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Official Suggestion : PvP Improvements (rev. 8)


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#121 fs_satis

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:22

but think about this, I as a leveler, don't force you, the PvPer to gain levels

Um...i take offense to this. Cuz as a pvper, if i wanna continue to harass you, i am FORCED to level =) Especially if you can run a couple delevel parties on me... LOL


Well you're wrong, I don't force you to regain your levels, that's your choice.

#122 donalde

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:23


This won't fix anything. I know levelers who are being attacked hourly because some PvP'r feels like attacking. There is nothing player can defend themself being hit. Even if PvP'r can't get any rating from leveler nor take their xp (due xp lock) they still keep attacking hourly just because they can. This is reality, and some loud PvP'rs in forum are actually doing this (or encourage their guildies doing this)


Who? I see this all the time and challenge the person each time. Who is this happening to? As I see you are in Backwoods, if it is a guild mate of yours maybe you should get the whole story.


Now you rised topic .. it was you and your current / past guild. HCS told your previous guild not to attack cetrtain member of Backwood .. So what you do is make new guild and then encourage your guildies to whack backwood member again hourly. Now you wanna get again chance to whack players hourly by encouraging HCS to remove PvP protection.

#123 fs_xvxevilxvx

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:24

Just as its your choice to sit there and take a beating at my hands

#124 abhorrence

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:24




[*]If you are defeated in combat while attacking, you will lose 50% of the equivalent PvP Rating you would have gained if you won the combat. Note that your PvP Rating can never be reduced below 0. Note also you can only gain PvP Rating when initiating combat.

50% really? Does that supersede the Honor buff or no? Meaning, will that 50% get reduced by Honor or no? Will the loss be greater if your using Gloat? Tough to comment without more information.
Reading the entire thing will show you Honor will not effect rating under these changes



[*]Players can only attack other players within +/-10 of their virtual level, unless they have a PvP Rating greater than 0 and are within the top 10 of their PvP Band - they can then attack any of the other top 10 players in their band.

Why is this still in the suggestions? The WHOLE point of the PvP bands was for a challenge. If you limit the people you can hit in the bands, then you have essentially killed the point of the bands (meaning, players that want a challenge to hit someone higher in level won't be able to OR people higher in the band for gear reasons are punished).
This only limits the # of people you can hit at first. If you are actively participating it opens up more targets.



[*]Change the Gloat/Honor skill to take/protect more gold.



#125 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:25

[/quote] promote and teach PvP should be in place. A way to make it understood that it is a basic and valuable portion of the game. That enjoying a delevling party to support your friends is a healthy part of the game that provides lively interaction between all members involved.
Is this game too far gone to make these types of changes? Sadly, probably so.[\quote]


Really ... there is a "place" for PvP ... the ladder. Also, is it healthy for PvP based guilds to intimidate players with a "healthy" de-leveling party .... this is bullying and should be removed from the game as all bullying should be.

This is the closest to a response from my previous post about "organized" De-leveling .... but how does HCS feel about it? Where did you go Hoof? Any Admin care to comment on this "issue" before changing the PvP rules?

#126 Windbattle

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:26



There is so much emphasis placed on protecting a tiniest bit of exp and gold, and the value that some place on levels is so high that you can not rely on people that are suppose to be your friends to help.
Strictly leveling guilds create a culture that values experience and leveling so far above anything else that they disallow members to participate in PvP in an effort to thwart any potential issue that might require them to spend stam on any other aspect of the game, unless a profit can be made. This type of culture becomes insidious, feeding on itself and demonizing PvP as bad and immoral.
Then with each diminishing of PvP this culture stands on that and shouts, "See, they reduced experience loss because PvP is bad and we shouldn't have to suffer it any more!" When instead a mechanism to promote and teach PvP should be in place. A way to make it understood that it is a basic and valuable portion of the game. That enjoying a delevling party to support your friends is a healthy part of the game that provides lively interaction between all members involved.


+100,000, I think you make some very good points. Especially, the part I put in bold.

#127 fs_xvxevilxvx

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:27

i totally didnt write that LOL

#128 boeffie

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:30

Rather then evolving into the general shouting matches which most PvP-related topics turn into, is there a way to just look at actual figures? Can anyone give any real figures?

