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How to make relics less over powered - ideas needed


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#41 sweetlou

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:11

Not sure if the poll is counting properly. I voted no and it shows me this:Posted Image

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#42 jinks

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:27

I dont have an issue with the relics being dropped from 10% max empowerment to 6%, thats still a good bonus, and worth empowering and trying to hold, but not so overpowered it makes the game a complete cake walk.

You could even reduce the max % bonus to 12%, not too overpowered.

Note: 5% on each relic and 10% total bonus would be fine as well.

I think you should still keep the inital empowering cost, adding an hourly cost to keep hold of it is also a good idea, if thats done however, I think the inital empower costs should be reduced slightly.

For bonuses this good, paying for them wouldnt be an issue.

You could even create a structure to allow empowerment that when a relic is empowered increases its cost per hour with a formula taking into account the level of empowerment and number of active players in the guild.

#43 Maehdros

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:33

Will we actually "see" the results of this vote? ;)

#44 fs_erinos

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:41

Edited out

#45 fs_coyotik

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:56

For the costs to empower, especially if they made the costs in relation to how many members benefit from relics, the relic bonus is justified.


"the cost justifies the benefit" and "not overpowered" are two totally different things.

We could debate whether the costs of empower justify the benefit in first place (20% to all stats is worth more than EW1500 pot).

But the strength of relic should be viewed by the eye of game balance - combat system in PvP and creep stats in PvE.

And in that regard, 20% is *hugely* overpowered.

#46 MaximusGR

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 14:15

And in that regard, 20% is *hugely* overpowered.


Compared to all the powerful potions/skills and the reduntantly linear creature stats, the relic bonus is actually dim in PvE and non existent in PvP..Lack of +20% stats does not hinder one's gameplay in any way, it just takes a bit more stam to achieve various goals.

If cows showed an even low level of imagination and originality in most of their ideas, we wouldnt be forced to limit our discussions to amounts of stats/skills etc..

#47 Animosity

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 14:23

I believe that, Yes, relics power needs to be decreased, but also I believe that HCS needs to create more Relics for the game. There are loads of guilds out there and each of them are capable of having 2 or more Relics at one time, so why not add more to the game. Lets say double the current amount of existing Relics. Toss in a few negative effects for those seeking to gain power from them all the time and things would be alot better in the game. The first person who commented there had a somewhat good idea, create day and night and seasons or weather when Relics have say 7% to 10% more power than Normal.

#48 fs_sexyman08

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 14:28



And in that regard, 20% is *hugely* overpowered.


Compared to all the powerful potions/skills and the reduntantly linear creature stats, the relic bonus is actually dim in PvE and non existent in PvP..Lack of +20% stats does not hinder one's gameplay in any way, it just takes a bit more stam to achieve various goals.

If cows showed an even low level of imagination and originality in most of their ideas, we wouldnt be forced to limit our discussions to amounts of stats/skills etc..


non existant in pvp?? i dont care if you use them to hunt thats whatever but they are just giving more profit to the high level guilds....more of there payers win the ladder which means more tokens for them and even less people wanting to play the ladder.

#49 Anemie

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 14:32

I believe that, Yes, relics power needs to be decreased, but also I believe that HCS needs to create more Relics for the game. There are loads of guilds out there and each of them are capable of having 2 or more Relics at one time, so why not add more to the game. Lets say double the current amount of existing Relics. Toss in a few negative effects for those seeking to gain power from them all the time and things would be alot better in the game. The first person who commented there had a somewhat good idea, create day and night and seasons or weather when Relics have say 7% to 10% more power than Normal.

Relics shouldn't be like "epics"- 1 for everyone,there are some guilds that can keep the relics and they deserve to have them.More relics would be bad for game-I mean what's the point of relics if there would be 1 for every guild...


And why are HCS even thinking about changing something about relics?-Nothing is broken about them -they should just concentrate on other aspects of the game and leave relics as they are...

#50 fs_coyotik

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 14:36



And in that regard, 20% is *hugely* overpowered.


Compared to all the powerful potions/skills and the reduntantly linear creature stats, the relic bonus is actually dim in PvE and non existent in PvP..


I think you're wrong. 20% to all stats is more than 10 FSP worth, it gives bigger boost than EW1500, currently for a fraction of the price (depending on how often you'd use it, how big your guild is and how infrequently you lose your empowered relics).

And anyway, the fact that there are other things breaking the game balance horribly (elemental epics, EW1500, helheart, acheron and probably truckloads of other epic or new legendary items), that's not an excuse to leave one more such thing in the game - especially since relics are the one thing that CAN be nerfed very easily without unleashing a storm of anger from those who paid lots for the gear/pots.

If 20% more stats don't matter in PvP, it's most likely because the combat system in PvP already favors the attacker sooo much...

