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Scavenging Drop Rate Increase and Find Item


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#281 fs_cobra7781

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 18:15

Guess Drop rate should be fixed depends on creature spawn rate ...
Higher spawn rate get low drop rate and lower spawn rate get high drop rate


That's why I suggested that some Elites might become instant respawn, too :).

But it should be IMO done on individual basis - HCS should really decide how many items from a particular creep THEY want into the game.


You must be kidding, they barely have time or inclination to ensure the new sets they introduce are good for the game (ie don't break previous sets which have only recently introduced etc.. etc..)
Let alone tweaking the drop rates for each mob based on the need for the item in the game.

Christ, anyone every heard of KISS? keep it simple stupid!!!

They should have just reduced the drop rates on the items which were too common, or increased the need for the drops (ie inventable sets could have used more SE components if they were deemed to be flooding the market) Or we could have had more inventablel sets like Brides which used up surplus items.

So many things have been not 100% correct (or accurate in their description) ever since i started playing this game and were never changed.

I wonder what the true motivation for the change was:

Maybe: Increase the cost of supply ---> Increase the cost of the goods ------> Whats next?? more donations.

win moo win

but no, we need to change everything all the time, stimulate


+1 which is why me and loads of other players i know in the game have said they wont be donating anytime soon if they decide to do it again i would rather sit with zero fsp now than donate to this game now u cant get a win in the arena now unless u donate and am sure your inventing success will go up also but hey whatever to get the cows more donations well guys guess what i wont be after all its a free game (HA HA) and many others i have spoken to feel the same so i think u should maybe start a thread asking players and actually listen to them for once about what they would like in the game what changes they would like after all we pay the wages end of rant posted on 21st of feb incase account gets deleted.

#282 RJEM

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 23:04

I justed wanted to share what I have learned from the tens of people who have sent me data from their scavenging efforts since the changes were brought into effect. I think the Auction House itself tells the real story just as well as these numbers do (EW1500 for 13-14 FSP), but rather than small samples I've brought things together into one big sample consisting of over 700 million gold across the 2 caves.

Drop Rates for Important Scavenging Potions

EW1500: 1.33% base rate
EA200: 1.9% base rate
UB190: 2.5% base rate
Doubler750: 5% base rate

I hope HCS hasn't abandoned this thread in favour of their new interface and GvG improvements, as they still have some important decisions to make regarding common and elite drops in particular (and potentially Super Elite as well).

#283 KingHomer

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 07:36

Today I spent 3000 stam hunting the Seal of Fire for its item drops. I used FI1000 with reckoning. NOT A SINGLE DROP.

Dear Cows - please change this ridiculous FI glitch, either by changing the potion name to 'Fooled You', or adding a potion called 'Promise you'll Find Item'.


More information needed - 3000 stamina sounds like a lot, but if you were hitting with Doubler x 25 active and walking a lot between hits then it really isn't.

The drop rate should have been about 8% - so if you killed more than 30 of the Seals - and it looks like you killed a lot more - I would say there is an issue if you got no drop. I'm going to assume that you did (and that the problem is real).

However, the problem here doesn't sound like a Find Item issue - for a legendary mob to have an overall drop rate of 8% is pretty good - so as long as things are actually working nothing should need changing.

The Seal of Fire has a total drop rate of 2.01% (3 items - 0.67% each). It's not an instant spawn, so before I figured out the spawn rate... I could technically do an entire lap of the realm and not find it.

I just killed the Seal 33 times with only 4 buffs active (FI 1050, LF 630, Reckon 175, and SSI 150). Reckon hit FI 8 times.

Since the expected # of drops per kill is .0201 with no FI and using FI 1050 should yield .041205 drops per kill and Reckon+FI 1050 should yield .062310 drops per kill... my expected number of drops was 1.529.

My % chance to yield numbers of drops (RJEM check my math!):

0: 20.9%
1: 33.5%
2: 26.1%
3: 13.1%
4: 4.8%
5+: 1.7%

So the events that transpired for me tonight have a roughly 1 in 5 chance of happening.

I used about 3K stam for 33 kills, but with LF 630 factored in, that adjusts to around 3900 stam for 33 kills with LF 175.

Assuming Dulcharn used 3K stam at a rate similar to mine adjusted for LF 175 (I assume he knows the spawn rate since it's not instant for the Seal), he's probably got somewhere around 20-25 kills with a roughly 1/3 chance of getting no drops.