I start at 0 rating, like everyone else, so there's no top 10 yet, can only hit someone within +/-10 levels, how profitable will it be for me to hit obvious non-pvpers with 0 or negative rating, knowing I can (and will) get bountied and by the time I get cleared might have a lot more rating to lose than I gained in the first place?

and on the other hand

How much XP do I lose from such a hit, (always keeping in mind these are VIRTUAL hits, I'm not losing any blood, or getting any bruises), how does it compare to losing against a VIRTUAL monster while leveling (or SE-hunting, titaning), and how many clicks does it take me to get this xp (and gold) back by whacking monsters who freely give me this stuff?



Looking at a usual xp-loss of vaguely 250k for a 10stam hit before, and gaining roughly 130k per hit (with doubler) during a usual hunt, am I looking at a possible XP-loss which HALF a hit against a creature to gain it back?


A little perspective might go a long way.

#129 fs_satis

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:34

Rather then evolving into the general shouting matches which most PvP-related topics turn into, is there a way to just look at actual figures? Can anyone give any real figures?

I start at 0 rating, like everyone else, so there's no top 10 yet, can only hit someone within +/-10 levels, how profitable will it be for me to hit obvious non-pvpers with 0 or negative rating, knowing I can (and will) get bountied and by the time I get cleared might have a lot more rating to lose than I gained in the first place?

and on the other hand

How much XP do I lose from such a hit, (always keeping in mind these are VIRTUAL hits, I'm not losing any blood, or getting any bruises), how does it compare to losing against a VIRTUAL monster while leveling (or SE-hunting, titaning), and how many clicks does it take me to get this xp (and gold) back by whacking monsters who freely give me this stuff?



Looking at a usual xp-loss of vaguely 250k for a 10stam hit before, and gaining roughly 130k per hit (with doubler) during a usual hunt, am I looking at a possible XP-loss which HALF a hit against a creature to gain it back?


A little perspective might go a long way.


well considering the revisions, you won't lose any rating for being attacked, so you have just as much incentive to attack obvious non pvp players as you do obvious pvp players, assuming you don't have a problem with being on the board, as most pvpers don't.

#130 Windbattle

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:35

I completely agree, there should be a few examples to demonstrate the new system.

Hopefully, you guys (developers) will test the new PvP system BEFORE releasing it into the game. Would save yourself a lot of headache down the road I feel. Plus, it might give you insight into what a player experiences.

#131 abhorrence

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:35

I see everyone chirping about how they don't want to lose their XP and what not, and I realize this is a semi-PvP oriented game, but think about this, I as a leveler, don't force you, the PvPer to gain levels, so why should you, the PvP be allowed to force me into the part of the game you like.

So all in all, it's honestly just common sense, if it's working, it doesn't need to be fixed.


I'm not forcing anyone, as you state it is part of the game. If you play any game, that game has rules. You can not play checkers and demand that no one jump you. You can not play chess and prevent people from taking your pieces. If you agree to play dodge ball, people will throw balls at you. You can't stand in the center of the court and say "It's not fair you hit me, I want to play a game where I can throw balls but I do not want to get hit!" If you agree to play a game, the rules of that game apply to YOU!! I didn't make this game any more then you did. However when I started playing I looked at the rules and decided if I wanted to play. All the "it's not fair" in the world isn't going to change that.

Honestly, this isn't a difficult concept. How's about using a little common sense.

#132 fs_eaus

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:36

[*]Remove the need for the PvP Ladder opt-in/out by reducing the xp loss by 75% when a player has 0 PvP Rating. (This does not apply to bounty attacks.)

[*]Remove the PvP Protection upgrades. (With the exception of it being automatically applied to new players. We feel with the 75% reduction to xp loss for 0 PvP Rating and also the reduction in cost for the Protect XP upgrade these upgrades are no longer required.)


Again, this would make PvP the one aspect of the game that every player is forced to take part in. Keep the opt in/out and protection options, many of us have no interest at all in being a part of this.

#133 hawkbomber

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:36

dump the pvp all together i dont want to be a part of this area of the game at all why should those of us who dont want to be in be forced to play in this part of the game now i dump real money into this game thier was 1 time i lost a whole 60 bux worth of gold that i paid for to put into my guild bank and from then on i spend very little cash anymore on this game the pvp area is 1 part you should not force anyone to play in for the reason above.

