Scavenging Drop Rate Increase and Find Item
#101
Posted 14 February 2011 - 21:36
Common Items:
FI was working fine i think. if you wanted to get drops you just had to use a high FI and here the drops.
I usually hunted with a high FI, mainly just for the fun of collecting new items (that i usually destroy, since i check in advance if theres something i will decide to keep).
They are Common itens, so no hurt for the game if drops are common.
Also please consider under level 50 player (or at least under 20): getting a new drop gives fun, you are new to the game, you are wearing a level 6 Armor and "hey, i got a level 9 Armor, great!". No matter if the drop is better or worse, you have just started to play and you are happy to have a new item, so a low drop rate is not good in this case. (also they probably use a level 100/125 buff, if it has no effect its not good)
Super Elite Items
I think everyone agree that drop rate was too high, so a 50% reduction in drop rate seems good (it will help used items to keep their value, for items that are not used honestly any drop rate wont change the fact they are useless).
Elite Items
Lets be honest, value of those items is not related to their drop rate, but to the fact that most of Elite sets have a very limited use (that decreases more and more with all the new 2 items sets that are released). So lowering their drop rate, will have the only effect of less players hunting them). I dont see a problem of AH flooded by those items (actually many of them are already rare, simply cause they are not used and so are not hunted).
I tried a couple of times to farm a set (and often i destroyed it soon after, just for fun of doing it.
If i have to kill and Elite 10 times for a set is fine, if i have to do it 30/40/50 times i wont even consider it and move on.
Scavenging
I thought drop rates in caves were fine, i see many want to see a lower drop rate, fine, ive no problem with it. I hunt every 10 days, so i dont care of an increase in potions prices, if its reasonable. If its too high simply i wont use them. I wont be happy, but its something i can live with.
Honestly for Legendary i think drop rate was actually fine (but again i dont care).
The only problem i see in too low drop rate is that if i decide to scavenge, i will drop 20/30 millions in cave each time. Last time i tried i had a big loos, who cares, next time drop 30 more millions and gain something.
But we cant forget that not everyone in the game is a level 500+ fully upgraded who can drop millions in caves without thinking of the losses.
For a level 100 player, 1 million in caves is a huge amount of gold. If he tries with a too low drop rate and lose everything, the first time maybe he wont care, second time he wont be so happy, the third time he will discover that hes not having fun. So a low drop rate is good, a too low drop rate will only allow less players trying to scavenge.
Legendaries in world map
Again low drop rate is good, will prevent items to flood AH and will allow more events.
Wheres the limit of low drop rate? The limit is again the fun factor for players with limited resources. If you have 1,000 max stam, and decide to use it all in the event and you get nothing, you simply wont have fun. So drop rate should consider this. Item rarity is importan, but having fun playing a game is much more important. If you have 10k max stam, sooner or later you will get something, with 1k max stam if you get mothing is a problem.
So, in the end:
I liked much more FI working as before (FI, even a buff, not necessarily a potion will give you a big boost), with this changes:
- Common items: let them be, they were fine;
- Super Elite items: nerf drop rate by 50%;
- Scavenging: adjust drop rate to what you consider fine (remember not too much, cause its not just a question of price, but you need to consider player partecipation in scavenging;
- Elite: i dont see a good reason for a change, they are mainly hunted for quests (and drop rate is not important) or fun (if drop rate becomes too low, no one will hunt them)
- Legendaries in world map: keep drop rates very low, but allow ALL players to have fun with them, not just big players.
It would be a less drastic change in the game we have played for years (skill broken or not), but it would correct the situation where is needed.
#102
Posted 14 February 2011 - 21:46
other logic thing to have done with the spine event would obviously have been to put ALL crysts back in arena.... nuff said.
#103
Posted 14 February 2011 - 21:51
dowumines makes good points.
other logic thing to have done with the spine event would obviously have been to put ALL crysts back in arena.... nuff said.
*Not* the arena!
How would that be a fun event for the whole of Fallen Sword? They should all have been released on the map so that drops of all kinds were available with a suitably low drop rate. Then players rather than merchants would have been able to enjoy the event.
