respectively. 25 rating disappears from the game.

#70 centurion

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:59

if you want to prevent farming/agreement. just prevent pvp rating under 1k from being reset every time unless they pvp'd. Only over 1k or those who have pvp'd gets reset to 1k. This will automatically make non pvp'r worthless as pvp farming target in short time, and those who trade will become bigger target. combined this with xp/gold loss from the full range, and you solve 2 problem. those who wants out of pvp gets out (short of being attacked for gold) and those who pvp for rating will happily hit each other for rating.

such a simple idea to fix this issue.


The problem is that that will result in a net loss in rating over time. If one person attacks another so that after the attack, the first has 1025 and the second has 975, and then the ladder resets, then afterward they will have 1000 and 975 respectively. 25 rating disappears from the game.


loss of 25 rating only on those who NEVER PVP. Frankly, all these people are being farmed anyway, so disappearing rating should not matter much? what matters to the ladder is, who has the highest rating at the end before reset. we no longer have long term pvp ladder anyway. I always thought amount of stam used in kills makes more sense for who has been most successful pvp'r in overall sense.

we are trying to get rid of farming. killing offline person hardly show pvp prowess. I think this really does strike a balance.

#71 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:08

if you want to prevent farming/agreement. just prevent pvp rating under 1k from being reset every time unless they pvp'd. Only over 1k or those who have pvp'd gets reset to 1k. This will automatically make non pvp'r worthless as pvp farming target in short time, and those who trade will become bigger target. combined this with xp/gold loss from the full range, and you solve 2 problem. those who wants out of pvp gets out (short of being attacked for gold) and those who pvp for rating will happily hit each other for rating.

such a simple idea to fix this issue.


The problem is that that will result in a net loss in rating over time. If one person attacks another so that after the attack, the first has 1025 and the second has 975, and then the ladder resets, then afterward they will have 1000 and 975 respectively. 25 rating disappears from the game.


loss of 25 rating only on those who NEVER PVP. Frankly, all these people are being farmed anyway, so disappearing rating should not matter much? what matters to the ladder is, who has the highest rating at the end before reset. we no longer have long term pvp ladder anyway. I always thought amount of stam used in kills makes more sense for who has been most successful pvp'r in overall sense.

we are trying to get rid of farming. killing offline person hardly show pvp prowess. I think this really does strike a balance.


It's a short term solution, but it presents long term problems.

#72 centurion

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:20

long term issue in what way? except pvpr will have to work harder to win the ratings ladder, since faming will be gone. that could be an issue i guess. it will stop prestige trading, since they will still be target. what it does in the long run, is separate the pvp'r from non pvp'r in the ladder. make it more pure and worthy.

I am also proposing opening up the xp and gold loss to full range as well, so more opportunities for gold hit, but less chance for random hit, which are annoying to non pvp'rs. so it balances out.

#73 fs_nthnclls

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:23

long term issue in what way? except pvpr will have to work harder to win the ratings ladder, since faming will be gone. that could be an issue i guess. it will stop prestige trading, since they will still be target. what it does in the long run, is separate the pvp'r from non pvp'r in the ladder. make it more pure and worthy.

I am also proposing opening up the xp and gold loss to full range as well, so more opportunities for gold hit, but less chance for random hit, which are annoying to non pvp'rs. so it balances out.


I could explain it if I wasn't so tired lol. I give up.

#74 Khanate

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:47


Yes, XP and gold losses need to happen on all hits. But the extended range shouldn't apply to non-PvP'ers.


If you mean make the extended range only for people on the ladder, then sure.


Yes, exactly.

#75 sweetlou

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:42

We don't need to come up with new ways to prevent this Prestige manipulation of the game. It was already fixed by adding xp loss + and - from any level.

No, it wasn't fixed. It was merely made less effective, and more so for people with low max stam. Somebody with 50k max would still be well off by paying out compensations to accumulate his 10% bonus, and everybody at about 10k has a clear benefit at least for the 1% bonus.