This is the third time I've hunted the Seal with FI 1K (let's assume no reckon hits since I didn't track it) and based on PM's sent to other players I've got another 25 kills those other two days.

I've got 58 kills with at least 8 reckon+FI's, while I have under a 7.5% chance of no drops, I've spent somewhere on the order of 7K stam, an LF 600 pot, a distil and three FI 1K's plus about 5 hours hunting the Seal. Not sure how I am supposed to think this is an intentional result of the FI correction, cause I would like to hear some of the players saying we shouldn't complain give away 3 days of stam, 40 fsp in pots and 5 hours and get nothing in return.

Since this is not a cave-based Legendary and you have to use stam (not gold) to find it, plus it can only be found a few hundred times per day (unlike cave-based LE's), it would be nice if the drop rate had been adjusted to reflect the correction in FI-effectiveness.

Anyway, I don't think expecting one drop for my efforts is wanting a WIN button. This was just no fun. Gonna clear out my inbox and reduce my FS-time for a while, got some hours of RL to make up.

#284 fs_coyotik

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:12

I wonder what the true motivation for the change was:

Maybe: Increase the cost of supply ---> Increase the cost of the goods ------> Whats next?? more donations.


I really doubt that. Hoof is very keen on fixing geniune mistakes in the code (as every good programmer should be) and I think that his only problem is that he doesn't really think or care about the consequences on the gameplay, certainly not on the level of "hmm, this fix could bring in more donations, so let's do it, and that other bug I won't fix as it would reduce our profits".

I'm all for putting together a list of drop rates that could or should be tweaked in order to increase playability.

But it should really come from "how much should the items be worth?". I mean, legendary runes of decay sell for less than their forge cost currently. Should the game work that way? Or should Legendary gear come up for prices like 50-60FSP apiece? (Current price of Xind Imperial stuff, for example).

I.e. the Seal of Fire in question seems to be quite powerful gear (level 1000, stat points like level 1485 common gear), so what would be the acceptable price be? And if we say that gear like this could and should be worth something like 200-300 FSP, or even more when it's still rare in the game, is the average cost of some 6k of stamina too much? That's 240 FSP worth even for powerlevellers. That is, if you wanted to get this set, you would have the option of a) selling buffs at stam-cost and buying it from somebody else B) going to hunt it yourself.

So, really, the arguments for any particular droprate should really come from what the desired/expected/acceptable price SHOULD be.

#285 RJEM

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:50

Today I spent 3000 stam hunting the Seal of Fire for its item drops. I used FI1000 with reckoning. NOT A SINGLE DROP.

Dear Cows - please change this ridiculous FI glitch, either by changing the potion name to 'Fooled You', or adding a potion called 'Promise you'll Find Item'.


More information needed - 3000 stamina sounds like a lot, but if you were hitting with Doubler x 25 active and walking a lot between hits then it really isn't.

The drop rate should have been about 8% - so if you killed more than 30 of the Seals - and it looks like you killed a lot more - I would say there is an issue if you got no drop. I'm going to assume that you did (and that the problem is real).

However, the problem here doesn't sound like a Find Item issue - for a legendary mob to have an overall drop rate of 8% is pretty good - so as long as things are actually working nothing should need changing.

The Seal of Fire has a total drop rate of 2.01% (3 items - 0.67% each). It's not an instant spawn, so before I figured out the spawn rate... I could technically do an entire lap of the realm and not find it.

I just killed the Seal 33 times with only 4 buffs active (FI 1050, LF 630, Reckon 175, and SSI 150). Reckon hit FI 8 times.

Since the expected # of drops per kill is .0201 with no FI and using FI 1050 should yield .041205 drops per kill and Reckon+FI 1050 should yield .062310 drops per kill... my expected number of drops was 1.529.

My % chance to yield numbers of drops (RJEM check my math!):

0: 20.9%
1: 33.5%
2: 26.1%
3: 13.1%
4: 4.8%
5+: 1.7%

So the events that transpired for me tonight have a roughly 1 in 5 chance of happening.

I used about 3K stam for 33 kills, but with LF 630 factored in, that adjusts to around 3900 stam for 33 kills with LF 175.