#104
fs_coyotik
Posted 14 February 2011 - 21:52
Hunting is a very non challenging thing once you have established your approach - whether it is a 2hit defense set or a buff powered suicide 1 hit set up. It all comes down to pressing 12345678 in the end. However that does not make the potion "game breaking."
Actually it does.
There are several "late" features that together make the game broken and each of them, singled out, is unnecessarily powerful.
1) EW1500 (well, in fact even EW1000). These are the only "huge" pots to increase damage, way out of tune with the creep formula and item formulas, adding net 8 and 12% to total dmg, roughly. These were overpowered from the very start, the game would have been just fine with EW300 and 500 instead.
2) DD, 20% more dmg for nothing.
3) Relics, for bigger guilds, 10-20% dmg. It's not exactly cheap to get and keep, but in practice it turned out that the costs are nowhere near the benefits gained.
4) elemental weapons, hugely overpowered and certainly breaking the balance and obsoleting about 10% of total ingame gear just with 4 items.
5) later legendary sets, again done by some hugely overpowered formula. I don't know about PvP ones, but levelling ones (Acheron and Helheart) and also Xind Imperial beat common gear for several HUNDREDS of levels ahead. Helheart in particular is equivalent to level 1552 common gear, being itself level 890, Acheron 1492/850.
All these balance-breakers combined together managed to effectively flatten out any room for competition and skill in levelling, making hunting nonchallenging.
I just checked creeps 1000-1050. A huge whopping 4 of them cannot be done with pure 1hits with 10% relic WITHOUT EW1000/1500. Levelling is now absolutely and totally boring near EOC - and I am afraid that with the elemental epics and other overpowered gear, it's not any better in most level ranges throughout the game.
Dropping EW1500/1000 out of the game completely would be a very great change...
#105
Posted 14 February 2011 - 21:56
I dropped over 45 FSP, I got 1 EW, I got 1 FI 800, 2 EA's, and some plants which I'm gonna have to sell for gold. Over all I used Reckoning 175, QF 170, RF 175, and FI 1k so in short I went through a lot of dots and gold " again " lol and really was not worth the toss... I'm inclined to inform everyone that if the drop rate doesn't change it won't be in "ANYONE'S BEST INTEREST" to bother with the caves... =/
I dropped a lot of FSP throughout the weekend, as the drop was so disgustingly aweful I like many others either used my own octo shield or purchased one... I purchased it sadly. I also dropped about 50 dots over the weekend and another 50 dots today... I got a " LITTLE more today" but not enough too consider it worth it... I didn't break even and perhaps the point. However when I or anyone else puts in 50 dots... We'd like to see at least something for our money... If I had 2 ew's it wouldn't have been as bad but still taking a loss... So... in the end... I will strongly suggest that you tweak this again... I doubt that I'll rush into it as many I know haven't and understandably why...
Your losing our trust and at the rate of pace... You'll be losing our donations as well ... =/
Many of us here within the Fallen Sword community have asked you all to communicate with us in terms of making changes in game. We've suggested in game polls, or you all *HCS developers/ coders/ what ever* can always talk with us through the forums as well....
Also... Last but not least, I would like to say I think the idea of making SE hunting worth something once again is awesome... and I for one like it and approve it... However ... I have been looking at the drop rates on thoses SE's... and I for one, feel it should be slightly tweaked as well... We all want to make dots and see SE's actually worth something again... An I'm all for that... but when you set the drop rate for 1 drop for every 50 SE's killed ... Well I think that's just a tad too high... LOL and people will lose interest and lose it quickly... We all want the drops to make money and hold value but none of us wanna see them be impossible.
Considering most guilds and many of us already have such items, people are saying they like the idea and the drop rate shouldn't be adjusted. However ... As soon as we have a NEW SE where people wanna hunt it... You'll see people complaining and crying again cause 50 kills per 1 drop is really not a fair tweak... I think you all over at the Game development lab should take another look at that drop rate and tweak it just a little bit so that perhaps for every 15 or 20 SE's people see something... but as is... it's almost every 1 in 50 and most have been using the FI 1k buff which seems to be more like FI 175 <---- Just making suggestions and sharing my thoughts on all of this...
