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Official Suggestion : PvP Improvements (rev. 8)


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#101 fs_satis

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:44


But wasn't it one big, open band? I don't know, I came in when it was already in bands. My point is - where's the risk if there's no reward? To me it seems without rewards that act as currency, I have no incentive to play the ladder. I don't have to prove my worth as a PvPer.

What about a middle ground then? Non-bound potions, at least. They don't have to be worth 500fsp a potion, but should justify the cost of stam, buffs, activity, participation, etc. That's how I see it, anyway. If I want to PvP to win something, I will. Just like if I want to spend gold on the arena, scavenging, even bounty hunting offers a reward.



With this system ..gold hitting...stomping bounties.. clearing bounties..would show on a ladder. Normal everyday pvp activity. Isnt that what it should be about? Thats what we are trying to do here.


its about who goes out and hits others.. for gold..for xp.. sometimes for rating. Players dont even have to be a ladder player ( as most on ladders are now) to win something. They play the game...clear some bounties...find a gold target or two..and baam! They get a token or two.wow... a token..for playing the game as they normally would O.o ;)



it should be about enjoying pvp. Not enjoying rewards. I hit because I like hitting, i like deleveling those who screw with my guild or friends, I like bounty hunting. etc. I get some tokens for it? wow..awesome. is that what drives my desire to pvp? Nope. Nor should it be.


It's a great notion but you're wrong, the people who PvP as part of the game ie bounty's or gold hitting, will land no where near enough rating to compete the people farming for rating.

#102 RebornJedi

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:44

...i think pvp protection is why the marketplace is getting so high at times..tis a great tool to manipulate an already manipulative system


Or could it be LACK of PvP protection .... people putting their gold up ASAP????? :idea:

nah..it's still mainly due to the manipulation that can occur on the marketplace..its funny when you can take the gold off hand but your listing can still stay up until someone tries to fulfill it :roll: ..(unless im just a drunk and they fixed that exploit)

 


#103 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:46

...i think pvp protection is why the marketplace is getting so high at times..tis a great tool to manipulate an already manipulative system


Or could it be LACK of PvP protection .... people putting their gold up ASAP????? :idea:

nah..it's still mainly due to the manipulation that can occur on the marketplace..its funny when you can take the gold off hand but your listing can still stay up until someone tries to fulfill it :roll: ..(unless im just a drunk and they fixed that exploit)


I didnt know that was possible .... but then I am an honest person and those ideas of how to manipulate or twist or cheat dont pop in my head. Hmmmmmm

#104 fs_xvxevilxvx

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:47

I TYPE IN ALL CAPS CUZ I R SPECIAL.
IS THAT CRYING? THERES NO CRYING IN FALLEN SWORD! STOP CRYING!!

AND HEY...FOR YOU SISSIES...
This is a FIGHTING game. If you're going to whine because you got attacked, there is an app out there called "Lil Miss Suzie's Tea Party". I suggest you play that. You can be in charge of the teabags.

i really couldnt resist...

And just to be constructive... (hehe) heres a pvp improvement:
Increase the bounty hit limit and EXP loss limit on bounties. WOOOT!!!

#105 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:48

Perhaps this Market issue should be handled FIRST ... as it is a game manipulation ..... what do you say Hoof?

#106 abhorrence

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:49

nah..it's still mainly due to the manipulation that can occur on the marketplace..its funny when you can take the gold off hand but your listing can still stay up until someone tries to fulfill it :roll: ..(unless im just a drunk and they fixed that exploit)


There is a fix for this. The system checks periodically to verify. No idea what the timer is.

#107 RebornJedi

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:51

tis a dirty world out there and all it needs is a coder *cough cough* :lol: ;)...but on the pvp protection side of things..your gold on hand should always be at risk. tis my thoughts on it. there are several ways of protecting yourself from gold hits. the bank..deflect..hidden coffer..guildmates..reputation for putting up a fight for your gold( i guess some love with all their heart because of the heartbreak and turmoil that comes from being robbed of some coins, so why not fight for it :twisted: )

 


#108 lordthade

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:59

I don't pvp. Not my thing. I play for friendship and levels. I know it's make-believe. If I wanted reality I wouldn't play games in the first place.

