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Game Update v1.871


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#321 DragonLord

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:02

I preferred the relic system as it was. I have only come across complaints about relics being "over powered" coming from persons involved in PVP Ladder and PVP.


Wrong, wrong and wrong ... I have NO interest in, nor do I participate in PvP but I think (and have thought) that relics have been overpowered for a LONG time.

Nor is it a case of sour grapes, 'cos I'm in the "have not" camp of guilds. In the prior guild I was in, we regularly had a 10% relic and held it for over a week at a time.

The fact is, 20% relics create a massive differential between those that have them, and those that dont. The ones that do have them protect them well (as they should) - and when they ARE taken, veiled (or not so veiled) threats are issued and guild wars can erupt.

Relics should give a bonus to those that can take them and defend them, but 20% across the board (as all relics above level 700 are) is just too much. Reduce that total bonus to 10% (be that across 1, 2 or 3 relics) and I think more players will be happy. It's a compromise that will both level the playing field somewhat and still give those who can take/defend them, something to aim for.

#322 fs_evilix

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:19

See what i'm saying?
The ones who had the over empowered relics will sit and defend what they think until thier blue in the face.Right,I started a small guild which has never had more than 13 players.We only have 13 spots.Just the way we like it.We take relics everyday.We have over a billion guild XP.We have some of the coolest players in the game.We have our reasons for wanting a small guild.
So what is the reason why a big guild should have over empowered relics?
Why do big guilds need to have an unfair advantage over everyone else?
Do you think your guild is more important than mine because your guild is bigger?

ZP has never asked anyone for anything.
So you can take that gimme,gimme,gimme somewhere else.
It's the big guilds who are always crying "Gimme"
Just like now.

#323 fs_evilix

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:28

RJEM comes up with some of the best ideas that i've ever seen in the forums.
He genuinely seems to care about the game and his ideas are well thought out.
I hope his ideas about relics gets implemented soon.
He thinks about other players before himself and that is very rare in this game.

#324 fs_evilix

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:38

And with that,flame all you want.
Have an Evil day!!

#325 EvilTrace

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:42

I know it has been said but all I want to say on this matter is: You asked for our opinion on a poll, many votes were placed and it was a majority NO to relic changes. So why have you changed them? What is the point of asking us if you had no intention of listening to us.

Pointless poll and pointless waste of time, you have many other things wrong with this game you need to actually fix.

Why do I get the feeling unless you kick, scream and whine like a baby you don't get your way in this game.

#326 fs_greg975

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:43

I can't understand the way HCS think, you did an ingame poll about relics then you ignored the opinion of hundreds (maybe even thousands) of players and you made a change based on the opinion of 20-30 players that posted it in the forums, and you are still wondering why the game dies? why the number of online players is decreasing day after day?
I am not going to comment on the subject because i don't think it matters anymore, i don't think anything you do to the game matters anymore, i hope i will be proved wrong but i don't think there will be FS at 2012 and the reson is that you keep ignoring the majority of the players and base you decisions on the few that post in the forums

#327 Sakuliver

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:56

nice update Hoof!

and...LoL to all the complainers, 95% of them surprisingly being from guilds who used to have their +20% stat bonus cruising through the game :evil: ! Maybe you have to think a little now for some levels!
...and don't forget it was pretty obvious that many of the big guilds put an effort in it to get their members all voting in the poll, while the majority of the players, often lower level with no experience for the influence of those bonuses, were not bothering/organized to put a vote in.

#328 EvilTrace

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:13

...and don't forget it was pretty obvious that many of the big guilds put an effort in it to get their members all voting in the poll, while the majority of the players, often lower level with no experience for the influence of those bonuses, were not bothering/organized to put a vote in.


EXACTLY why polls should be listened to. The people who voted WERE bothered and organised and cared about the outcome of the poll. The poll wasn't 45-55...from my memory it was a much bigger gap. Based off the ingame poll that was available for everyone to vote in, it was a no to tweaks and it should have remained that way.

#329 DragonLord

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:21

...and don't forget it was pretty obvious that many of the big guilds put an effort in it to get their members all voting in the poll, while the majority of the players, often lower level with no experience for the influence of those bonuses, were not bothering/organized to put a vote in.


EXACTLY why polls should be listened to. The people who voted WERE bothered and organised and cared about the outcome of the poll. The poll wasn't 45-55...from my memory it was a much bigger gap. Based off the ingame poll that was available for everyone to vote in, it was a no to tweaks and it should have remained that way.


I recall that vote as being about 50/50 - but even if the majority of voters said no, that still doesn't mean the majority of players were in favour of keeping things as they were... just that the majority of voters were. I also seem to recall that the actual votes cast were VERY low - less than 200 certainly - so hardly an overwhelming active player majority vote.