Chazz
#106
Posted 14 February 2011 - 22:02
Hunting is a very non challenging thing once you have established your approach - whether it is a 2hit defense set or a buff powered suicide 1 hit set up. It all comes down to pressing 12345678 in the end. However that does not make the potion "game breaking."
Actually it does.
There are several "late" features that together make the game broken and each of them, singled out, is unnecessarily powerful.
1) EW1500 (well, in fact even EW1000). These are the only "huge" pots to increase damage, way out of tune with the creep formula and item formulas, adding net 8 and 12% to total dmg, roughly. These were overpowered from the very start, the game would have been just fine with EW300 and 500 instead.
2) DD, 20% more dmg for nothing.
3) Relics, for bigger guilds, 10-20% dmg. It's not exactly cheap to get and keep, but in practice it turned out that the costs are nowhere near the benefits gained.
4) elemental weapons, hugely overpowered and certainly breaking the balance and obsoleting about 10% of total ingame gear just with 4 items.
5) later legendary sets, again done by some hugely overpowered formula. I don't know about PvP ones, but levelling ones (Acheron and Helheart) and also Xind Imperial beat common gear for several HUNDREDS of levels ahead. Helheart in particular is equivalent to level 1552 common gear, being itself level 890, Acheron 1492/850.
All these balance-breakers combined together managed to effectively flatten out any room for competition and skill in levelling, making hunting nonchallenging.
I just checked creeps 1000-1050. A huge whopping 4 of them cannot be done with pure 1hits with 10% relic WITHOUT EW1000/1500. Levelling is now absolutely and totally boring near EOC - and I am afraid that with the elemental epics and other overpowered gear, it's not any better in most level ranges throughout the game.
Dropping EW1500/1000 out of the game completely would be a very great change...
Not to be so much of a critque but ... at level 1k I think it's pretty funny how many of the higher level players are stating hunting is all so easy... Mean while I can't recall reading such comments when HCS was taking ideas of buffs and pots...? Funny it seems... I wonder... You high level players wouldn't want HCS to make the game a little harder just to increase your sales percentage on how much you can rip the lower level players off for on those over priced buffs most pay for, would it? Ummmm Just a thought...
An yes... buying buffs is optional, so is buying pots, so is hunting for that matter or even logging into this game... So please spare me on what's optional or not... LOL I've read enough of people stating " IF PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD IT THEY SHOULD JUST DO WITHOUT" <------ It's mind set's like that ... that cause the poor population in countries to revolt and cause uprisings that end up in either compromise or a government take over ... LOL ... People should consider people regardless of anyone financial status. " People need people" period... LOL the rich can't stay rich with out the consumers, and employees wouldn't have employment without employers lol ... Facts of life... =P
#107
Posted 14 February 2011 - 22:26
i got 8 ub190
11 fi800
2 ew1500
8 ea200
27 mill at 150k per fsp is 180 fsp as you can see def wont break even let alone profit this is the second run i have tried today
if all the ea200 had dropped as ew then i would be ok but the ratio seems way off as i had more ea200 the first test aswell
#108
Posted 14 February 2011 - 22:37
Why only scavenge had an increase on drop rate?
If FI was indeed wrong, why 4 years to correct it? Should all creatures drop rate be adjusted?
#109
fs_coyotik
Posted 14 February 2011 - 22:45
Not to be so much of a critque but ... at level 1k I think it's pretty funny how many of the higher level players are stating hunting is all so easy... Mean while I can't recall reading such comments when HCS was taking ideas of buffs and pots...? Funny it seems... I wonder... You high level players wouldn't want HCS to make the game a little harder just to increase your sales percentage on how much you can rip the lower level players off for on those over priced buffs most pay for, would it? Ummmm Just a thought...
I can't speak for others, but I don't really give a damn how easy or hard the game is for lower levels. Anyone who spends lots of time on the forum will know that my opinion about those gamebreaking items is consistent, I claimed from the very start that relics at 20% max were too strong, I asked for new buffs to be not tradable outside guild in order to reduce the pyramid effect of top levels making profit, I asked for the buffs to be released late, when more than a handful players have access to them (here it seems I got what I asked for...)