#51 watagashi

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 14:42

The thing about relics isnt that they are overpowered its the whiners,,,those whos guild could not work together to take and hold a relic.
My guild holds 2 relics, this takes a large commitment not only in coordinating offline sets but moving back to it after every hunt. For something that takes this kind of commitment and teamwork it SHOULD be rewarded!
Then there is empowering, assuming you dont fail it still costs a fortune.
Relics should not be tweaked there should be more released with each content update and tweaked with those gains.

#52 Animosity

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 14:50

I believe that, Yes, relics power needs to be decreased, but also I believe that HCS needs to create more Relics for the game. There are loads of guilds out there and each of them are capable of having 2 or more Relics at one time, so why not add more to the game. Lets say double the current amount of existing Relics. Toss in a few negative effects for those seeking to gain power from them all the time and things would be alot better in the game. The first person who commented there had a somewhat good idea, create day and night and seasons or weather when Relics have say 7% to 10% more power than Normal.

Relics shouldn't be like "epics"- 1 for everyone,there are some guilds that can keep the relics and they deserve to have them.More relics would be bad for game-I mean what's the point of relics if there would be 1 for every guild...


And why are HCS even thinking about changing something about relics?-Nothing is broken about them -they should just concentrate on other aspects of the game and leave relics as they are...



I don't believe everyone needs a relic that would make having Relics pointless, but I do believe that for every 40 "Active" guilds there should exist 1 Relic, meaning that if a guild owned 2 or 3 they are still cutting many other guilds out of the benefits.

#53 MaximusGR

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 15:08

I think you're wrong. 20% to all stats is more than 10 FSP worth, it gives bigger boost than EW1500, currently for a fraction of the price (depending on how often you'd use it, how big your guild is and how infrequently you lose your empowered relics).

Consider the stamina to walk to and away from a relic for any game activity requiring walking in maps..Buffs cast on lead defender, suitable gear for the others, empowerment costs as you also mentioned ..the cost of using 20% relics is not as obvious as buying a pot and perhaps is lower than 10 FSP/hunt for most since its dostributed among many players in a guild, but there are some logistics concerned, its not for free at any case..

And anyway, the fact that there are other things breaking the game balance horribly (elemental epics, EW1500, helheart, acheron and probably truckloads of other epic or new legendary items), that's not an excuse to leave one more such thing in the game - especially since relics are the one thing that CAN be nerfed very easily without unleashing a storm of anger from those who paid lots for the gear/pots.


Yeap, thats the lack of imagination from the devs i was talking about..we ll either have overpowered gear or worthless gear..overpowerd pots or useless skills, super epics or obsolete epics, no PvP rewarding system or easily handed out tokens...

Its always a choice between something overpowering something to make it useful or nerfing something to keep it from "breaking the game".


If 20% more stats don't matter in PvP, it's most likely because the combat system in PvP already favors the attacker sooo much...


Yeap my point is that if one really knows his game relics are just a small help, they wont turn someone into a PvP god overnight..


what i am thinking about the whole thing is that 20% is fine as it is..What could change is assigning only 2 stat bonuses per relic rather than all of them and something much more challenging..fiddling with CREATURE STATS.

Of the 10 mobs in each content, have their stats varying..For example :

A creature with these :
Attack: 6850 - 6974
Defense: 2390 - 2528
Armor: 2529 - 2615
Damage: 5724 - 5812
HP: 17567 - 17861

is how all of the mobs are designed..How about have some with their peaking stat being attack, defense or armor? That would make relics vary in their usefulness and also bring more items in the picture, not only high att/dam legendaries..

#54 fs_coyotik

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 15:44

Consider the stamina ...


Don't need to tell me this :).

what i am thinking about the whole thing is that 20% is fine as it is..


I think it's yet another completely unnecessary gamebreaker, and one that's easy to get rid of, so it should be taken out and shot.

Of the 10 mobs in each content, have their stats varying..For example :

A creature with these :
Attack: 6850 - 6974
Defense: 2390 - 2528
Armor: 2529 - 2615
Damage: 5724 - 5812
HP: 17567 - 17861

is how all of the mobs are designed..How about have some with their peaking stat being attack, defense or armor? That would make relics vary in their usefulness and also bring more items in the picture, not only high att/dam legendaries..


Unfortunately not. Creep attack and damage are irrelevant (well, except for a comfort issue), armor and HP have more or less the same effect of needing more dmg, so what we have is basically two-stat creep - you need attack and damage only, and on the attack side there's a truckload of buffs to help you.

Yes, it would be very nice if defense of the creeps was frequently higher than what even unbuffed acheron set alone can handle - but changes to creeps are not likely to have any impact on relics, except for making any relics without damage/attack much less interesting for levellers.

IMO relics can be tweaked down drastically - and if they're also converted from fixed cost to hourly upkeep, making the guild suffer virtually no loss when they lose a relic, we'll see much more traffic on them.

#55 sweetlou

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 16:11

I remember being so happy with a 20% max instead of 60% one. How time can change player's minds. If it were 5% max it would still be way better than the way relic bonuses were treated before empowerment was allowed.

