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making tagged gear breakable


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Poll: MAKING TAGGED GEAR BREAKABLE (138 member(s) have cast votes)

MAKING TAGGED GEAR BREAKABLE

  1. Voted YES (51 votes [36.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.96%

  2. Voted NO (87 votes [63.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.04%

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#361 vamunre

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 21:31

I dont know about LOFG, but I know my wife has bought at least a few more octo, polar, volkers sets, because they have been used up. I know allot of people dont buy distil because it it costs 300k+ on a regualr basis. that isnt allot to me but if you only have 2,3k max stamina then it is a big deal. try thinking about the players that dont have 10k+ max stamina.

#362 hades8840

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 22:52

I dont know about LOFG, but I know my wife has bought at least a few more octo, polar, volkers sets, because they have been used up. I know allot of people dont buy distil because it it costs 300k+ on a regualr basis. that isnt allot to me but if you only have 2,3k max stamina then it is a big deal. try thinking about the players that dont have 10k+ max stamina.


then this update would benefit ur wife the fact is if the stuff was used up more cause ppl like ur wife dont use distill then hcs would have more events which means she could either hunt her sets or buy them for cheap on the event days or just after when the market is at its cheapest by having crystaline items protected by distil with ub190 then ppl who can afford distill protect what they have its the ones who cant afford distil so therefore their items are distroyed quicker pay the most as they have to replace gear more often usually at a higher cost as items have risen in value

#363 Bleltch

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 02:07

then this update would benefit ur wife the fact is if the stuff was used up more cause ppl like ur wife dont use distill then hcs would have more events which means she could either hunt her sets or buy them for cheap on the event days or just after when the market is at its cheapest by having crystaline items protected by distil with ub190 then ppl who can afford distill protect what they have its the ones who cant afford distil so therefore their items are distroyed quicker pay the most as they have to replace gear more often usually at a higher cost as items have risen in value

I dont agree. A player like that is going to be one of the first to need new crystal. They'll have 2 options until the next event: Do without, or buy from one of the mega merchants, or arena masters. Either way they're not going to benefit. The more hcs relies on the number of items in the game, the more the everyday player will get the shaft from breaking crystal. Now if they do regular events, (and stick to a decent schedule) players would be able to more easily work around that and be able to farm their own items in a more planned manner. Then they would benefit. But the way BG was going on that's not the way it would be.

#364 fs_regnier7

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 02:43

Lots of great ideas:

- UB maxed at 95% (can keep the UB200, will be a UB190 anyways)
- Realms that negate UB
- Creatures that negate UB
- New recipes (using legendary and crystalline items to make new crystalline items)
- use crystalline items in potions.

All great ideas, all things HCS should look at.


I think there would only be a need to limit it in regard to crystalline items though...


I don't get the point of 100% UB for things other than crystal staying. People will be miffed at their crystal getting a chink in it before they even notice they have to use a wee bit of gold to repair here and there. I would think it's a lot simpler to alter max buff effect than to put exceptions into it?

#365 centurion

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:37

I've used fair amount of crystalline sets in lvling. firefur got used a fair amount, and I believe sludge will as well. I also used dawn set already. but, I think having a few blueprint are good idea. if the items are desirable for lvling, it will get used more. not to mention using up all the existing items.

#366 BigGrim

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:49

not sure if the obvious has already been stated, but maybe the simple solution is to scale back the legendary events a bit. Not have 13 creatures released at once, flooding the market with thousands of items that used to be fairly scarce.


That does not help anything though, every one who was hunting the ones we didn't put in, would be hunting the others. Increasing their numbers further.

However, what about the excess legendary gear we have in the game?


We already have new-ish Legendary sets and whatnot that absorb old sets and that is how some of the future non-crystalline sets will be made.

But the way BG was going on that's not the way it would be.


What? I said that with the Crystalline being used up there would be MORE FREQUENT EVENTS. Which would benefit everyone.

In the end, if this uses up crystailline, that means the Spine Chompers can come out every two or three months, alternating between the Drop wave and the Inventing wave. More events benefit everyone as they will hunt for their own sets instead of simply buying them.

#367 tedlogan

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 11:44

I think the general consensus is that forced crystalline damage would be a good thing, to see the items removed from the game again at some point and also because, well, they were originally intented to be breakable.

The best solution IMO would be, as has been mentioned before in this thread, to keep the solution simple and spot-on - nerf the crystalline items as such, so that the implemented changes affect only them, and not other items/areas of the game as well. No need to make more/larger changes than are really necessary.