All I care about is that levelling will be challenging again, that players will be able to move up in their monthly ladder simply by playing the game well, by using their stamina effectively - NOT just by making FSP on the side or donating heavily in order to buy extra stamina.
With all those win buttons added to the game, levelling is now just a brainless activity, an endurance contest, nothing more. Look at the bloody acheron set alone. Just this set gives you 2700 attack without any effort.
A small breakdown of creeps 850-1066 (that's what we have in our guild database for now):
Total creeps: 225
Defense < 3200 (acheron + 700elemental + EW175 ): 147 creeps out of 225
Defense > 3200 and Defense < 5800 (+ KE175 + DC175): 54 creeps out of 225
Defense > 5800: 24 creeps out of 225.
This means that for a lousy 10.6% of creeps, you actually need to pull your head out of your butt and start worrying about having enough attack. This is quite sad and it shows how the gear and creeps are designed separately - and I dare say it deserves to be called broken.
(Yes, sure, for some creeps this setup would not provide enough damage, so helheart might come into play, breaking the attack down, but for many creeps it's not an issue. I just checked and acheron with side gear below level 900 gives about 22.5k dmg with BE350 being the only thing above 175, no relic bonus... and about half of creeps between 850 and 950 can be 1hit that way.)
LOL the rich can't stay rich with out the consumers, and employees wouldn't have employment without employers lol ... Facts of life... =P
Thanks for the lecture. Been there. Our guild has never been rich. We didn't have Steep Nojor when it was selling for close to 1000 FSP. And guess what? We survived just fine, without a revolt or a government takeover
#110
Posted 14 February 2011 - 23:29
ok ended up using 27 million gold
i got 8 ub190
11 fi800
2 ew1500
8 ea200
27 mill at 150k per fsp is 180 fsp as you can see def wont break even let alone profit this is the second run i have tried today
if all the ea200 had dropped as ew then i would be ok but the ratio seems way off as i had more ea200 the first test aswell
Ok, so using your results as a standard here - 27 million gold at 150k per FSP is ~180 FSP, as a reference value.
You got:
2 EW 1500 Potions
8 EA 200 Potions
11 FI 800 Potions
8 UB 190 Potions
Total Scavenges = 1350
Total Goatmen ~ 225 (Give or take 5)
Goatman Drop Rate ~4.4%
Based on the skew I'd estimate that the drop rate currently is around 1.5% for EA200 and 0.75% for EW 1500.
Now, scaling up some estimated previous selling prices in order to reach break even (180 total):
EW1500: 10 --> 35 FSP
EA 200: 1.5 --> 6 FSP
UB 190: 1.5 --> 6 FSP
FI 800: 0.1 --> 0.4 FSP
Bear in mind that a single extra EW1500 drop would drop the overall multiplier needed from 3.5 to 2.5.
I think this is good justification for a second 'doubling' of the drop rates in the cave. This will still leave prices higher than they were before the FI Fix, but not by all that much. It will also give Scavengers a chance to make a profit again.
I'm aware that they obviously aren't 'obliged' to make money off this, but in order for it to be a good gold sink there does need to be hope in there.
With a further doubling I would expect to see profitable scavenging if players are willing to buy potions at the prices below:
EW 1500: 15 FSP
UB 190: 2.5 FSP
EA 200: 2.5 FSP
FI 800: Around 30k Gold?
I would pay those prices, and on legendary weekends the price would go a little lower still.
Please, HCS, double me up one more time
#111
Posted 15 February 2011 - 00:31
When was it different? Only prior to the introduction of the 'game-breaking' updates like empowered relics and high level pots? The devs add new stuff to the game continually. This keeps players interested in playing. It gives players a reason to donate. There's a lot more to the game then a race to the EOC. It's not surprising that players who only see it as that find it brainless.With all those win buttons added to the game, levelling is now just a brainless activity, an endurance contest, nothing more.
[Signature removed]
“When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” -GRRM
#112
Posted 15 February 2011 - 00:32
Professional Arena Player when it comes to losing. Avid Titan Hunter. Sometimes I buy and sell stuff.