#134 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:37

Looking at a usual xp-loss of vaguely 250k for a 10stam hit before, and gaining roughly 130k per hit (with doubler) during a usual hunt, am I looking at a possible XP-loss which HALF a hit against a creature to gain it back?

Dont you mean 2 hits and with a Dblr isnt that 30 satm / hit .... or cost about 2 FSP to buy the stam to be back in the same place?

#135 Windbattle

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:38

well considering the revisions, you won't lose any rating for being attacked, so you have just as much incentive to attack obvious non pvp players as you do obvious pvp players, assuming you don't have a problem with being on the board, as most pvpers don't.


The bounty board should be filled up nicely now. It was almost DEAD, so it needed this in a way. It was UNPRECEDENTED for them to give PvP opt out for rating hits.

If they choose to bounty with a 75% reduction to XP Loss, expect a lot of delvling parties on levelers. PvPers like to hit, don't give them a reason to.

#136 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:39

[*]Remove the need for the PvP Ladder opt-in/out by reducing the xp loss by 75% when a player has 0 PvP Rating. (This does not apply to bounty attacks.)

[*]Remove the PvP Protection upgrades. (With the exception of it being automatically applied to new players. We feel with the 75% reduction to xp loss for 0 PvP Rating and also the reduction in cost for the Protect XP upgrade these upgrades are no longer required.)


Again, this would make PvP the one aspect of the game that every player is forced to take part in. Keep the opt in/out and protection options, many of us have no interest at all in being a part of this.



+1

#137 abhorrence

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:39

Or rather than "enduring" hits ... the preference could allow us to set our PvP rating to ZERO ... so there is no reward for PvPers from Non-PvPers :idea:


An attack on a 0 rated player is still an attack, this system takes into account those attacks and devalues them considerably but still gives credit for them.

#138 KitiaraLi

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:39

Remove the need for the PvP Ladder opt-in/out by reducing the xp loss by 75% when a player has 0 PvP Rating. (This does not apply to bounty attacks.)

Why is there a need to nerf down PvP? For 4 years y'all kept saying, there would NEVER be an opt out for PvP and finally someone presented it to you, in a way where you could profit from it - and you added it. Ever since, ppl have been fleeing the game like crazy, and those who have been hit for gold no longer think it is a part of the game, they fight with tooth n nails to get rid of it, since you HCS, have now planted the idea in their heads, that this game is no longer a PvP game. It is now a leveling game.

PvP Rating can only be gained once per ladder reset from a player who has a PvP Rating of 0. (This prevents players not wanting to participate from being hit hourly for PvP Rating).

If this semi-protection is to be implemented, what goes the other way? As in; will they lose more gold on all hits outside of rating hits?

You can only gain PvP Rating from a maximum of 5 players with 0 PvP Rating after each ladder reset.

More PvP protection, trying to prevent the same players from being hit several times. Again - WHY? There are plenty of reactions available in game for ppl to get their revenge on those who hit, that should suffice!

If you are defeated in combat while attacking, you will lose 50% of the equivalent PvP Rating you would have gained if you won the combat. Note that your PvP Rating can never be reduced below 0. Note also you can only gain PvP Rating when initiating combat.

So, I have high rating, hit someone with low rating and lose. I stand to gain little, so I lose even less? That's not really clever thought out is it?

If you are defeated in combat while defending, you lose 1 PvP Rating (You cannot drop below 0 PvP Rating).

This makes no sense to me at all... Skip the stupid rating idea, and have a scoreboard showing how much you PvP! 1 point on the scoreboard per 10 stam invested in PvP related kills (except for bounties - only 100 stams should count here, and with a modifier for lvl difference). The scoreboard cannot go down, so the active PvPer will be the one with a high score, those who wanna play around safely, will be low on the scoreboard.

Reduce the cost of the Protect XP upgrade (XP Lock). If you initiate any PvP attack, XP Lock will not work in PvP until the next ladder reset.

Yay - make it even cheaper for someone to protect 'emselves from PvP :roll: WHY? I thought the idea with the revision on PvP and especially the ladder, was to finally get it to show WHO PvPs, not how much protection the game can offer for those who do not.

