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Scavenging Drop Rate Increase and Find Item


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#121 mikkyld

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:54

Just stop tweaking, leave the FI drop rate.

I dont see problem here. If u need to enter in caves and spend 20 fsp to get one EW potion, than the price of potion will be 20 or more. People who hunt with this potion will still use it or will use lower. Economy will be stable. It should be rare potion and it should be expensive.


also not quite true in reference to the economy. Using lower level potion makes the price of that item go up and the fact that a scavenging drop rate reduction leads to fewer people doing scavenging leads to higher marketplace prices.

It may not be a huge problem - people will handle it one way or the other for sure - but it definitely does not keep a stable economy


It's not fewer people doing the scavenging that will bring prices up, just the reduced droprate. And won't stop the economy going stable again, once everything has settled down.

Increasing the droprate to somewhat under the rates as they used to be isn't going to hurt the whole community that much.



Both things are tied together - lower drop rate in caves means fewer scavengers which in turn means fewer people buying gold in the MP which of course each fsp cost more gold. Without any scavenging and with reduced drop rates across the game, the MP price will simply grow.

Oh and if you misinterpreted my position on this, I think the rate should be at least moved back toward where it was, if not outright restored

#122 mikkyld

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:07

Hunting is a very non challenging thing once you have established your approach - whether it is a 2hit defense set or a buff powered suicide 1 hit set up. It all comes down to pressing 12345678 in the end. However that does not make the potion "game breaking."


Actually it does.
There are several "late" features that together make the game broken and each of them, singled out, is unnecessarily powerful.

1) EW1500 (well, in fact even EW1000). These are the only "huge" pots to increase damage, way out of tune with the creep formula and item formulas, adding net 8 and 12% to total dmg, roughly. These were overpowered from the very start, the game would have been just fine with EW300 and 500 instead.

2) DD, 20% more dmg for nothing.

3) Relics, for bigger guilds, 10-20% dmg. It's not exactly cheap to get and keep, but in practice it turned out that the costs are nowhere near the benefits gained.

4) elemental weapons, hugely overpowered and certainly breaking the balance and obsoleting about 10% of total ingame gear just with 4 items.

5) later legendary sets, again done by some hugely overpowered formula. I don't know about PvP ones, but levelling ones (Acheron and Helheart) and also Xind Imperial beat common gear for several HUNDREDS of levels ahead. Helheart in particular is equivalent to level 1552 common gear, being itself level 890, Acheron 1492/850.

All these balance-breakers combined together managed to effectively flatten out any room for competition and skill in levelling, making hunting nonchallenging.

I just checked creeps 1000-1050. A huge whopping 4 of them cannot be done with pure 1hits with 10% relic WITHOUT EW1000/1500. Levelling is now absolutely and totally boring near EOC - and I am afraid that with the elemental epics and other overpowered gear, it's not any better in most level ranges throughout the game.

Dropping EW1500/1000 out of the game completely would be a very great change...


Semantics is involved here I imagine, but "makes easier" and "broken" are not the same thing to me. Broken is a true win button; easier isn't as dramatic.

There never was any competition in leveling really - except against the designers I suppose.

I will not dispute you on things gaining more power over time but note that part of the reason for that is a declining player pool - new things with exciting numbers gather interest and keep more players from leaving. Part of that has always happened since the game's start but perhaps it is more dramatic now.

I do know that if keeping people playing is HCS goal, reducing the drop rates is going an opposite direction in my view.

#123 fs_littledog9

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:42

alright. so it seems that we still need an another tweak on the scavenging drops. one more multiplier should bring the market back up to entertaining the interests of players still interested in upgrading.

to that one guy that "wants a challenge": leave your guild with empowered relics and go solo. :P

#124 hades8840

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:12

ok ended up using 27 million gold
i got 8 ub190
11 fi800
2 ew1500
8 ea200

27 mill at 150k per fsp is 180 fsp as you can see def wont break even let alone profit this is the second run i have tried today

if all the ea200 had dropped as ew then i would be ok but the ratio seems way off as i had more ea200 the first test aswell


Ok, so using your results as a standard here - 27 million gold at 150k per FSP is ~180 FSP, as a reference value.