I guess i never could wrap my head around the logic that I have to actually stand on a monster to be able to even swing at it, but a player "in my level range" could hit me any where any time.

My reasons for a strongly disagree vote:
1. Epics are already worthless enough to most players. Might as well remove them with this upgrade if you do it. Many already barely used in hunting. They will be a curse offline.
2. Let pvpers hit an play with pvpers. Leave levelers an opt-out.
3. Want more pvp, encourage it with in-guild dueling. These upgrades are cart-before-the-horse.
4. Losing xp or rating is missing the point: I DON'T WANT TO PVP.
5. Inactivity is already rampant. You're just going to encourage more of it as a way to avoid being hit (the new opt-out will be only logging in as people hit max stamina). Joy. Just the kind of game everyone loves. :-)

#109 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:59

tis a dirty world out there and all it needs is a coder *cough cough* :lol: ;)...but on the pvp protection side of things..your gold on hand should always be at risk. tis my thoughts on it. there are several ways of protecting yourself from gold hits. the bank..deflect..hidden coffer..guildmates..reputation for putting up a fight for your gold( i guess some love with all their heart because of the heartbreak and turmoil that comes from being robbed of some coins, so why not fight for it :twisted: )


You are not telling me anything I dont know; however, there are lower level players who want to keep the ability to purchase PvP protection. I am speaking for those players who do not know how to use the forum, etc.

After being attacked in PvP ... if the player is put up on the BB it could end there .... or it could become a daily attack or hourly 100 stam for putting them up ... and Your greater power forbid they attack you in return. Because you will put them up with a twist ...I do know that there are ways to manipulate the BB ... like calling a guild meeting or arranging with friends over Skype to do a De-Level party .... where a player is put up at a specific time and everyone 100 stams them 9 times but they stay on the BB because none finish the bounty ..... to me this is Horrible Manipulation of the BB system. All of the "Pro" PvPers have participated or know that it happens ..... yet this issue isnt addressed here .... How come?

#110 donalde

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:00

...i think pvp protection is why the marketplace is getting so high at times..tis a great tool to manipulate an already manipulative system


MP is getting high when players want to get rid of their gold before they get PvP'd. Players who have PvP protection don't need to manipulate MP, as it is in constat movement.

Before PvP protection MP was rising constantly, now with PvP protection players aren't in rush to sell their gold, they can wait until they get good price.

#111 RD1542

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:02

in a nut shell this is what i think is happening, pvp and the ladder are being combined even more so than it is now, and once again we are creating every player into a target to gain nothing more than some pvp points. the old "rules " of pvp wont apply, it used to be that a if yu didn;t have lots of gold, or not a general d-bag, you were pretty well safe from PVP for the most part, minus a few prestige hits here and there, or just the unlucky recipient of a random hit.

now what i see will happen, especially if new items/potions are added, each player, especially in the higher levels, ie less targets. will be hit every reset for some pvp points, then the ranked players will battle it out for the remainder of the ladder reset, as each ladder resets rinse and repeat. this is only slightly better than the first bracket ladder changes, as players would get 100 stamed for a few points at the ending hours of a reset.

now that pandoras box has been opened (pvp protection) i really don;t see any way out of it as far as getting rid of it without a massive back lash..

what i really think would be in the best interest of the game as far as the ladder is concerned is to have a ladder reset that does not reset the pvp points system, it will take a few weeks but those who do not wish to be a part of the pvp points ladder system can just withstand a few attacks, and eventually we will have a representitive spread of who pvp's and who does not, and those in their brackets will have to maintain their stature to receive the points they want.

having a reset that will make every a player a target for nothing more than pvp points that several of us will want for the unfortunate fact that they are still playing and enduring reset after reset will not do well for the majority of the players, and i really don;t think a 75% reduction in XP loss will mean a whole lot when everyone keeps getting attacked time after time after time. etc etc etc ....