Remove the PvP Protection upgrades. (With the exception of it being automatically applied to new players. We feel with the 75% reduction to xp loss for 0 PvP Rating and also the reduction in cost for the Protect XP upgrade these upgrades are no longer required.)

Finally you make some sense.

PvP Rating can only be gained from a player who has been active in the last 48 hours.

Agree ...to some extend. I think this could mean even less players online, since it will work as a semi pvp opt out to stay away from game, but - it can be tested.

Players can only attack other players within +/-10 of their virtual level, unless they have a PvP Rating greater than 0 and are within the top 10 of their PvP Band - they can then attack any of the other top 10 players in their band.

So - no range like the current ladder? And I could hit someone while they're sleeping and then lvl away preventing 'em from hitting back? How do you determine who wins with this in place?

Change the Gloat/Honor skill to take/protect more gold.

Makes sense - and make it be powerful. The gold theft rate has been nerfed so badly, it's hard to be a thief these days.

Addition of new bound potions for PvP rewards.

And gear? The old ones are getting... old, and there is missing stuff for higher lvls.

Change Bounty Tickets so they are purchased with gold instead of Fallen Sword Points. (If this change goes ahead, your current Bounty Tickets will be converted back into Fallen Sword Points).

A fine idea, since I assume it is to sink gold outta the game.


All in all; I hate this idea. It has turned into a rubber bat version of the current ladder joke, now offering up even more protection for the non-pvper.
It has gone back to a "rating up n down" system, instead of a scoreboard. Again the PvPer stand to lose her/his rating, to those who wanna play it safe (ladder players).

Go back to the drawing board, revise it - and this time around, listen to the PvPers!!! The non-pvpers may cry, whine and moan about it, but that you can blame on yourself, for caving in in the first place and handing 'em PvP protection! Do what is right for PvP, not what is right for the levelers! They will still be able to level, and they will still be able to get revenge on the PvPers - as they have been ever since the introduction of the bounty board!

No one can deny that we changed this game and influenced it in such a way that NO ONE could compete with us.. so much so that they changed the rules. ~Abhorrence, chosen founder of Cerulean Sins


#139 DemonGate

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:39

Rather then evolving into the general shouting matches which most PvP-related topics turn into, is there a way to just look at actual figures? Can anyone give any real figures?

I start at 0 rating, like everyone else, so there's no top 10 yet, can only hit someone within +/-10 levels, how profitable will it be for me to hit obvious non-pvpers with 0 or negative rating, knowing I can (and will) get bountied and by the time I get cleared might have a lot more rating to lose than I gained in the first place?

and on the other hand

How much XP do I lose from such a hit, (always keeping in mind these are VIRTUAL hits, I'm not losing any blood, or getting any bruises), how does it compare to losing against a VIRTUAL monster while leveling (or SE-hunting, titaning), and how many clicks does it take me to get this xp (and gold) back by whacking monsters who freely give me this stuff?



Looking at a usual xp-loss of vaguely 250k for a 10stam hit before, and gaining roughly 130k per hit (with doubler) during a usual hunt, am I looking at a possible XP-loss which HALF a hit against a creature to gain it back?


A little perspective might go a long way.


put perspective into a REAL $$$ amount........ everytime you (PvPer) hit me, I have to a) repair and b ) regain the lost xp.

Over time that will make a lot of $$$ lost.

Q: What does MY (non PvPer) XP have to do with you (PvPer)?

A: Absolutely nothing (except if I lose levels enough to go into a lower band, and then you couldn't hit me up anyways for points, and you'd be doing yourself out of a job!!!)

So why do you care? what is it to you If I dont lose XP and dont have to repair my gear??? you will get the PvP points that you want, and I lose nothing, everyone wins, if we can Opt-in OR ot-out (default) for XP

#140 vegasmark

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:40


well considering the revisions, you won't lose any rating for being attacked, so you have just as much incentive to attack obvious non pvp players as you do obvious pvp players, assuming you don't have a problem with being on the board, as most pvpers don't.


The bounty board should be filled up nicely now. It was almost DEAD, so it needed this in a way. It was UNPRECEDENTED for them to give PvP opt out for rating hits.

If they choose to bounty with a 75% reduction to XP Loss, expect a lot of delvling parties on levelers. PvPers like to hit, don't give them a reason to.



EXACTLY .... and .... there we go with the D-Leveling party thing again ... HCS???


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