I think that the best course of action would be to slightly lower the maximum UB that crystalline gear can be affected by, so that all used crystalline items would take damage over time. I mean, what we want is a certain effective damage rate. I think we would see the best results with a slight but steady damage rate. A majority of players must still be willing to spend gold/FSP on buying/forging and then eventually rebuying these items. We need to try and get as many players as possible on board here, not just those who have lots of resources. I think we would see the best net result (in terms of crystalline gear destroyed) that way, while also avoiding to alienate too many players with what might be viewed as a drastic game change - since shared guild gear would get destroyed too quickly then.

A slight reduction in durability might also be added - 100-120 seems like a good max value to me. Not too low, for the same reasons as above, not too high so the items won't last too long.

#368 Savanc

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:47

I think the general consensus is that forced crystalline damage would be a good thing, to see the items removed from the game again at some point and also because, well, they were originally intented to be breakable.

The best solution IMO would be, as has been mentioned before in this thread, to keep the solution simple and spot-on - nerf the crystalline items as such, so that the implemented changes affect only them, and not other items/areas of the game as well. No need to make more/larger changes than are really necessary.

I think that the best course of action would be to slightly lower the maximum UB that crystalline gear can be affected by, so that all used crystalline items would take damage over time. I mean, what we want is a certain effective damage rate. I think we would see the best results with a slight but steady damage rate. A majority of players must still be willing to spend gold/FSP on buying/forging and then eventually rebuying these items. We need to try and get as many players as possible on board here, not just those who have lots of resources. I think we would see the best net result (in terms of crystalline gear destroyed) that way, while also avoiding to alienate too many players with what might be viewed as a drastic game change - since shared guild gear would get destroyed too quickly then.

+1
Although I don't think it would be a problem if the limited effect of UB would affect all items, not just crystalline, provided that the limited level of UB is still reasonably high.




A slight reduction in durability might also be added - 100-120 seems like a good max value to me. Not too low, for the same reasons as above, not too high so the items won't last too long.

A slight reduction: yes. But in my opinion 100-120 would be way too much of a reduction.

Most buffs work like this: if you double the level of a buff then its effect is also doubled. Buffs like EA, EW, KE, Berserk, Fury, Constitution, AL, Lib, MEr, TH, etc. work this way.
UB is one of the buffs that work quite differently (like SES, DC, Conserve, LF, Flinch, Terrorize, etc.). We should look at UB as if it "starts" at level 200 and "ends" at level 0. The distance between the UB level and 200 is how effective it is. If we double the distance then we halve the effects. For example, UB190 (distance = 200-190 = 10) makes items take 5% of their normal damage. UB180 (distance = 200-180 = 20) makes items take 10% of their normal damage.

What you're proposing is that crystalline takes 40% to 50% of their basic durability hits, which is quite a lot.

I'm taking RJEM's recent post to show how long crystalline then will last:

...
The Effects of Unbreakable[/u]

We can gain some insight into the effectiveness of Unbreakable by looking at how long a 160 Durability Spine item could be expected to last hunting under various conditions and at various levels:

Posted Image

Making some crude assumptions about hunting with doubler 750 active and ignoring quests, all other buffs etc. we can get an approximation of how long a spine item should last.

Without UB Spine loses 1 durability every 17 combats or so - so we're talking at least 2750 combats before it's destroyed completely.

With UB175 we're looking at more like 22000, and with UB190 it goes up to 55000! The chart shows crudely how many levels you could expect to gain using the same spine items before they broke at various points in the game - for example, around level 300 a spine item with UB190 has a life expectancy of nearly 300 levels. Even a level 700 item like Volkers should last the best part of 150 levels with just UB190 active compared to under 10 with it absent.
...

If we'd have a UB of level 100-120 then crystalline would last for 14-18 levels (at level 700), 20-25 levels (at level 500), 30-37 levels (at level 300) and 88-110 levels (at level 100).
The results of limiting the UB effect to 100-120 seems ok at level 100 and perhaps 300, but it makes the use of crystalline after level 300 onwards very expensive and probably impossible for most players.