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#56 MaximusGR

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 16:22

I remember being so happy with a 20% max instead of 60% one. How time can change player's minds. If it were 5% max it would still be way better than the way relic bonuses were treated before empowerment was allowed.


I remember not liking the reduction to 20%..then went on for considerable time without any relics..was fine with it..now i simply like the 20% and think cows should try and come up with something better than increasing or decreasing numbers to make things more challenging in the game..

#57 fs_triamix

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 16:29

The issues around control of relics have been going on for a loooooong time I agree it needs to be fixed however i dont believe its an issue about the relics being overpowered. That question in itself detracts from the real issues surrounding the relic problem. The ideal scenario to open up the relics to all would be to have a set number of defenders per relic at that level and when taking relics creating specific groups for relic takes. groups formed from the relic screen this would only allow players within a +/- 25/50 level to join the group for the capture attempt. defenders should also be +/- 25/50 level range of the relic these stats can increase as the level of the relic increases. This will also stop high level defenders on low relics and a max number of defenders will increase the capture rate and give every guild in a relics range.

The idea about increasing the numbers of relics that can be taken is crazy that will be detrimental to the game as the relics will be totally controlled by guilds at high levels and not allowing other lower guilds the chance to benefit from the relics. I can appreciate the top ten guilds will say that the money has been spent so they should be able to take the relics they want. In reality this is a community based game and to keep the players in game you have to maintain their interest this will in itself encourage the higher guild to bring in and help the lower level players. The maximum relics taken should not increase that will increase the problems and end up in a reduction of players in game as they become discouraged and every player is potentially a donator to the game so keeping the relics they way they are is only hurting the pocket of hcs.

Are relics needed at the lower levels I will admit not really but its not up to the higher players to determine who owns what. I will admit i have sat on low relics before and frequently seen low players walking up to the relic is that fair not really.

Bottom line as far as this issue is concerned is to maintain the interest at the low levels keep the players and the game will become more interesting itself as it opens another avenue at all levels not just the low levels. Just as a level 1 can not sit on a level 1000 relic a level 1000 should not be able to sit on a level 1 relic.

A little controversial but a thought i had that might help and whether agreed with or beaten down I would like to hear what other people have to say about this. Thankyou

#58 MaximusGR

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 16:45

Unfortunately not. Creep attack and damage are irrelevant (well, except for a comfort issue), armor and HP have more or less the same effect of needing more dmg, so what we have is basically two-stat creep - you need attack and damage only, and on the attack side there's a truckload of buffs to help you.

Yes, it would be very nice if defense of the creeps was frequently higher than what even unbuffed acheron set alone can handle - but changes to creeps are not likely to have any impact on relics, except for making any relics without damage/attack much less interesting for levellers.

IMO relics can be tweaked down drastically - and if they're also converted from fixed cost to hourly upkeep, making the guild suffer virtually no loss when they lose a relic, we'll see much more traffic on them.


If creatures had the same range of stat variance players can achieve at any given level, leveling would be far less redundant..Damage would seize to be the all dominating factor and as more stats would come in play, more relics -and buffs- would be desirable to have at the same time..

So tweaking down, yes its an option to address one aspect of the game's dumbing down..there are far worse issues out there though that are being overlooked..

edit : Hopefully with FI nerfed EW 1500 will be effectively out of reach for most to make things more balanced in the potion aspect..

#59 fs_chezo

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 16:48

I suggested long ago that Relics should either have cycles, where their bonuses waxed and wained, or be affected by weather events. Different relics would be at their peak in different weather, if that was how it went, or at different "Phases of the moon" or "Position of Mars."

The idea of someone postponing a hunt to wait for a storm to clear, or the moon to rise, just amuses me I guess. :)


Love this idea, very imaginative and orginal idea LawDog26!
I Especially like (The idea of someone postponing a hunt to wait for a storm to clear)

The better bonus relics could have bad weather more often then the lesser helpful relics!
For instance the Despair Crystal being in the realm (Depths of Despair)having the most helpful bonus's would have the worst weather reducing the bonus's given more often then not. Not just a storm, but say thick fog, volcanoes erupting etc.

#60 lordthade

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 17:02

I think Tagtop's on the right path:

Fix a cost to choose to empower (we can even scale the cost to the level of empowerment):

Level 1-- normal, nothing.
Level 2-- 200,000 gold.
Level 3-- 600,000 gold.
etc.

Depending on the number of "levels" (could be tied to percentages or whatever is decided-- I personally think 5% is more than adequate) the cost to empower should go up.

One click though. Just choose.

Once THERE, then there's a cost per hour relative to the number of people in the guild. If you have 50 in the guild, the cost of a 5% upgrade in stats is 25,000 per hour or so. 5,000 per hour for a gross stat bonus seems fair even at 1% it's high, but not prohibitive.

Lose the relic... start over when you get it back.

The relic has a countdown, however, and at 1 week you lose empowerment and have to start over. Again, expensive, but not prohibitive and players might actually have to consider the lifespan of the relic to plan hunts and such.


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