Maybe the players didn't vote because historically, player opinions have made little difference BEFORE a change has been made ? - so, perhaps the lack of voting was down to a "why bother" attitude.

Regardless, the change is made - folk who have lost their 20% will complain and most others will rejoice ... life goes on :)

#330 Blixen

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:24

nice update Hoof!

and...LoL to all the complainers, 95% of them surprisingly being from guilds who used to have their +20% stat bonus cruising through the game :evil: ! Maybe you have to think a little now for some levels!
...and don't forget it was pretty obvious that many of the big guilds put an effort in it to get their members all voting in the poll, while the majority of the players, often lower level with no experience for the influence of those bonuses, were not bothering/organized to put a vote in.


Well said.

Also - what would you answer if I offered you 10$ to answer the question - "do you think a Lightsabre is overpowered?"

You would say - no. Because you dont have a clue what a lightsabre is. So what is a new player, who dont have a clue what a relic is going to vote on the poll?

#331 RJEM

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:45

For those advocating a progressive system of relic empowerment, how would you deal with the issue of losing one of the relics (say the 1st or 2nd one) and then later replacing the lost one with another?
How would anyone know which was the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc relic empowered (and what one is able to empower them to) when things start getting murky like that?

I'm not saying that the progressive system can't be done; I just saying I'd like more details on how each of these situations would be dealt with in your vision of this approach... with an important detail is one way that a program would be able to determine this. AND how would you help the humans needing to work within your system to know which was the 1st, 2nd and 3rd or more relic?


Sorry Myakka, I went to sleep rather than continue arguing this last night. It's a good question though :)

My answer is not perfect, but I think it covers all the bases. It also requires HCS to add the 'unempower relic' option mentioned by Hoof last night. I personally feel there needs to be a cost associated with this, but it's a separate issue.

Firstly, relics can be empowered in any order - let's assume for the moment we have 6 relics, A-F. The display order on the Guild Manage page would initially be by time held. For simplicity, let's assume: A, B, C, D, E, F

We then empower relic C. This moves it to the top of the list - and ideally gives the icon a distinctive border indicating empowerment (Perhaps a green one like Incoming Messages?): C, A, B, D, E, F

Subsequent empowerments shift relics 2, 3 and 4 to the appropriate positions in the list (top to bottom), and they all get the same border so guilds know they are empowered: C, F, D, A, B, E

Should a relic be captured and then retaken it simply reappears at the bottom of the list (let’s assume C is taken and then recaptured: F, D, A, B, E, C

Relics F and D move up the empowerment chain to 5x and 3x bonuses respectively. Note that this will result in a decreased cost for both of these relics, so upkeep will not increase as a result of a capture.

Finally, if the guild wishes to return relic C to the full 5x empowerment it would be necessary to unempower F and D and then empower them all in the desired order – easily visible on the management screen. This needs the option mentioned above to be implemented with appropriate permissions.

Additionally, it adds an incentive to hold the most desired relic best, since reempowering it would be an additional gold sink. I think it’s all fairly logical and doesn’t require much additional work. Obviously the ‘Every relic should give 5 or 10% bonuses’ proponents can argue that this is overly complicated, but honestly any guild trying to empower 2 or 3 relics at once should be both strong enough to defend them and organised enough to cope with a bit of planning.

#332 tedlogan

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:48

The fact is, 20% relics create a massive differential between those that have them, and those that dont. The ones that do have them protect them well (as they should) - and when they ARE taken, veiled (or not so veiled) threats are issued and guild wars can erupt.


Well, that's the case for many things in the game. By the same logic, powerful items or buffs should be removed altogether because they provide a definite advantage to those who can afford them. But games like FS just are like that - you can't just take that out. The point is: These things are available for everybody to take/acquire. They are not "unfairly" given to some and not to others.

Relics should give a bonus to those that can take them and defend them, but 20% across the board (as all relics above level 700 are) is just too much. Reduce that total bonus to 10% (be that across 1, 2 or 3 relics) and I think more players will be happy. It's a compromise that will both level the playing field somewhat and still give those who can take/defend them, something to aim for.


Like I said before, I wouldn't mind a reduction too much. Just leave it at 10 empower levels like before, but cap the max bonus at 10%. Adding gold upkeep is - like any gold sink - not a bad idea either. Make it so that the empower/upkeep cost doesn't increase linearly, so that holding 2 relics at 5% empower bonus would be cheaper, but more difficult for the guild in question. That is enough "levelling the playing field" IMO.