I beg to differ. It was fixed good enough for me. Prestige trading was made totally ineffective thereby making it obsolete. Players that wanted to compensate, as you say, and pay or arrange for taking 1% of a level to achieve the 10 Prestige points with an agreement with others in their +/- 10 level range did not exist! The 3 day rule made it impossible, even if you had 100k max stam.

I like the +3 day rule outside the BB on every attack to earn Prestige. It makes sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense. Why should it be possible to steal gold and cause XP loss every hour, but get prestige only once in 3 days? There's no sense in it, it's just a bad attempt to restrict something that should never have cropped up in the first place.

It makes total sense to me. You need to gain Prestige from direct PvP every 3 days, gaining 10 points, or on the BB at anytime, one Prestige point at a time. Now, players lose absolutely nothing when attacked from outside their +/- 10 range. In fact many simply trade Prestige hits(THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD!). They don't care about rating. Yeah there's a slight risk that they'll bounty but not if their conspiring to manipulate the game. They almost never hit back authentic attacks. This new Prestige system has relegated PvP to something like GvG, where nothing is lost. It's been nerfed like a pillow fight. I hope the devs realize this and bring it back to when players who had guts were rewarded. We are playing virtual characters here.

My biggest problem is that players have started advertising in their bios bounty-free hits specifically for Prestige AND now even PvP rating. If a player doesn't lose their almighty xp they couldn't give a hoot if they're attacked! This is wrong and a blatant manipulation of the Prestige bonus against the way the game has been played until now.

Well, for people who work their asses off in efforts to squeeze every single bit of XP out of their stam, losing XP sucks a lot. I don't know if you ever levelled competitively in the hardest sense, if you ever got the thrill of doing your own research of the combat formulas and the probabilities of various buffs, good timing of quest reward claiming, exactly to be rewarded by reducing your monthly top competitor's lead by a meastly one level per month.

For these folks, as I mentioned already, even safe and free loss of PvP rating can be a very good reason for such bios. I am not in that camp anymore, as I am ahead in my monthly top and reasonably close to EOC not to give a damn about a few % of level, but I can understand how many people would be happy to have their PvP rating set to 0 just to be totally uninteresting for any PvP ladder hunters (who, again, are not necessarily real PvPers, just people who try to make FSP by any means available).

If you care about every single xp then you also care as much about the stam it takes to get that xp. First off, that is selfish play. Ok, some play like that and that is their prerogative. Only the fewest number of players ever reach EOC. It takes money donated/time/being good at something else to earn the dots to buy stam to get there. Calculating stam efficiency for leveling doesn't take a doctorate. Players sacrifice stam used in other pursuits, otherwise more players would be at EOC. This is achieved playing many aspects of the game. Hell, I'd still be there if I hadn't pursued other facets that I enjoy.

What frustrates me is that I attack players without agreement(earn it) while others form Prestige trading groups.

Do you get frustrated by people who have retired higher levels in their guilds providing them with all those neat buffs? Because that, in principle, is nothing but a trading group, either. Where many people don't have their group and have to buy the buffs at quite steep prices, some are lucky to get them for free. Having a bunch of free prestige providers is not any worse than that, it just spans across guilds.

(Yes, I'm stretching things a bit far on purpose, but the principle is quite similar. It's completely natural, people will ALWAYS use the game features in a way that is beneficial to them as groups. Relic agreements, spoken, written or silent, are nothing else, just people behaving rationally - and there, too, I believe in the solution of making it not WORTH trading instead of trying to come up with restrictions or with incentives to take relics)

Of course I get frustrated by cheaters driving long ago retired player's accounts. This needs to be reported so that HCS can terminate the retired player's character and the cheat. Until that happens it goes unchecked by HCS. This occurs so players can not only give others buffs, but also for deleveling, gaining more gxp in their guild and to retrieve/store untagged gear in the retired players pack. Trading free hits is nothing similar to cheating in the matter you mentioned, not as long as HCS allows it to happen. Again, the subject of this thread pertains to the fact that trading should not be allowed. The answer is to make ALL attacks take xp, gold and rating. Prestige will still be gained on the BB or every 3 days.