#112 Sethurus

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:06

...i think pvp protection is why the marketplace is getting so high at times..tis a great tool to manipulate an already manipulative system

That started when they installed the caves. Pvp protection has nothing to do with that.

#113 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:07

in a nut shell this is what i think is happening, pvp and the ladder are being combined even more so than it is now, and once again we are creating every player into a target to gain nothing more than some pvp points. the old "rules " of pvp wont apply, it used to be that a if yu didn;t have lots of gold, or not a general d-bag, you were pretty well safe from PVP for the most part, minus a few prestige hits here and there, or just the unlucky recipient of a random hit.

now what i see will happen, especially if new items/potions are added, each player, especially in the higher levels, ie less targets. will be hit every reset for some pvp points, then the ranked players will battle it out for the remainder of the ladder reset, as each ladder resets rinse and repeat. this is only slightly better than the first bracket ladder changes, as players would get 100 stamed for a few points at the ending hours of a reset.

now that pandoras box has been opened (pvp protection) i really don;t see any way out of it as far as getting rid of it without a massive back lash..

what i really think would be in the best interest of the game as far as the ladder is concerned is to have a ladder reset that does not reset the pvp points system, it will take a few weeks but those who do not wish to be a part of the pvp points ladder system can just withstand a few attacks, and eventually we will have a representitive spread of who pvp's and who does not, and those in their brackets will have to maintain their stature to receive the points they want.

having a reset that will make every a player a target for nothing more than pvp points that several of us will want for the unfortunate fact that they are still playing and enduring reset after reset will not do well for the majority of the players, and i really don;t think a 75% reduction in XP loss will mean a whole lot when everyone keeps getting attacked time after time after time. etc etc etc ....


Or rather than "enduring" hits ... the preference could allow us to set our PvP rating to ZERO ... so there is no reward for PvPers from Non-PvPers :idea:

#114 Windbattle

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:09

[quote name="Hoofmaster"]
[*]PvP Rating starts at 0 when the PvP Ladder resets.[/quote]
That is okay.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]Remove the need for the PvP Ladder opt-in/out by reducing the xp loss by 75% when a player has 0 PvP Rating. (This does not apply to bounty attacks.)[/quote]
That is great.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]PvP Rating can only be gained once per ladder reset from a player who has a PvP Rating of 0. (This prevents players not wanting to participate from being hit hourly for PvP Rating).[/quote]
Great to prevent abuse on non-pvpers.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]You can only gain PvP Rating from a maximum of 5 players with 0 PvP Rating after each ladder reset.[/quote]
Not sure on this one, but it seems 5 is too high. Time will tell.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]If you are defeated in combat while attacking, you will lose 50% of the equivalent PvP Rating you would have gained if you won the combat. Note that your PvP Rating can never be reduced below 0. Note also you can only gain PvP Rating when initiating combat.[/quote]
How much more will Gloat take? How much more will Honor protect? Hard to know if 50% is fair or not without knowing how it works with PvP ladder buffs.

Also, I feel your PvP rating should not be reduced below 1 because it would create a shield for pvpers if they got hit back to 0. so 1 should be the lowest rating after you have earned rating in a ladder.


[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]If you are defeated in combat while defending, you lose 1 PvP Rating (You cannot drop below 0 PvP Rating).[/quote]
Okay, but how much do you gain if you win? need to know that as well.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]Reduce the cost of the Protect XP upgrade (XP Lock). If you initiate any PvP attack, XP Lock will not work in PvP until the next ladder reset.[/quote]
Sounds great.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]Remove the PvP Protection upgrades. (With the exception of it being automatically applied to new players. We feel with the 75% reduction to xp loss for 0 PvP Rating and also the reduction in cost for the Protect XP upgrade these upgrades are no longer required.)[/quote]
Sounds good to me.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]PvP Rating can only be gained from a player who has been active in the last 48 hours.[/quote]
I think this should be increased to 72 hours. People wouldn't be able to hide behind inactivity then.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]Players can only attack other players within +/-10 of their virtual level, unless they have a PvP Rating greater than 0 and are within the top 10 of their PvP Band - they can then attack any of the other top 10 players in their band.[/quote]
Why is this still in the suggestions? The WHOLE point of the PvP bands was for a challenge. If you limit the people you can hit in the bands, then you have essentially killed the point of the bands (meaning, players that want a challenge to hit someone higher in level won't be able to OR people higher in the band for gear reasons are punished).