#333 fs_evilix

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:06

nice update Hoof!

and...LoL to all the complainers, 95% of them surprisingly being from guilds who used to have their +20% stat bonus cruising through the game :evil: ! Maybe you have to think a little now for some levels!
...and don't forget it was pretty obvious that many of the big guilds put an effort in it to get their members all voting in the poll, while the majority of the players, often lower level with no experience for the influence of those bonuses, were not bothering/organized to put a vote in.


Excellent point.

And who's to say that some of the low level players votes couldn't have been "bought" by the high levels voting in their favor to keep over-empowered relics?
Therefore having a "poll" on the discussion would be pointless?

#334 tedlogan

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:18

See what i'm saying?
The ones who had the over empowered relics will sit and defend what they think until thier blue in the face.Right,I started a small guild which has never had more than 13 players.We only have 13 spots.Just the way we like it.We take relics everyday.We have over a billion guild XP.We have some of the coolest players in the game.We have our reasons for wanting a small guild.

Exactly. You CHOSE to play this way, which is perfectly fine.


So what is the reason why a big guild should have over empowered relics?

Because it is a bigger guild, silly. They chose to play differently that you, and their larger player base allows them to do things you cannot do with few players.


Why do big guilds need to have an unfair advantage over everyone else?

There is no "unfair" advantage. Everybody is given the same opportunity to play in such a way that they can enjoy larger relic bonuses.


Do you think your guild is more important than mine because your guild is bigger?

This takes us to your main "point": You are the one who thinks he's more important. You chose to play the game in a certain way, but don't want to live with the disadvantages that come with it, so you want something to be taken away from others which you yourself freely chose not to have. So, yes - whining "gimme, gimme" is precisely what you do.
Oh, and brownnosing well-reputed forum posters isn't going to make your posts look any better.

#335 nayuta

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:19

HCS should consider capturing, defending and empowering the relics not only involve golds but also involve the stamina used.

Defending relics need require players to spend a lot of stamina in terms of travelling to the hunting area and back to relic. and defending relics are not easy easy because any players with large attack group can easily capture the relics.

Limit the stat bonuses from the relics to only 10% is find, but empowered relics have only 3% bonuses are not worth for the stamina and golds invested.

5% empowered bonus is fair, so that only 2 empowered relics are needed to be defended.

If 3% empowered bonus, a lot of great guild may need to capture 4 relics to get the 10% bonus. and i think this is not a good idea.

Please listen to our commend, PLEASE change IT.

#336 iut044

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:28

Can you lower the cost of xp gain relics as Searing Orb is costing 10,025 per hour per member upkeep which no guild can afford .

#337 tedlogan

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:33

And who's to say that some of the low level players votes couldn't have been "bought" by the high levels voting in their favor to keep over-empowered relics?
Therefore having a "poll" on the discussion would be pointless?


What? You're at conspiracy theories already?


:)

:D

:lol:

#338 Maehdros

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:52


Do you think your guild is more important than mine because your guild is bigger?

This takes us to your main "point": You are the one who thinks he's more important. You chose to play the game in a certain way, but don't want to live with the disadvantages that come with it, so you want something to be taken away from others which you yourself freely chose not to have. So, yes - whining "gimme, gimme" is precisely what you do.
Oh, and brownnosing well-reputed forum posters isn't going to make your posts look any better.




For a long time,players have had relics,and some have not. Some get used to playing with and without them, while others are constantly used to having this boost to stats. Now the boost is lowered. I dont see a problem with it. I was in WK in the past with the 20% boost, sure, its fancy for pvp and leveling but NOT necessary.I've been in a small guild with 5 or 6 people and no relic,and played fine.*waves at KJ* Heck I never even had any points into damage level up.

Relics have been over powered for a long time, anyone who doesn't think so, obviously doesn't play every aspect of the game, or has't played constantly with or without relics. There's a big difference in 20% and 0% bonus to stats. Some players adapt to playing the game with an without relics, while others get too used to playing with relics and act like the sky is falling when they lose them.

#339 fs_johe71

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:00

Can you lower the cost of xp gain relics as Searing Orb is costing 10,025 per hour per member upkeep which no guild can afford .


from an earlier page in this thread

Also we'll change the formula tomorrow so the values for xp gain and gold gain is reduced in regards to the upkeep formula, making the upkeep of relics with xp gain and gold gain more reasonable :)



#340 Saxon

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:04

This update really has made a huge difference overnight. The max bonus from 2 x relics was 20%.

RJEM has made some valid points, but the scaling of the relics just makes it confusing.
So why not just keep it simple and go with the 5% per relic with a max at 10% (which is still half of what was available before) plus cap the stam/xp gains at double.

A big issue at present is the cost per hour of the relic once empowered. HCS can you please address the cost per hour of the relics please and maybe make the empowering more costly and the per hour affordable.


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