#113
Posted 15 February 2011 - 00:35
Right after LE event ends, thanks HCS, thanks a lot
They did that so there would be no difference between players who scavenged early in the weekend and those who joined later. One of their better weekend decisions recently.
Still looking for that final tweak though.
#114
Posted 15 February 2011 - 00:41
EW 1500: 15 FSP
UB 190: 2.5 FSP
EA 200: 2.5 FSP
FI 800: Around 30k Gold?
that is still to expensive for most players except the FI 800
#115
Posted 15 February 2011 - 00:59
i use QF and gatherer pot; my mortars and fungus rates looked a bit low, but close to average
i counted 90 trash items, bone shields,. sneek stuff.
3 EW, 3 EA, 5 UB 10 FI, and 7 SES,
seems to me the drop rate with FI 1050 as is changed now is anywhere between 20-30% depending on variance of what it used to be, in the caves.
i think RJEM is correct in saying at least a 2X multiplier is in order here. based on what i have seen on forum numbers, and my own throwing of gold into the well of unforgivingness.
would obviously still be a large increase in current prices to come on all potions based from scavenging, even after a 2X multiplier is added. and i am not sure why it really needs to be lower than it used to be, at least in the caves.
#116
Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:03
EW 1500: 15 FSP
UB 190: 2.5 FSP
EA 200: 2.5 FSP
FI 800: Around 30k Gold?
that is still to expensive for most players except the FI 800
Really? I have 9.3k max stamina and make enough on a hunt to cover the cost of the EW1500 and UB190 above. EA200 is a real luxury item.
I think those prices would be absolutely fine long term - fewer people using UB200 is a good thing. Maybe buff a couple of hundred stamina per session? There are loads of ways 15 FSP could be affordable for players - it's the fixation on 'earning' through hunting that is affecting the arguments here.
My belief is that the *best* potions in the game should not really be paid for through routine levelling - you should have to up your stamina or do something outside of the grind to pay for them as a matter of course. Not everyone will agree with that, but I think the game would be better for it.
For the record, this second 2x Increase would put the multiplier with FI 1000 active at a total of 8 times the old base rate, compared to 11 times with the old FI 1000 activation. We'd be looking at prices 37.5% higher than before based on pure multiplication - so about 14 FSP for EW 1500 etc.
#118
Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:13
#119
Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:25
Multiple Scavenging Results (02:01:18 15/Feb/2011)
You were victorious over Cave Troll. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Zombie. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Cave Troll. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Cave Goatman. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Goblin Spearman. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Vampire. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Cave Troll. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Cave Troll. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Zombie. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Zombie. (No item drop)
Multiple Scavenging Results (02:02:27 15/Feb/2011)
You were victorious over Cave Goatman. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Vampire. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Cave Troll. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Vampire. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Vampire. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Goblin Spearman. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Zombie. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Vampire. (Item Gained: Infernus Boots)
You were victorious over Goblin Spearman. (No item drop)
You were victorious over Cave Grofflesnout. (No item drop)
This is a coment of another guild mate I warn him but I was 2 late.
03:16 15/Feb/2011 xxxxx WTFFFFFFFFF HOW DID I GET NO DROPS LOL I JUST WASTED 40 FSP ><"
Have fun on caves!!!!!!!!!
#120
Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:36
With all those win buttons added to the game, leveling is now just a brainless activity, an endurance contest, nothing more.
Brainless leveling ? So using more stam on leveling mean its not brainless ??
With all guides and help everywhere for leveling every players will use best way for leveling...
Stam usage will be same for all players if they using guides and got the gold for some pots like wither,EW1000...etc
unless some players cant afford buying EW1000 and some players can... This Is NOT challenge !
BUFFS will do ur leveling ... So theres no skill or challenge for leveling...
I don't understand how its annoying for u to kill for 1 hit this creatures ... Even imagine they made this creatures stronger which u cant do 1 hit kill and its need 2 hits Well everyone will meet this creature and spend more stam on it !
Its Contest for you? when the winner just can buy stam and power level even with 2 hits creatures and get 1st...
Maybe i dont know what you mean for leveling is now just a brainless activity... So explain how it is plz
:roll:
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