Those that want to find ways to make their accomplishments in their gaming experience easy will always be there. I just don't want HCS to hand them the 'win' button...

I don't want that, either. But I am a friend of good systematic solutions. When you see anything in the game getting used in a way you didn't fancy when you designed it, it's usually much better to redesign it from scratch than to try and "channel" the usages to where you want them. GvG restrictions and PvP prestige restrictions are nice examples where Hoof presented us with multiple iterations that attempt with far from significant success to mitigate the amount of trading/abuse, where the real solutions would require much less time to implement... I don't know if he just refuses to admit failure or whether he actually enjoys this :), but I'm sure that FS would be a better game if he tried another approach. (And that's why I post here - while your suggestions would most likely do a decent job at reducing prestige trading, I don't want it just reduced, I want it stomped out)

I think we can both agree that accomplishments, however small or large, need to be EARNED! What kind of message do we send the youth here playing this game, that the result always justify the means by which you achieve it? It's a bad message. I don't think the devs go out of their way to make things worse in the game, but it has happened. Where we do disagree is that you don't believe Prestige trading was stopped when taking xp occurred to gain Prestige. I do. I want Prestige to be earned again!

PS Coyotic, while we may not agree with many things I do respect your well written replies. You make me think about things and for that I thank you. :)

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“When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” -GRRM


#76 fs_theggold

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:43

=(

There is more farmers then normal PvPers here...

#77 fs_coyotik

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:14

[quote name="luisspamer"]Prestige trading was made totally ineffective thereby making it obsolete.
[/quote]

That's not true. As far as I know, you only need 1 point to achieve 1% increase in XP, so if you can obtain that one point by either trading hits with somebody or by hitting somebody and paying them enough FSP to get the XP back (about 2 FSP = 50 stam), the net effect for you is still about the same - you lose the XP from the one hit. If 1% of total XP is greater than this loss, it's worth for you to trade.

[quote]
Players that wanted to compensate, as you say, and pay or arrange for taking 1% of a level to achieve the 10 Prestige points with an agreement with others in their +/- 10 level range did not exist! The 3 day rule made it impossible, even if you had 100k max stam.
[/quote]

No, it only made it impossible at high levels where there is not enough possible targets to make the agreement with - but since we're talking about RELATIVE competition anyway, if it's no longer feasible to get 10% for me, neither it is for anybody around me, and that's who I compete with, so it actually makes little difference. People still go for the 1% bonus because it's worth the effort - and if they had enough max stam and enough trading partners, they'd still go for 10%. And if it takes 50 hits at 1 hit per person per 6k stam (3 days), you need 6k max stam and 50 friends, 12k maxstam and 25 friends, 24k maxstam and 12.5 friends... So, people with high maxstam would naturally, rationally, form trading circles that would basically ensure for them to stay ahead of people with lower max stam.

[quote name="coyotik"][quote name="luisspamer"]I like the +3 day rule outside the BB on every attack to earn Prestige. It makes sense.[/quote]
No, it doesn't make any sense. Why should it be possible to steal gold and cause XP loss every hour, but get prestige only once in 3 days? There's no sense in it, it's just a bad attempt to restrict something that should never have cropped up in the first place.[/quote]

[quote] Now, players lose absolutely nothing when attacked from outside their +/- 10 range. In fact many simply trade Prestige hits(THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD!). [/quote]

Yes, I agree that the situation has been made worse, no doubt about it.

[quote]They almost never hit back authentic attacks.[/quote]

And why would they hit back? They have almost nothing to gain and a lot to lose by hitting back.


[quote]If you care about every single xp then you also care as much about the stam it takes to get that xp. First off, that is selfish play. Ok, some play like that and that is their prerogative. Only the fewest number of players ever reach EOC. It takes money donated/time/being good at something else to earn the dots to buy stam to get there. Calculating stam efficiency for leveling doesn't take a doctorate.
[/quote]

But it's not trivial either. There's a lot of people who think they're doing it right and they don't ;). And especially those who got there without having a FSP source, be it cash or trading or pots, may be quite sensitive about their XP. It applied to me as well some time ago, although these days I don't care much, having different priorities in my life, like family.