Assuming Dulcharn used 3K stam at a rate similar to mine adjusted for LF 175 (I assume he knows the spawn rate since it's not instant for the Seal), he's probably got somewhere around 20-25 kills with a roughly 1/3 chance of getting no drops.

This is the third time I've hunted the Seal with FI 1K (let's assume no reckon hits since I didn't track it) and based on PM's sent to other players I've got another 25 kills those other two days.

I've got 58 kills with at least 8 reckon+FI's, while I have under a 7.5% chance of no drops, I've spent somewhere on the order of 7K stam, an LF 600 pot, a distil and three FI 1K's plus about 5 hours hunting the Seal. Not sure how I am supposed to think this is an intentional result of the FI correction, cause I would like to hear some of the players saying we shouldn't complain give away 3 days of stam, 40 fsp in pots and 5 hours and get nothing in return.

Since this is not a cave-based Legendary and you have to use stam (not gold) to find it, plus it can only be found a few hundred times per day (unlike cave-based LE's), it would be nice if the drop rate had been adjusted to reflect the correction in FI-effectiveness.

Anyway, I don't think expecting one drop for my efforts is wanting a WIN button. This was just no fun. Gonna clear out my inbox and reduce my FS-time for a while, got some hours of RL to make up.


Based on this information and comments to the effect that the drop rate was horrible even before the change, I have to conclude that you aren't all being really unlucky, and that there is something off with the drop rate in the guide.

Your maths looks fine to me - so I hope BigGrim can take a look at this for you.

#286 KingHomer

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 18:55

Thanks for looking at my math. Was kind of a big post, didn't want it based off wrong info.

#287 RJEM

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 20:02

Thanks for looking at my math. Was kind of a big post, didn't want it based off wrong info.


Not at all - all very relevant and I do think there is a problem with the drops seeing as *noone* I have spoken to has had a good experience to average out all of the bad ones people have reported.

BigGrim - could you check for these guys? Even at 6% drop rate it would be a super tough set to make, but it is extremely powerful to offset that. The extremely low results just make it undesirable to hunt :(

#288 fs_tangtop

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 20:31

Maybe someone at HCS could take hooftest out for a spin and hunt the seal of fire for a set to see what it is like. I hunted mine before the FI change, and it was bad enough then. I feel bad for those that have to hunt it now.

#289 fs_shadow9987

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 21:07

Maybe someone at HCS could take hooftest out for a spin and hunt the seal of fire for a set to see what it is like. I hunted mine before the FI change, and it was bad enough then. I feel bad for those that have to hunt it now.


This would be a great idea. According to the UFSG, pre FI tweak the drop rate for each item was 0.33%. To my understanding, FI was adding an additional 1000% to that drop rate, so a total chance to find an item of 3.66%. After the tweak, the drop rate was increased to 0.67%, so now with FI 1k it is a 1.34% chance. This doesn't account for reckoning though, it was much more powerful before the change. Factoring in reckoning the old drop rate could have been as high as 6.93% (.33 + .33*2000%) vs 1.67% (.67 + .67*200%).

Aside from my own interest in wanting to get a Fire Wreathed Set, this will have long standing consequences for new players. There are a number of elite and champion items that are used in all places in the game. I used to enjoy hunting for my own items as I reached new levels and while I was put off by some of the elites not having an instant respawn, it was worth doing because you were still able to receive drops. Now when you combine the ineffectiveness of FI with the non instant respawns of some creatures, it may dissuade new players from hunting them at all. I am not sure of how effective of a gold sink farming+forging gear was in the big picture, but it had to at least be helping to some extent.

#290 fs_tangtop

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 22:48

Maybe someone at HCS could take hooftest out for a spin and hunt the seal of fire for a set to see what it is like. I hunted mine before the FI change, and it was bad enough then. I feel bad for those that have to hunt it now.


This would be a great idea. According to the UFSG, pre FI tweak the drop rate for each item was 0.33%. To my understanding, FI was adding an additional 1000% to that drop rate, so a total chance to find an item of 3.66%. After the tweak, the drop rate was increased to 0.67%, so now with FI 1k it is a 1.34% chance. This doesn't account for reckoning though, it was much more powerful before the change. Factoring in reckoning the old drop rate could have been as high as 6.93% (.33 + .33*2000%) vs 1.67% (.67 + .67*200%).