You got:

2 EW 1500 Potions
8 EA 200 Potions
11 FI 800 Potions
8 UB 190 Potions

Total Scavenges = 1350
Total Goatmen ~ 225 (Give or take 5)
Goatman Drop Rate ~4.4%

Based on the skew I'd estimate that the drop rate currently is around 1.5% for EA200 and 0.75% for EW 1500.

Now, scaling up some estimated previous selling prices in order to reach break even (180 total):

EW1500: 10 --> 35 FSP
EA 200: 1.5 --> 6 FSP
UB 190: 1.5 --> 6 FSP
FI 800: 0.1 --> 0.4 FSP

Bear in mind that a single extra EW1500 drop would drop the overall multiplier needed from 3.5 to 2.5.

I think this is good justification for a second 'doubling' of the drop rates in the cave. This will still leave prices higher than they were before the FI Fix, but not by all that much. It will also give Scavengers a chance to make a profit again.

I'm aware that they obviously aren't 'obliged' to make money off this, but in order for it to be a good gold sink there does need to be hope in there.

With a further doubling I would expect to see profitable scavenging if players are willing to buy potions at the prices below:

EW 1500: 15 FSP
UB 190: 2.5 FSP
EA 200: 2.5 FSP
FI 800: Around 30k Gold?

I would pay those prices, and on legendary weekends the price would go a little lower still.

Please, HCS, double me up one more time :)


i forgot to mention if it changes things much i only had 3 buffs on me ub reck and fi 1k

#125 fs_coyotik

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:39

With all those win buttons added to the game, levelling is now just a brainless activity, an endurance contest, nothing more.

When was it different? Only prior to the introduction of the 'game-breaking' updates like empowered relics and high level pots?


Yes. The first step in wrong direction was introduction of EW1000, but the real problems started with the elemental epic weapons, empowered settings and introduction of acheron and similar overpowered stuff. That's when any interesting choices were phased out from levelling, when it stopped being a question of "which CA level to use" and "when to take quest rewards" and became a simple tedium.

The devs add new stuff to the game continually.


Nothing wrong with new stuff getting added. It's just the actual numbers on the stuff. Instead of adding stuff that is roughly in tune with the creeps and just filling the gaps (i.e. sphynx helmet was good for 232 levels!), they plonk overpowered epics here and there, effectively zapping whole parts of the game.

I don't mind some items occasionally getting obsoleted by better ones, if the difference isn't major, but with a single update of 4 items, they zapped 10% of gear in the game - AND at the same time killed any remaining challenge on some 30% of creeps (roughly). That is very bad design.

This keeps players interested in playing. It gives players a reason to donate.


Interesting how many people were upset and swore not to donate again when their expensive inferno hammers and other stuff got instantly turned into epic elemental scrap metal ;).

There's a lot more to the game then a race to the EOC. It's not surprising that players who only see it as that find it brainless.


Yea, you keep playing the same old record, there's more to the game. Sure there is, but that is not a reason to make one of the key parts of the game boring. For those who LIKE to race to the EOC, the game lost most of its appeal in the last year or so.

#126 fs_coyotik

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:47

Semantics is involved here I imagine, but "makes easier" and "broken" are not the same thing to me. Broken is a true win button; easier isn't as dramatic.


Sure they're not the same thing. But if all creeps are easy 1hits, what is the monthly top ladder good for? Just to see who can donate more $ to invest in stamgain gear, buy stamina, farm/brew or do any other activity to earn more FSP and not go to any long vacations. It robs the game of any possibility of just playing better.

There never was any competition in leveling really - except against the designers I suppose.


Oh yes, there was. I used to slowly gain on the top players ladder against other active players by levelling more effectively than they did, back in the days when 2hitting was frequent. Good timing of quest rewards, not doing quests that wasted more stam than they gave XP, good knowledge of the combat mechanics and calculations of buff effects helped to gain XP faster than others - and it was quite fun and rewarding. Last 200 levels, there are almost no opportunities to gain, due to mismatch between available gear/buffs and the formula used to create creeps.