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]PvP Rating is gained with the following formula outwith the bounty board:
PvP Rating Gain = floor(Stamina Used * 0.5) + (floor(Stamina Used * 0.5) * (Opponent PvP Rating / MIN(1, Your PvP Rating))
The PvP Rating Gain is then capped by the amount of stamina used.[/quote]
How about just listing what is the minimum amount of rating that can be gained and the maximum amount of rating that can be gained? The formula doesn't need to be known really. You haven't given us the formula for ANYTHING ELSE in the game, so why are you starting now?

If that is the case, please tell us the exact spawn time for Titans, SEs, actual effect of Duelist Enhancement, etc. I don't think you want to go down that road.


[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]PvP Rating is gained with the following formula when completing bounties:
PvP Rating Gain = floor(Stamina Used * 0.1) * (Opponent Level / Your Level) + (10 * (Wins / (Wins + Loses)))
[/quote]
PvP rating SHOULD NOT be gained through completing bounties. They are not related areas of the game. It opens up the PvP Ladder to abuse, by players purposely waiting to post certain bounties so other people can "Secure" victories. Again, we don't need to know the code.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]Change the Gloat/Honor skill to take/protect more gold.[/quote]
Again, Gloat and Honor don't protect / take GOLD. Please re-read your suggestions next time

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]Addition of new bound potions for PvP rewards.[/quote]
Great idea, but it depends upon implementation. What buffs are we talking about and at what level / duration? need more information before we can evaluate.

[quote name="Hoofmaster"][*]Change Bounty Tickets so they are purchased with gold instead of Fallen Sword Points. (If this change goes ahead, your current Bounty Tickets will be converted back into Fallen Sword Points).[/quote]
Great idea, but what will be the exchange rate? If the exchange rate is more than an FSP (in value), then probably no. Would 100k for 100 tickets work for you guys?

#115 donalde

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:10

what i really think would be in the best interest of the game as far as the ladder is concerned is to have a ladder reset that does not reset the pvp points system, it will take a few weeks but those who do not wish to be a part of the pvp points ladder system can just withstand a few attacks, and eventually we will have a representitive spread of who pvp's and who does not, and those in their brackets will have to maintain their stature to receive the points they want.

having a reset that will make every a player a target for nothing more than pvp points that several of us will want for the unfortunate fact that they are still playing and enduring reset after reset will not do well for the majority of the players, and i really don;t think a 75% reduction in XP loss will mean a whole lot when everyone keeps getting attacked time after time after time. etc etc etc ....


This won't fix anything. I know levelers who are being attacked hourly because some PvP'r feels like attacking. There is nothing player can defend themself being hit. Even if PvP'r can't get any rating from leveler nor take their xp (due xp lock) they still keep attacking hourly just because they can. This is reality, and some loud PvP'rs in forum are actually doing this (or encourage their guildies doing this)

#116 abhorrence

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:11

And just to be constructive... (hehe) heres a pvp improvement:
Increase the bounty hit limit and EXP loss limit on bounties. WOOOT!!!

Just this year is was increased to 20 hits for a few days and undone as a colossal failure.