Extrapolating the data shows that for level 900, 1100 and 1200 the levels that cryalline will last is:
UB level	  0	100	120	150	175	180	190
Level 100	44	 88	110	177	356	444	889
Level 300	15	 30	 37	 59	119	148	297
Level 500	10	 20	 25	 41	 83	103	207
Level 700	 7	 15	 18	 29	 59	 73	147
Level 900	 6	 11	 14	 23	 45 	57	114
Level 1100	5	  9	 11	 18	 37 	46	 93
Level 1200	4	  8	 10	 17	 34 	43	 86
I doubt anyone would even be interested in wearing crystalline after level 900 if it breaks every 8-14 levels. And I doubt anyone above level 500 would even think of forging their crystalline sets if they know it lasts for only 10-25 levels... (btw, forging is a huge gold sink in the higher levels) :roll:

Limiting the effect of UB to level 175, 180 or 190 would be much better at the higher levels. Then crystalline would last 34, 43, 86 levels (at level 1200); 38, 46, 93 (at level 1100); 46, 57, 114 (at level 900); 59, 74, 147 (at level 700); 83, 103, 207 (at level 500); 119, 148, 297 (at level 300) and 356, 444, 889 (at level 100).
I definitely think crystalline now would last too long at level 100 and 300 (even 500 if the limit is UB190), but at least this won't completely kill the usefullness of crystalline at level 700+. :roll:

Maybe raising the durability points on high level crystalline and a medium UB limit (like UB175) or lowering the durability points on low level crystalline and a high UB limit (like UB190) would be best. 8)

#369 centurion

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 13:54

not many lower lvl uses UB 190. I started using UB175 with Octo set when I was lvling. also, lower lvl rarely uses high lvl doubler. lot of lower lvl crystalline also has lower durability as well.

I don't see a problem with leaving it with max of ub 190.


UB190 max would definitely force people to keep their own crystalline, as most guild tagged one will break relatively quick if several are using it. and frankly, high lvl player should be using their own anyway. they should be able to afford the bp space and hunt it.

#370 bulseye71

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 14:07

I'm just truing to figure out why there are 2 separate "polls" being run on the same issue....one on the game page one in the forum and the forum will be run till Aug 9th????...puzzling.


because i came up with the original idea and hcs liked it and added there own poll and allowing the idea to devolop but at its core its the same thing to limit ub on crystline which is what i wanted but wasnt sure how well it went down lol now i know


Thanks for the clarification =)

#371 Savanc

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 14:18

not many lower lvl uses UB 190. I started using UB175 with Octo set when I was lvling. also, lower lvl rarely uses high lvl doubler. lot of lower lvl crystalline also has lower durability as well.

I don't see a problem with leaving it with max of ub 190.


UB190 max would definitely force people to keep their own crystalline, as most guild tagged one will break relatively quick if several are using it. and frankly, high lvl player should be using their own anyway. they should be able to afford the bp space and hunt it.

True, many players start to use crystalline at level 350 with the Octo set.

And the lower crystalline sets aren't that good for leveling so it doesn't matter much what level DB or UB they use when they're not using crystalline for leveling anyway. :wink:

UB190 would be nice for the most used crystalline sets. 8)
Anything below UB175 would just make crystalline break too soon and many players to won't want to use crystalline anymore (unless it's really cheap) nor will they forge it if they do use crystalline. :roll:

#372 JBKing89

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 14:32

not sure if the obvious has already been stated, but maybe the simple solution is to scale back the legendary events a bit. Not have 13 creatures released at once, flooding the market with thousands of items that used to be fairly scarce.


That does not help anything though, every one who was hunting the ones we didn't put in, would be hunting the others. Increasing their numbers further.

[


Then decrease the drop rates on special events. I thought special events and the accompanying items were "special" - meaning not everyone in the entire FS world could buy one for 1 fsp or less. There's currently 176 pages of Auctions just searching the word "spine" --- that is overkill, and bad for the game. don't apply a bandage to the original problem of a "special" event that has turned mundane.

#373 hades8840

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 14:43

not sure if the obvious has already been stated, but maybe the simple solution is to scale back the legendary events a bit. Not have 13 creatures released at once, flooding the market with thousands of items that used to be fairly scarce.


That does not help anything though, every one who was hunting the ones we didn't put in, would be hunting the others. Increasing their numbers further.

[


Then decrease the drop rates on special events. I thought special events and the accompanying items were "special" - meaning not everyone in the entire FS world could buy one for 1 fsp or less. There's currently 176 pages of Auctions just searching the word "spine" --- that is overkill, and bad for the game. don't apply a bandage to the original problem of a "special" event that has turned mundane.


how would that work u kill the drop rate then only ppl with large amounts of stam get the drops ie like me now that would work if i wanted to hoard crap but them days are long gone i would rather see ppl with low end stam banks being able to get drops instead of ppl having to spend thousands of stram b4 they get a drop..by making sets actually break then them sets are gone meaning everyone gets to have some fun during a event if u over farm then ur stuck with junk ..the fact there is 176 pages of spine gear is 1 its not long after a event and mainly 2 the gear does not break easily so therefore it is not used up so when items come around again there is still crap loads from when they last appeared

#374 BigGrim

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 15:24

Then decrease the drop rates on special events. I thought special events and the accompanying items were "special" - meaning not everyone in the entire FS world could buy one for 1 fsp or less. There's currently 176 pages of Auctions just searching the word "spine" --- that is overkill, and bad for the game. don't apply a bandage to the original problem of a "special" event that has turned mundane.