#127 BigGrim

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:02

Hmmm. Drop rate is correct but the Slave Amulet was a standard rare item with no stats. It should have been (and now it is) a Quest Item.


They've been changed back. The reason they were rares instead of Quest items was because you had to wear them!

Just stop tweaking, leave the FI drop rate.


We're not touching the Find Item buff here. We're tweaking Scavenging Cave Drop Rates.

They should all have been released on the map so that drops of all kinds were available with a suitably low drop rate. Then players rather than merchants would have been able to enjoy the event.


And now that they are needed, we can release them into the wilds in the future. We now effectively have two cycle-able LEs with Chompers.

Why only scavenge had an increase on drop rate?


Only Scavenging requires tweaking because even if you throw gold at the caves, you are not guaranteed anything back. However there has to be a decent chance to get something otherwise, who'd bother?

#128 RJEM

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:10

Only Scavenging requires tweaking because even if you throw gold at the caves, you are not guaranteed anything back. However there has to be a decent chance to get something otherwise, who'd bother?


I think that says everything :)

Please see Hades' example earlier in the thread for some concrete numbers (and 1542RD's test too). I think their experience is pretty typical right now - in order to get scavenging as a valid gold sink a further tweak is probably in order.

The numbers and analysis are available in the thread - so I guess it's an HCS call on this now.

#129 fs_sirnickers

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:13

In my opinion, the scavenging drop rate should increase, similar to how it was before.

reasons:
1. Offer and demand. Less people will use the potions and the extra gold spent by the scavengers won't make up for the broken gold sink. MP will go up.
2. The higher the prices for expendable items like potions, the fewer people will use them, making this more of an elitist game. For one proper hunt a player shouldn't spend 25 fsp (5$). Ok, you don't necessarely need EW1.5k, but the alternatives slow down leveling (CA/def setup), increasing the elitist gap.
3. This elitist gap won't attract new players either. An average new player is scared off by the investment he has to make to get things going properly, keeping FS a game for the same old few.

So I say, let the prices of the scavenger potions drop, so people with 5k stam or less can enjoy them without having to pay with a kidney

#130 iut044

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:19

In my opinion, the scavenging drop rate should increase, similar to how it was before.

reasons:
1. Offer and demand. Less people will use the potions and the extra gold spent by the scavengers won't make up for the broken gold sink. MP will go up.
2. The higher the prices for expendable items like potions, the fewer people will use them, making this more of an elitist game. For one proper hunt a player shouldn't spend 25 fsp (5$). Ok, you don't necessarely need EW1.5k, but the alternatives slow down leveling (CA/def setup), increasing the elitist gap.
3. This elitist gap won't attract new players either. An average new player is scared off by the investment he has to make to get things going properly, keeping FS a game for the same old few.

So I say, let the prices of the scavenger potions drop, so people with 5k stam or less can enjoy them without having to pay with a kidney


It will also lead to higher prices for fsp on the marketplace .

#131 hades8840

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:23

Only Scavenging requires tweaking because even if you throw gold at the caves, you are not guaranteed anything back. However there has to be a decent chance to get something otherwise, who'd bother?


I think that says everything :)

Please see Hades' example earlier in the thread for some concrete numbers (and 1542RD's test too). I think their experience is pretty typical right now - in order to get scavenging as a valid gold sink a further tweak is probably in order.

The numbers and analysis are available in the thread - so I guess it's an HCS call on this now.


i am one of the hard core of the scavenging world i spent a total of 487 million gold or 3246 fsp in the caves over the weekend and yesterday if the caves stay as they are sadly i wont be doing it again not a idle threat just common sense i play the caves with the hope to make a profit ..a slim hope you can live with after all its a gamble but no chance you cant common sense kicks in

#132 dowuones

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:31

Only Scavenging requires tweaking because even if you throw gold at the caves, you are not guaranteed anything back. However there has to be a decent chance to get something otherwise, who'd bother?


Why only scaveging BG? Would you farm an Elite set if you have to kiil an Elite 30/40 times?
(p.s. if you never tried, the answer is: no :wink: )

#133 laserlars

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:31

About find item, SE's and the arena.