[quote]Trading free hits is nothing similar to cheating in the matter you mentioned, not as long as HCS allows it to happen.[/quote]

I didn't actually mean cheating. I think that even having friends who buff you for free is not different in principle from trading prestige - the only difference really is that prestige cannot happen within guild - but it's still the same principle, one person doing a favor to another person. This happens in the game in many forms... having a highlevel friend who will clear your bounties quickly is nothing else in principle, too.

[quote]Again, the subject of this thread pertains to the fact that trading should not be allowed.[/quote]

It's still fighting a symptom, not a cause. If all attacks take XP, Prestige trading will be reduced back to 1% bonus for most people, but it will still remain. I quite liked the suggestion that pvp rating should be reset to 1000 only for those who pvp actively - because I don't have any desire to get hit for my pvp rating in the first place - and if somebody is willing to take it away without causing any damage, I would welcome it... so I would actually have a bio quite similar to what you brought up - with no intention to "trade prestige" at all, simply as a protection mechanism.

[quote]I think we can both agree that accomplishments, however small or large, need to be EARNED! What kind of message do we send the youth here playing this game, that the result always justify the means by which you achieve it? It's a bad message.
[/quote]

I don't really think that we should go into this discussion. If you want to worry about sending messages to youth, then the whole PvP is quite questinable as it sends the message that you don't have to earn by hard work, you can earn by robbing the weak ones ;) (yep, another cheap shot from me ;))

[quote]Where we do disagree is that you don't believe Prestige trading was stopped when taking xp occurred to gain Prestige. [/quote]

It was quite restricted, but far from stopped, and the restriction was in fact imbalanced, favoring the rich. And if we get 1 hour of developer time, I would prefer it to be applied to the root cause (changing the bonus) than to changing the xp loss mechanics (because odds are that if anything changes in PvP again, it would again need revisiting).

[quote]
PS Coyotic, while we may not agree with many things I do respect your well written replies. You make me think about things and for that I thank you. :)[/quote]

Since you stopped accusing me of being on anti-pvp crusade and promoting selfish interests, I've gotten to respect your replies too, even if I disagree with them.
So, merry Christmas or whatever applicable - and let's hope that the devs come with something that will sort this issue out.

#78 sweetlou

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 19:23

Now, players lose absolutely nothing when attacked from outside their +/- 10 range. In fact many simply trade Prestige hits(THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD!).


Yes, I agree that the situation has been made worse, no doubt about it.

There you go. I'm not concerned about players who might have been trading for 1% of Prestige for 60 minutes if payment or an arrangement was made because the attacker lost 1% xp from a 10 stam love tap. I'm bothered that now players are receiving 10% Prestige bonus for hours because they can hit anyone outside their +/- 10 level range but within their band basically bounty-free. Prestige has become a freely traded commodity that is unearned! The player who is attacked must lose something more then rating. ALL attacks need to take xp, gold, and rating in order to earn Prestige. The BB is the exception for taking rating because of the band disparity.

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#79 DaleJunior

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 22:10

Yep, it's still in heavy use, that's for sure. Just yesterday I got a note from someone in my PvP band asking "Hey, BRO, is it okay if I attack you for pvp rating? I won't take any xp or gold from you". Of course I said I preferred that he didn't, but it was up to him, but of course I could not allow any "free" attacks, particularly when I have guildmates who are also trying to make the ladder. Something needs to be done about the trading definitely. I wonder how many people said "yes" to this same person.

Edit: I'm sorry, this thread was about prestige trading, but it's also applicable to PvP Rating points trading as well.

#80 sweetlou

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 02:58

Edit: I'm sorry, this thread was about prestige trading, but it's also applicable to PvP Rating points trading as well.

It does. No one trades xp or gold loss hits. Rating trading is what the original fixes to the ladder tried to prevent. Prestige had already been 'fixed' and even though the Ladder is vastly improved the exact same problems still exist. Risk is essential to PvP!

Hoof, why is risk being removed?

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