And then no-one bothers hunting coz it's boring. Spine Chompers and Crystalline were introduced to be a regular event. They aren't due to UB making the items hang around. This would fix this problem.

#375 sweetlou

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 20:16

And then no-one bothers hunting coz it's boring. Spine Chompers and Crystalline were introduced to be a regular event. They aren't due to UB making the items hang around. This would fix this problem.

You want regular Crystal events? make UB not work at all on Crystal. You could have weekly, bi-weekly or monthly events easy.

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#376 Savanc

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 20:17

And then no-one bothers hunting coz it's boring. Spine Chompers and Crystalline were introduced to be a regular event. They aren't due to UB making the items hang around. This would fix this problem.

You want regular Crystal events? make UB not work at all on Crystal. You could have weekly, bi-weekly or monthly events easy.

And only a handful of players will even bother to use crystalline then.... :roll:

#377 sweetlou

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 20:54

And then no-one bothers hunting coz it's boring. Spine Chompers and Crystalline were introduced to be a regular event. They aren't due to UB making the items hang around. This would fix this problem.

You want regular Crystal events? make UB not work at all on Crystal. You could have weekly, bi-weekly or monthly events easy.

And only a handful of players will even bother to use crystalline then.... :roll:

Prove it. You can't because they would still be in demand. The devs want to hold regular events that are popular and fun. They control the supply side of ALL gear in the game. By making Crystal lose durability quickly they will in effect create a higher demand and can control the releases of Crystal dropping mobs. Mission accomplished. If the events are regular enough the drops will be plentiful.

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#378 Savanc

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 21:17

You want regular Crystal events? make UB not work at all on Crystal. You could have weekly, bi-weekly or monthly events easy.

And only a handful of players will even bother to use crystalline then.... :roll:

Prove it. You can't because they would still be in demand. The devs want to hold regular events that are popular and fun. They control the supply side of ALL gear in the game. By making Crystal lose durability quickly they will in effect create a higher demand and can control the releases of Crystal dropping mobs. Mission accomplished. If the events are regular enough the drops will be plentiful.

Prove it? How? We can do it and see how it goes down the drain... We could ask everyone in the game through a poll... :roll:
I'd rather back up my statements with valid arguments.

If a set breaks after just 4-10 levels then most people aren't going to spend much FSP on them. And they'd be even more unwilling to forge items that break that soon, which is too bad because forging is a very nice gold sink.

Limiting the effects of UB instead of removing them would have crystalline be worth more than little to nothing, make forging crystalline a viable option and still make it possible to have a crystalline event every month or so. 8)

Personally, I'd get bored pretty soon if we'd a crystalline event every week or two... :roll:

#379 Savanc

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:47

http://smith357.zoin...mage/83413-bmup

#380 NatalieEGH

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 16:59

I think I have to agree with Hades on the drop rate thing. I went after Octo Spine with FI1000 and 10k stamina. I got about 50 or 60 pieces including 7 perfect shields and 2 perfect runes. I gave items to 3 guilds and we sold some on the AH. I still have probably 20 items in my bp. They will probably sit there a long time. I really do not care as long as I have space for other things.

At the drop rate I got that is about 1 drop for every 200 stamina. This rate gives people with even basic 500 stamina a reasonable chance for 2 items if not one of each.

I think it is reasonable to reduce the effect of UB on Crystalline especially if HCS plans on having somewhat regular events. Based on how UB worked for me in my 350-400 range, at least for my guild using UB190 would take my entire guild from level 350 until ready to switch out. That is a problem. Crystalline was never meant to last forever. It gives for the level extreme bonuses compared to other items of around the same level.

I definitely think UB should be limited to 175 for ALL equipment, guild owned or personal, crystalline or non-crystalline. And considering how powerful crystalline is, UB should probably have even less effect on it.

One possibility if you want to keep the high level UB (max 190 total, never 200), is to have durability damage doubled or even quadrupled with it does take damage. That way if you keep using UB 190 it will be unlikely to take damage but when it does it will be significantly more than normal. (I am assuming UB help keep damage of any kind for happening, at least that is how it has appeared to me).


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