There will quite soon be a major block to the arena flow.
Take for example the machtelds set. Chance of succes is ~50% so in total ~12 destroyer pieces are needed to make the set. Current droprate is 0.38% -> ~1% with fi1k+reckoning and se-slayer. So you need to kill 1200 malphas to get the destroyer pieces.
I dont know the exact spawn rate but lets put it high and say 24 per day.
Then it will take all the malpha drops from 50days to make the machtelds set.

In the mean time (50 days) only 12 battle scrolls and 12 honored artifact can be used!!!

This is perhaps the worst example, but the rest are no good either. The merchants who currently have bought out most of the SE items will make a profit, but the arena champions and the SE-hunters (need 100kills to make a drop) will not.

#134 RJEM

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:37

There is always the option of the tiered drop system across FS ;)

I'm quite worried by the inventing-SE tie in actually. This might have been great when drops were plentiful, but now I'm not so sure.

#135 BigGrim

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:39

Why only scaveging BG? Would you farm an Elite set if you have to kiil an Elite 30/40 times?
(p.s. if you never tried, the answer is: no :wink: )


Because Scavenging is supposed to be a gold sink.

I have doubled the drop rate on the super low drops. I have not tweaked those with super high like the stone troll or those in a somewhat midlevel drop like the Elf Warrior of Zelhill. Or the trash drops like Goblins, Zombie and Vampires.

#136 laserlars

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:42

Why only scaveging BG? Would you farm an Elite set if you have to kiil an Elite 30/40 times?
(p.s. if you never tried, the answer is: no :wink: )


Because Scavenging is supposed to be a gold sink.

I have doubled the drop rate on the super low drops. I have not tweaked those with super high like the stone troll or those in a somewhat midlevel drop like the Elf Warrior of Zelhill. Or the trash drops like Goblins, Zombie and Vampires.


Arena is supposed to be a gold sink as well right?

#137 C4RPY

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:43

Only Scavenging requires tweaking because even if you throw gold at the caves, you are not guaranteed anything back. However there has to be a decent chance to get something otherwise, who'd bother?


See Grim, I disagree here...

I also think you will need to look at changing the drop rate of some, if not all Elites, yes, just your normal Elites. I have given my reasons in this thread already as to why..

In short... Elites Drops/Sets are rarely that useful and only re-spawn once every 10 minutes at xx:07, xx:17 etc etc where as your normal class of creatures are more readily available to get drops from. Increasing the Elite Drop rates will NOT flood the market, just make them worth hunting. Some Elites were already very tough to get a drop from and now will almost be impossible. having to kill 20+ Elites for 1 drop now would take 3 hours+, 9 hours+ to get the set if you got 3 different drops... this is just a pain and will take out the fun of hunting Normal Elites at the end of each content. Now if the sets were as powerful and useful as SE sets then I could understand wanting to make them rarer to get hold of but the fact is that they are not!

Take a look at RJEM's Tiered class drop rate :)

It's a great idea and can be adjusted to what you would think is best... or take feedback from us here :)

#138 C4RPY

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:46

Why only scaveging BG? Would you farm an Elite set if you have to kiil an Elite 30/40 times?
(p.s. if you never tried, the answer is: no :wink: )


Because Scavenging is supposed to be a gold sink.


Yes I get that Grim but you are taking away a fun and active part of the game with screwing up the Normal Elite drop rates in the realms... They are not profitable anyway and as already said 90% of the sets are not all that useful.. now having to kill an elite for god knows how many hours to get a set will just not happen.. players will not do it.. so you may aswell take the Elites out the game!

#139 RJEM

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:49

Why only scaveging BG? Would you farm an Elite set if you have to kiil an Elite 30/40 times?
(p.s. if you never tried, the answer is: no :wink: )


Because Scavenging is supposed to be a gold sink.

I have doubled the drop rate on the super low drops. I have not tweaked those with super high like the stone troll or those in a somewhat midlevel drop like the Elf Warrior of Zelhill. Or the trash drops like Goblins, Zombie and Vampires.


Is that 'doubled again today' - or a reference to the doubling from yesterday?

#140 BigGrim

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 11:53

As in I just doubled the Super lows today.


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