Additionally in the past the ability to take more then 5 levels did exist. This was also removed as 5 levels taken for any pvp attack is MORE then punishment enough. The real issue is that most people are in guilds that will not spare their stam, time and effort, and risk themselves for their guild mates.
There is so much emphasis placed on protecting a tiniest bit of exp and gold, and the value that some place on levels is so high that you can not rely on people that are suppose to be your friends to help.
Strictly leveling guilds create a culture that values experience and leveling so far above anything else that they disallow members to participate in PvP in an effort to thwart any potential issue that might require them to spend stam on any other aspect of the game, unless a profit can be made. This type of culture becomes insidious, feeding on itself and demonizing PvP as bad and immoral.
Then with each diminishing of PvP this culture stands on that and shouts, "See, they reduced experience loss because PvP is bad and we shouldn't have to suffer it any more!" When instead a mechanism to promote and teach PvP should be in place. A way to make it understood that it is a basic and valuable portion of the game. That enjoying a delevling party to support your friends is a healthy part of the game that provides lively interaction between all members involved.
Is this game too far gone to make these types of changes? Sadly, probably so.

#117 abhorrence

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:16

This won't fix anything. I know levelers who are being attacked hourly because some PvP'r feels like attacking. There is nothing player can defend themself being hit. Even if PvP'r can't get any rating from leveler nor take their xp (due xp lock) they still keep attacking hourly just because they can. This is reality, and some loud PvP'rs in forum are actually doing this (or encourage their guildies doing this)


Who? I see this all the time and challenge the person each time. Who is this happening to? As I see you are in Backwoods, if it is a guild mate of yours maybe you should get the whole story.

#118 fs_satis

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:16



And just to be constructive... (hehe) heres a pvp improvement:
Increase the bounty hit limit and EXP loss limit on bounties. WOOOT!!!

Just this year is was increased to 20 hits for a few days and undone as a colossal failure.

Additionally in the past the ability to take more then 5 levels did exist. This was also removed as 5 levels taken for any pvp attack is MORE then punishment enough. The real issue is that most people are in guilds that will not spare their stam, time and effort, and risk themselves for their guild mates.
There is so much emphasis placed on protecting a tiniest bit of exp and gold, and the value that some place on levels is so high that you can not rely on people that are suppose to be your friends to help.
Strictly leveling guilds create a culture that values experience and leveling so far above anything else that they disallow members to participate in PvP in an effort to thwart any potential issue that might require them to spend stam on any other aspect of the game, unless a profit can be made. This type of culture becomes insidious, feeding on itself and demonizing PvP as bad and immoral.
Then with each diminishing of PvP this culture stands on that and shouts, "See, they reduced experience loss because PvP is bad and we shouldn't have to suffer it any more!" When instead a mechanism to promote and teach PvP should be in place. A way to make it understood that it is a basic and valuable portion of the game. That enjoying a delevling party to support your friends is a healthy part of the game that provides lively interaction between all members involved.
Is this game too far gone to make these types of changes? Sadly, probably so.


Just going to paste what I said in a previous post, mainly just for the notion on why I think PvP shouldn't be forced.

I've dabbled in PvP, on the ladder, and just in general, and sure it has it's flaws, but why go out of your way to take things away that you've worked hard on, and that the majority of people like.

I'm talking specifically in regards to the option to opt-in and out of the ladder.

Now, I think that your logic lies in the proposed reduction of experience loss, but put this into perspective.

Assuming I'm not part of the ladder, how many times am I going to get hit in a week, assuming my gold count stays low, maybe once.

Now, that's 100%, but if we were to implement the new revisions, the amount of times I'm going to be attacked within a week, I can assure you will fall over 4, now if I did my math right, that's over the 100% I'm being attacked for now.

I see everyone chirping about how they don't want to lose their XP and what not, and I realize this is a semi-PvP oriented game, but think about this, I as a leveler, don't force you, the PvPer to gain levels, so why should you, the PvP be allowed to force me into the part of the game you like.

So all in all, it's honestly just common sense, if it's working, it doesn't need to be fixed.

#119 fs_nahkera

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:19

Why are you binding the rewards in PVP, I will not nor any PVP agree to this. It is not comparable to other rewards.

#120 fs_xvxevilxvx

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:21

but think about this, I as a leveler, don't force you, the PvPer to gain levels

Um...i take offense to this. Cuz as a pvper, if i wanna continue to harass you, i am FORCED to level =) Especially if you can run a couple delevel parties on me... LOL


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