Aside from my own interest in wanting to get a Fire Wreathed Set, this will have long standing consequences for new players. There are a number of elite and champion items that are used in all places in the game. I used to enjoy hunting for my own items as I reached new levels and while I was put off by some of the elites not having an instant respawn, it was worth doing because you were still able to receive drops. Now when you combine the ineffectiveness of FI with the non instant respawns of some creatures, it may dissuade new players from hunting them at all. I am not sure of how effective of a gold sink farming+forging gear was in the big picture, but it had to at least be helping to some extent.

Note that when I was farming this set, the UFSG had the drop percentage at 0.17% for each piece.

#291 fs_shadow9987

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 23:16

Note that when I was farming this set, the UFSG had the drop percentage at 0.17% for each piece.

Then I suppose it used to have a chance of 1.87%/3.57% vs 1.34%/1.67%. Still an annoyance considering the stamina spent finding it, but not as bad as I thought. The point on other elite/champion items still seems valid.

#292 fs_coyotik

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 13:04


Note that when I was farming this set, the UFSG had the drop percentage at 0.17% for each piece.

Then I suppose it used to have a chance of 1.87%/3.57% vs 1.34%/1.67%. Still an annoyance considering the stamina spent finding it, but not as bad as I thought. The point on other elite/champion items still seems valid.


An annoyance, maybe. But look at the stats the gear gives. It's in the same league as other recent legendary additions, it's gear that will most likely last for hundreds of levels. If it is not obsoleted by another legendary, the next chance to replace it would be elite sets some 400 levels later.

Agree that other Elite/Champion stuff could and should have somewhat better droprates. Most of Elite gear is only good (theoretically) for some 40-60 levels, so no need for it to be rare.

#293 Thiudimir

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 18:32

Am I right in assuming that the release of LEs in the caves that Forn promised last week isn't happening?

#294 Lekoaf

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 20:10

Am I right in assuming that the release of LEs in the caves that Forn promised last week isn't happening?


Would like to know this as well.
Hoarded as much gold as I could in the past two weeks due to this promise.

#295 Scoops1972

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 21:00

Maybe someone at HCS could take hooftest out for a spin and hunt the seal of fire for a set to see what it is like. I hunted mine before the FI change, and it was bad enough then. I feel bad for those that have to hunt it now.


90 kills for me using FI1000 with 1 Armor and 2 Weapons being dropped, now that for such a good a LE set sounds ok I guess, BUT the drop rate given for all 3 items is identical, yet people seem to struggle to get the Helmet drop!? Maybe just unlucky? (and btw I never realised it wasn't instant respawn, I don't ever remember having to do more than 1 circuit of the map??? :shock: )

#296 fusionj

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 21:09

Am I right in assuming that the release of LEs in the caves that Forn promised last week isn't happening?


Would like to know this as well.
Hoarded as much gold as I could in the past two weeks due to this promise.


EOCers will be out in droves to complain about an LE and new content in the same weekend...

#297 Lekoaf

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 21:59

Am I right in assuming that the release of LEs in the caves that Forn promised last week isn't happening?


Would like to know this as well.
Hoarded as much gold as I could in the past two weeks due to this promise.


EOCers will be out in droves to complain about an LE and new content in the same weekend...


Why? They can use the gold they got from lvling and spend it in the caves.

#298 Dulcharn

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 00:01

Maybe someone at HCS could take hooftest out for a spin and hunt the seal of fire for a set to see what it is like. I hunted mine before the FI change, and it was bad enough then. I feel bad for those that have to hunt it now.


I've been searching for a drop from the Seal of Fire using exclusively FI1k and Reckoning. I'm not using LF at all just to make sure I get a drop.
I've been seriously demoralized by the stamina lost running around without the creature dropping. I've now started to take screenshots of all the times that Reck kicks in on the FI pot to no avail.

I had a friend help me out with the flail and had the armor drop yesterday. I still need the helmet.

This FI conundrum needs to be fixed. I'm pulling my hair out and I'm slowly losing my marbles.

#299 dowuones

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:15

i made 452 kills today to get a "Common" drop i didnt get in last hunt (so make it about 600/650 kills). With FI 1050. Annoying. :(
Please change back FI, and lower drop rate of the few items that needed it.

#300 fusionj

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 04:15

Why? They can use the gold they got from lvling and spend it in the caves.


I get the feeling this won't be a caves-type LE event.


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